Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

Who do you believe killed JonBenet?

  • Patsy

    Votes: 168 25.0%

  • John

    Votes: 44 6.6%

  • Burke

    Votes: 107 15.9%

  • an unknown intruder

    Votes: 86 12.8%

  • BR (head bash), then JR

    Votes: 4 0.6%

  • BR (head bash); then JR & PR (strangled/coverup)

    Votes: 113 16.8%

  • Knowing all I know, still on the fence.

    Votes: 55 8.2%

  • John, with an 'inside' accomplice

    Votes: 11 1.6%

  • I think John and Patsy caught him and he made her cover up

    Votes: 17 2.5%

  • I still have no idea

    Votes: 57 8.5%

  • patsy and john helped cover it up

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • Total voters
    671

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BOESP said:
This is where I am too dodie.

I'm on chapter six of Kolar's book. In the appendix is a section titled, "Alex Hunter's Affidavit Clearing Burke Ramsey, completed at the request of L. Lin Wood," dated 11 October 2000.
Click to expand...

Heyya BOESP, FMI,


Ramseys accuse show of defamation
June 17 2001
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/848576/Ramseys-accuse-show-of-defamation.html

"The Ramseys, who now live in Atlanta, took issue with the Court TV program "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey, Prime Suspects," which first aired Nov. 5, 1999.
Boulder authorities said before the show aired that Burke was not suspected in the murder, the lawsuit said, and the show was repeated even after Boulder District Attorney Alexander M. Hunter said in a sworn affidavit that the boy was not a suspect."
 
pistolina said:
So if I understand what you are suggesting – you think it is more likely that PR fibers were transferred to JR or something/someone, and then from him or that person/thing to JBR. And you find that more likely than a primary transfer from PR to JBR?

Patsy’s fibers were found in four places relating to the crime scene, not just the victim. JR must have been covered in PR fibers in order to get more of PR on the body than himself.
PR fibers were found:
1. in the paint tray
2. tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck
3. found on the blanket she was wrapped in
4. found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/july2000/deedric3.htm
Fiber Number
The number of fibers on the clothing of a victim identified as matching the clothing of a suspect is important in determining actual contact. The greater the number of fibers, the more likely that contact actually occurred between these individuals.
Fiber Location
Where fibers are found also affects the value placed on a particular fiber association. The location of fibers on different areas of the body or on specific items at the crime scene influences the significance of the fiber association.
snip
A primary transfer occurs when a fiber is transferred from a fabric directly onto a victim's clothing, whereas a secondary transfer occurs when already transferred fibers on the clothing of a suspect transfer to the clothing of a victim.

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm
Bruce Levin : (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "We believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, was found on the blanket she was wrapped in, was found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth. I have no evidence from any scientist that suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket."
Click to expand...


"Trujillo advised me that lab technicians had identified eight different types of fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used to cover JonBenét’s mouth. They included red acrylic, gray acrylic, and red polyester fibers that were subsequently determined by laboratory examination to be microscopically and chemically consistent to each other, as well as to fibers taken from Patsy Ramsey’s Essentials jacket. Further, fibers from this jacket were also matched to trace fibers collected from the wrist ligature, neck ligature, and vacuumed evidence from the paint tray and Wine Cellar floor."
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 228

also found on wrist ligature
and wine cellar floor.
 
Tadpole12 said:
"Trujillo advised me that lab technicians had identified eight different types of fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used to cover JonBenét’s mouth. They included red acrylic, gray acrylic, and red polyester fibers that were subsequently determined by laboratory examination to be microscopically and chemically consistent to each other, as well as to fibers taken from Patsy Ramsey’s Essentials jacket. Further, fibers from this jacket were also matched to trace fibers collected from the wrist ligature, neck ligature, and vacuumed evidence from the paint tray and Wine Cellar floor."
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 228

also found on wrist ligature
and wine cellar floor.
Click to expand...

Pasty R was in that cellar when JB was dying-no doubt in my mind!!!
 
Tadpole12 said:
Heyya BOESP, FMI,


Ramseys accuse show of defamation
June 17 2001
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/848576/Ramseys-accuse-show-of-defamation.html

"The Ramseys, who now live in Atlanta, took issue with the Court TV program "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey, Prime Suspects," which first aired Nov. 5, 1999.
Boulder authorities said before the show aired that Burke was not suspected in the murder, the lawsuit said, and the show was repeated even after Boulder District Attorney Alexander M. Hunter said in a sworn affidavit that the boy was not a suspect."
Click to expand...


Ahhhh...that explains the affidavit request. It was a smoke and mirrors prep for what, a law suit or to protect Burke from public scrutiny?

I don't see how Hunter making a certified statement that any one was "cleared" could mean much until the homicide is solved. Perhaps it may not have been solved at that point but was "resolved" so in closed chambers Hunter comes out smelling like a rose for such clever handling of the request. And why is the DA even working with the defense team? Perhaps for an exchange of some kind, like another interview with one of the Ramseys?

Hunter's affidavit is really of no effect in a court of law until guilt is determined and the case closed unless there are mitigating circumstances. Hmmmmmm

I still think at least one parent was involved in the staging and as a "prudent man" I see no reasonable doubt Patsy wrote the note.

To open a separate can of worms, it occurs to me that maybe JonBenet's possible "corporal cleansing" could have been done for reasons other than bed-wetting.
 
Tadpole12 said:
"Trujillo advised me that lab technicians had identified eight different types of fibers on the sticky side of the duct tape used to cover JonBenét’s mouth. They included red acrylic, gray acrylic, and red polyester fibers that were subsequently determined by laboratory examination to be microscopically and chemically consistent to each other, as well as to fibers taken from Patsy Ramsey’s Essentials jacket. Further, fibers from this jacket were also matched to trace fibers collected from the wrist ligature, neck ligature, and vacuumed evidence from the paint tray and Wine Cellar floor."
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 228

also found on wrist ligature
and wine cellar floor.
Click to expand...

Sounds like someone wearing a red and gray Essentials garment must have been in the area. :waitasec:
 
I still think patsy had on brown gloves and was clutching herself and carrying on praying then touching the items. She was still doing it during the 911 call. Even though they were very undemonstrative with each other i would think if john was present for the staging she would have been grabbing him and left even more of his shirt fibers. We don't even know what burke wore to the party or what pj's he might have changed into. He could have left the brown fibers or had a custom made shirt like his dad's. Does kolar give any hints about the fibers?
 
txsvicki said:
I still think patsy had on brown gloves and was clutching herself and carrying on praying then touching the items. She was still doing it during the 911 call. Even though they were very undemonstrative with each other i would think if john was present for the staging she would have been grabbing him and left even more of his shirt fibers. We don't even know what burke wore to the party or what pj's he might have changed into. He could have left the brown fibers or had a custom made shirt like his dad's. Does kolar give any hints about the fibers?
Click to expand...

txsvicki,
I seriously doubt Patsy wore gloves: how were those garrote knots to be tied?

The interesting aspect is JR's fibers found on JonBenet. Just why would he use his shirt to cleanup JonBenet?

he could have used just about anything else, e.g. the pink barbie nightgown, so why his shirt?

Someone call Columbo, this is becoming complicated, LOL!


.
 
BOESP said:
Sounds like someone wearing a red and gray Essentials garment must have been in the area. :waitasec:
Click to expand...

BOESP,
Nah, it was the intruder who had been sleeping with Patsy, behind John's back, thus causing secondary transfer. He knew Patsy liked John's black shirt so much he purchased one too, so he could wear it during their lovemaking. When the intruder bent over JonBenet next to the paint-tote a gust of wind blew in from the broken window, blowing fibers from the intruder onto the duct tape, as it was being readied to be placed over JonBenet's mouth.


.
 
OpenMind4U said:
Yes, we ALL do. Straight from Mr. Kolar, himself! Please go on the top of WS page and listen to Tricia's 'Crime Radio' interview with Mr. Kolar. At 97:34 mark, you'll hear 'cynic' asking this particular question and you'll hear the Kolar's response.

I'm glad you asked for the 'source'. Because this discussion will help many others to remember that urine on the carpet next to WC is the valid evidence, not the 'moot point':)....
Click to expand...

JK on
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2012/07/19/websleuths-radio

97:26
cynic: One real quick question,
just kind of a yes or no.
Do you know whether there was a urine stain on the carpet
just outside the wine cellar
indicating a possible post mortem release of urine?

James Kolar: I don't speak about that
in the evaluation of the evidence
but it, so my recollection
and I think that there was urine
down there on that pad of carpet.
And that's where they beleive that
she'd been strangled,
And that's where the bladder let go.
That's my recollection.
I could be wrong
but that's what I think I ....
...
JK: and on her stomach
if I remember too
from I think the stains in her underware suggest
that she was on her stomach
at the time when her bladder let go.
 
I don't see how touch dna could have been avouded without gloves and couldn't a slip knot be started fairly loose then pulled tight? And, why would the shirt have to be used for wiping. The fibers could have been in the crotch of the pantu from handling or on the towel like material to wipe the area and then gotten mingled with the blood. I put on a brown workglove and rubbed my fingertips across a wool garment then held them up in bright light. There were several wool fibers on the glove. John's garment was probably way more expensive than my wool but wool does shed easily especially if wet. If a wool shirt had been used to wipe wet blood and urine there would be lots of wool fibers instead of the towel consistent fibers.
 
UKGuy said:
txsvicki,
I seriously doubt Patsy wore gloves: how were those garrote knots to be tied?
[snip]
Click to expand...

Not sure if you were asking seriously or not but if she used the type gloves used in hair-color application she could still tie knots in a rope.
 
BOESP said:
Not sure if you were asking seriously or not but if she used the type gloves used in hair-color application she could still tie knots in a rope.
Click to expand...

BOESP,
If its those thin plastic ones, then possibly so. But the gardeners gloves, looping and fashioning knots, never mind the garotte, seems a bit more difficult.


.
 
I do believe gloves could be worn since nurses and doctors do it all the time, but was just trying to find a way the brown fibers fit in with the rest. Hands seem to be the most active thing used once the murder got to the point of the ligature unless someone was wearing brown cotton and he/she also had on vinyl gloves and avoided leaving touch dna.
 
txsvicki said:
I do believe gloves could be worn since nurses and doctors do it all the time, but was just trying to find a way the brown fibers fit in with the rest. Hands seem to be the most active thing used once the murder got to the point of the ligature unless someone was wearing brown cotton and he/she also had on vinyl gloves and avoided leaving touch dna.
Click to expand...


For those who've convinced themselves that JR/PR fibers can only be there from primary transfer, then it must follow the brown fibers can only be there from primary transfer. So they wore something brown, or they had an accomplice that we don't know about.
 
BOESP said:
Not sure if you were asking seriously or not but if she used the type gloves used in hair-color application she could still tie knots in a rope.
Click to expand...

Look at the photo pg 125 Kolar book: Looks like rubber gloves sitting on the edge of the sink in JB's room. Also, from book "JonBenet - The Police Files", pg 37 Patsy stated to Steve Thomas that she thought she colored her hair on Christmas (25th) afternoon.

So, I'd say Patsy would have easily had the rubber gloves she needed on hand in order to keep herself tidy during any part of the crime activities.
 
I'd think that vinyl gloves would be thought of for use in some aspects of the murder but maybe not too good for pulling tightly on a cord.
 
I buy big packets of throwaway latex gloves like dentists use.

You can do everything in those, they're like a second skin.
 
txsvicki said:
I do believe gloves could be worn since nurses and doctors do it all the time, but was just trying to find a way the brown fibers fit in with the rest...
Click to expand...
midwest mama said:
...Also, from book "JonBenet - The Police Files", pg 37 Patsy stated to Steve Thomas that she thought she colored her hair on Christmas (25th) afternoon.

So, I'd say Patsy would have easily had the rubber gloves she needed on hand in order to keep herself tidy during any part of the crime activities.
Click to expand...
SapphireSteel said:
I buy big packets of throwaway latex gloves like dentists use.

You can do everything in those, they're like a second skin.
Click to expand...
Two stagers:
Patsy - latex or hair-coloring gloves.
John - brown cotton gloves.
Since Patsy tied the cord IMO, her gloves worked for that. John's gloves worked for other staging purposes.
IMO
 
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