The case for murder

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IMO, the rope came from one of Jonah's two boats that are docked at the Glorietta Bay Marina: he does store the ski boards in protective bags on the deck of "HIS GLORY", formerly known as "ENATO"..........and the tow rope was either on that boat, or the smaller ski-type boat.

Interesting theory... I wonder if there are pictures somewhere of the rope on the boats to compare to the rope used. Who knows, like shoe prints, you identify them to an individual by the individual wear characteristics on the sole. I doubt that is true with the rope, but could be. And, I wonder if there is surveillance tape somewhere, an area that no one has been looking at.

Did Dina's house or her neighbors have any surveillance footage? I know in the missing family case near San Diego, the neighbors camera caught their vehicle leaving the house the night they disappeared.
 
Interesting theory... I wonder if there are pictures somewhere of the rope on the boats to compare to the rope used. Who knows, like shoe prints, you identify them to an individual by the individual wear characteristics on the sole. I doubt that is true with the rope, but could be. And, I wonder if there is surveillance tape somewhere, an area that no one has been looking at.

Did Dina's house or her neighbors have any surveillance footage? I know in the missing family case near San Diego, the neighbors camera caught their vehicle leaving the house the night they disappeared.

In order to access the docks (and there are only 2) at Glorietta Bay Marina, one must go through a security gate to which a key card is required. There is indeed a camera right at the gate. I don't know how long the images are retained, but I am sure that the dock manager could tell us.
 
IMO, the rope came from one of Jonah's two boats that are docked at the Glorietta Bay Marina: he does store the ski boards in protective bags on the deck of "HIS GLORY", formerly known as "ENATO"..........and the tow rope was either on that boat, or the smaller ski-type boat.

It is a very interesting thought. The Marina is little more than a mile from the mansion.

http://goo.gl/maps/Rt7pm
 
In order to access the docks (and there are only 2) at Glorietta Bay Marina, one must go through a security gate to which a key card is required. There is indeed a camera right at the gate. I don't know how long the images are retained, but I am sure that the dock manager could tell us.

I wonder if those key cards have their own record of when they are used?

My other thought is, did Dina still have a card? I'm still betting she had keys to the mansion. But then again, maybe Rebecca did answer the door or there was some access into the house, like balcony doors unlocked or a key kept in the garage or via tenants.
 
It's never been verified that the rope came from the mansion garage. SDSO only claims that there was a space on a shelf in the garage that could have been wide enough to hold a package of rope, that she possibly obtained a rope from that spot.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

That's not conclusive evidence, actually, its just a guess.
 
Have we been over this?

So, Rebecca died from asphyxiation by hanging, right? What about the rigor in her legs holding them in a bent position. Can some of you with medical knowledge chime in again? I'm trying to work out scenarios where it is possible that her legs formed rigor in that position and the lividity was on her back (IIRC).

Is it possible she was hanged but then soon after placed in some different position where rigor and lividity set, then she was moved before she was found and/or before 911 was called? I know early on we had long conversations about her possibly being hog tied also or tied to a chair.

Was Wecht's conclusion basically that she died by hanging, but was not dropped from the balcony?
 
It's never been verified that the rope came from the mansion garage. SDSO only claims that there was a space on a shelf in the garage that could have been wide enough to hold a package of rope, that she possibly obtained a rope from that spot.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/rz.pdf

That's not conclusive evidence, actually, its just a guess.

Thank you for bringing that up. When SDSO spoke of that "empty space on the garage shelf" at the news conference I almost choked. Who would ever know where anything is in their garage and i am even talking very organized garages which we happen to have. And to take it further, OF COURSE LE maintains it is from the garage because it was so SIMPLE for Rebecca to retrieve it right from the premises. The reverse being the rope was brought by the murderer(s) would not uphold the suicide ruling. That is a very weak link IMO.
 
Thank you for bringing that up. When SDSO spoke of that "empty space on the garage shelf" at the news conference I almost choked. Who would ever know where anything is in their garage and i am even talking very organized garages which we happen to have. And to take it further, OF COURSE LE maintains it is from the garage because it was so SIMPLE for Rebecca to retrieve it right from the premises. The reverse being the rope was brought by the murderer(s) would not uphold the suicide ruling. That is a very weak link IMO.

Yes, that raised a big red flag for me, as it probably did for others. That's like saying someone is guilty of murder because there was a space on a shelf that was big enough to hold a murder weapon in the murder suspect's home.

No prosecutor could win a case trying to connect a suspect to a murder weapon with such flimsy evidence.
 
So, Rebecca died from asphyxiation by hanging, right? What about the rigor in her legs holding them in a bent position. Can some of you with medical knowledge chime in again? I'm trying to work out scenarios where it is possible that her legs formed rigor in that position and the lividity was on her back (IIRC).

Is it possible she was hanged but then soon after placed in some different position where rigor and lividity set, then she was moved before she was found and/or before 911 was called? I know early on we had long conversations about her possibly being hog tied also or tied to a chair.

Was Wecht's conclusion basically that she died by hanging, but was not dropped from the balcony?

I'm a verified health care professional, so I'll chime in on this. I have more than a passing familiarity with neck structures, as I'm an anesthetist.

The pattern of tearing in Rebecca's sternocleidomastoid and infrahyoid ("strap") muscles would not occur with a simple constriction asphyxiation. It is difficult to tear these muscles in such a fashion. Her left SCM was torn nearly in half. That is very severe damage. IMO, almost certainly from her weight, torque, and forces she experienced as she violently fell from the neck. IMO, lifting a body from below would not cause that pattern of severe tearing in those muscles, in particular, in the infrahyoid muscles (which are deeper within the anterior neck structures).

As far as rigor and lividity, from the position broadcast of her body on the spreckles lawn, she was tilted to the side, not flat supine. When you tilt someone to the side who has wrists bound behind them, and ankles bound. the knees would tend to bend. Or if the legs were not purposefully straightened out, and she was lowered to weight on her feet, then torso lowered, her legs would not be fully extended. Either of these positions can cause bent knees, imo.

If she died around 3 am, which is Dr. Lucas' best estimate (and I agree with), then rigor would be just setting in around 7 am, and livor would still be moveable/ shiftable, producing the posterior back livor. Should she have also had booting in her feet? Seems reasonable to me, but I'll leave that interpretation up to forensic experts.

It's a pity and a professional shame that it took 12+ hours for the ME to arrive at the scene. Disgraceful, IMO. The window for determining algor mortis was lost by then. (Along with other observations that would have further narrowed time of death.)

One of the things about this case, and others (such as Dawna Natzke's case) is that there appears to be no procedure within law enforcement investigations for quality assurance. Within the medical profession, outside reviews of deaths occur regularly,and internal reviews of all sorts of mishaps occur daily. Sometimes insurance policies for hopsitals have a condition that outside reviews have to be accomplished in certain circumstances. Fires, for instance-- any hospital fire has to have a myriad of outside reviews, and inspection agencies reports. Airline mishaps have multiple outside agencies investigate what happened-- and not just crash situations. Outside review by impartial investigators in many industries is standard practice.

I have always been somewhat dumbfounded that law enforcement investigations do not have this process as part of their standard operating procedure, when there are significant questions about how a case investigation has unfolded. Take, for example, the George Zimmerman case-- if there had been a system to review the Sanford police department investigation, the situation may have unfolded quite differently than it did.

It seems to be, imo, institutionalized arrogance that says that if an investigation was done, the conclusions "must" be correct. Or we cherry pick "which" parts, or which investigations are correct, and which aren't, to suit our own opinions and objectives. That is a system construct that lends itself to bureaucracy and influence peddling at every level.

LE investigations are sacred cows that we as mere civilians can never question without significant push pack from entrenched bureaucracies. It is a grave threat and an insult to these institutions to suggest that they submit themselves for review of their work and investigations. That is partly why it is so difficult to petition these agencies for another review and investigation.

But it would take decades to effect changes and oversight, either through the statutory process, or at a national level. So it is what it is! Like our broken CPS systems-- this one is not an easy or quick fix. We have to find a way to work within the broken aspects of the system we have, not the one we wish we had!

Added thought:
The description of SCM and infrahyoid hemorrhages on the autopsy report, IMO, indicates a beating heart at the time of the neck muscle tearing. I ran that by some colleagues a long time ago last year when I wrote Rebecca's autopsy review for The Hinky Meter. I believe her heart was beating when the tearing occurred. She could have been conscious, or unconscious, or semiconscious, from for example, one or more blows to the head. I do not believe she was dead when she went over the balcony.
 
Thank you K_Z... so, in layman's terms, the rigor resulting in bent knees and lividity in the back occurred quite a while after she died and after she was cut down, laid on the ground. Somehow, I thought lividity set much more quickly than that?

Can you explain why you think she was murdered at 3 am?

If you don't mind another question: How do you explain the lack of a broke neck (I know that is probably not a medical term)? I do appreciate your explanation of the torn neck muscles.
 
Thank you K_Z... so, in layman's terms, the rigor resulting in bent knees and lividity in the back occurred quite a while after she died and after she was cut down, laid on the ground. Somehow, I thought lividity set much more quickly than that?

Can you explain why you think she was murdered at 3 am?

If you don't mind another question: How do you explain the lack of a broke neck (I know that is probably not a medical term)? I do appreciate your explanation of the torn neck muscles.

Here is a link to a pretty good medscape article about post mortem changes (rigor and livor mortis in particular). *Please note that there are actual pictures of cadavers in this article, so consider your own sensibilities before using the link.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680032-overview#aw2aab6b6

As far as Rebecca not having cervical fractures or dislocations, that is not at all uncommon in hangings (even long drop)-- in judicial hangings, suicides, and murders. A Hangman's fracture is the goal in judicial hangings, because it produces death rather instantaneously. But it doesn't always work that way, even with the best laid plans. Hanging victims often die from asphyxiation, and compression of the great vessels of the neck. This takes much longer, by the way, and is a particularly gruesome death.

Lots of reading is available on the web-- google "hanging and vertebral fractures" or "hanging and cervical fractures". Here's a few links.

Research has shown that such fractures are the exception in judicial hangings and the cause of death can be attributed to a range of head and neck injuries, particularly compression or rupture of the vertebral and carotid arteries leading to cerebral ischaemia. The rapidity of loss of consciousness and death is highly dependent upon knot positioning and the length of drop which has varied through the history of hanging as a capital punishment in the UK.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19306616
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman%27s_fracture"]Hangman's fracture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging"]Hanging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/826704-overview

Hope this is helpful! My opinion is Rebecca was alive when she went over the rail, and sustained a swinging long drop, which accounts for the injuries described in her autopsy report. I don't believe her pattern of injuries is consistent with a staging into the noose from below. I personally believe she was murdered, trussed up and tossed over the railing while still alive. I do believe it's possible she was strangled to unconsciousness before being tossed over (accounting for the extra ligature mark), or whacked on the head hard enough to cause stunning or unconsciousness.

Whichever scenario, I believe she was murdered. I believe the murder was completed by persons very well known to Rebecca, and in a rageful and vengeful manner. I believe those people are currently very worried they will be found out, and have gone on the offensive as pre-emptive self defense. For the life of me, I can't understand why someone who clearly got away with murder wouldn't just shut up and disappear, and be happy they got away with it. But mentally disturbed people don't think like normal people-- those with psychopathy are driven to do very odd things. Compulsively driven to blame others, etc.

Nothing adds up to suicide for me. I think if the SDSO were very confident in their ruling and investigation, they would not be so unwilling to have everything released and looked at by a second set of experts. Their very stubborn unwillingness speaks volumes to me. I believe it says that there were mistakes made, and they don't want to further expose the mistakes. They want the whole thing to go away. They are not at all interested in transparency of their investigation or decisions. Institutional and bureaucratic arrogance to the extreme.
 
Whichever scenario, I believe she was murdered. I believe the murder was completed by persons very well known to Rebecca, and in a rageful and vengeful manner. I believe those people are currently very worried they will be found out, and have gone on the offensive as pre-emptive self defense. For the life of me, I can't understand why someone who clearly got away with murder wouldn't just shut up and disappear, and be happy they got away with it. But mentally disturbed people don't think like normal people-- those with psychopathy are driven to do very odd things. Compulsively driven to blame others, etc.

Nothing adds up to suicide for me. I think if the SDSO were very confident in their ruling and investigation, they would not be so unwilling to have everything released and looked at by a second set of experts. Their very stubborn unwillingness speaks volumes to me. I believe it says that there were mistakes made, and they don't want to further expose the mistakes. They want the whole thing to go away. They are not at all interested in transparency of their investigation or decisions. Institutional and bureaucratic arrogance to the extreme.

So true, as evidenced in many murder cases. Instead of hiding away, the guilty parties sometimes keep themselves involved in the case. IMO, it seems in familial/domestic abuse killings, the killers try to keep involved by loudly accusing others of murder or blaming the victim for their own death.
 
Thank you for this thread. Finally, there is a place to discuss, theorize & post, only " RZ was murdered" as theory with evidence. Thank you to Salem for your Moderatorship, presence on this board and repeated requests for civility and TOS reminders.
 
It just occurred to me, duh, that the push to blame Rebecca for assaulting Max though there is absolutely no supporting evidence was done in an attempt to provide an impetus for why Rebecca may have killed herself.

This further reinforces the murder theory because the alleged erroneous suicide determination failed because sdso has no supporting evidence to prove their theory. WOW. I think they are in deep *** because of that, especially if people keep screaming for proof. Sdso can't even pull a rabbit out of their hat on this one. There is absolutely no proof or evidence of a suicide here

They could not prove Rebecca was depressed so they made up not existent journals and conversations

Rebecca could tie the knots and do what they say she did was not proven

No suicide note so they tried to use the message on the door but knew it would not convince anyone so they painted over it

Tried to say Rebecca's injuries came from banging against the plants but couldn't prove that so the removed the plants

Tried to say Jonah left a voice mail that was the trigger for her suicide but failed because the voice mail doesn't exist

Tried to say Rebecca killed her self because Jonah was going to dump her but failed because Rebecca shared that she was thinking of leaving after the summer if Jonah did not start sticking up for her

Tried to to say Rebecca killed herself because she hurt Max and was afraid the police were coming for her failed because there is no evidence that she hurt Max or that the police were after her

This case keeps veering off course and the newest and latest tactics appear to try and sell the sdso suicide theory. This was murder and someone is working overtime to try and convince people that Rebecca killed herself, imo

There probably a lot more examples. Thoughts anyone?
 
It just occurred to me, duh, that the push to blame Rebecca for assaulting Max though there is absolutely no supporting evidence was done in an attempt to provide an impetus for why Rebecca may have killed herself.

This further reinforces the murder theory because the alleged erroneous suicide determination failed because sdso has no supporting evidence to prove their theory. WOW. I think they are in deep *** because of that, especially if people keep screaming for proof. Sdso can't even pull a rabbit out of their hat on this one. There is absolutely no proof or evidence of a suicide here


free... I think this theory has extreme merit! Seeing what has gone on in the past few months, it is easy to see that all this bruhaha could be to create some motive for Rebecca to commit suicide. Otherwise, there is nothing. As far as we know, Rebecca did not know how serious Max's condition is nor think she was responsible. Maybe she did know, but I can't buy at all that Rebecca knew and Dina didn't. We are also seeing all the hoogieboogie (sorry, I'm feeling colorful today) surrounding what the doctors said and when and so forth per Dina and Nina. None of that is sitting right.
 
Sorry if this has been brought up in this thread. I have been thinking about her taped ankles, T shirt in her mouth- under a case for murder

<<According to a newly released autopsy report, investigators found four separate injuries to the top of her head, a piece of shirt stuffed in her mouth, and remnants of sticky tape around her ankles.
>>http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...de-at-shacknai-mansion-ruling-questioned.html

Remnants of sticky tape around her ankles....why? where is that tape? When was it removed ? -More evidence she was restrained- and gagged and murdered

This shows even more and more... tampering with the crime scene, and destroying evidence. :banghead:
 
free... I think this theory has extreme merit! Seeing what has gone on in the past few months, it is easy to see that all this bruhaha could be to create some motive for Rebecca to commit suicide. Otherwise, there is nothing. As far as we know, Rebecca did not know how serious Max's condition is nor think she was responsible. Maybe she did know, but I can't buy at all that Rebecca knew and Dina didn't. We are also seeing all the hoogieboogie (sorry, I'm feeling colorful today) surrounding what the doctors said and when and so forth per Dina and Nina. None of that is sitting right.

I totally agree with this....I wonder if this is why these boards have been so active in the past few months. If we can prove it's suicide, then there is no wrong doing by anyone? This is sick and wrong and inflammatory. Taking a life is not ok, even if some people believe that it is justified. (BTW--in this country, it's never ok to take a life, vigilante justice is NEVER ok).

I personally don't believe that this was a suicide. I don't think they've proved that. Most of the links provided lead back to the SDSO which IMO is not a definitive link because I believe their investigation was horribly flawed. In BOTH cases.

I am of the opinion that there is a definite resurgence in the attempt to shut down any discussion of this case.

Also...there is NO WAY that RZ knew more about MS's condition than DS did. That is just insane to suggest. HOW would she know, she was banned from the hospital and wasn't able to visit MS.

Based on what is available... RZ loved that child. It's a very difficult position to be in. The father's GF, an angry ex wife and mother, child in ICU. That poor boy, I wish we knew what happened to him. I also wish we knew what happened to RZ. This is a nasty situation all around. Open both of the cases and tell the truth so that both of these families can have some peace.

Always, MOO
 
Sorry if this has been brought up in this thread. I have been thinking about her taped ankles, T shirt in her mouth- under a case for murder

<<According to a newly released autopsy report, investigators found four separate injuries to the top of her head, a piece of shirt stuffed in her mouth, and remnants of sticky tape around her ankles.
>>http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...de-at-shacknai-mansion-ruling-questioned.html

Remnants of sticky tape around her ankles....why? where is that tape? When was it removed ? -More evidence she was restrained- and gagged and murdered

This shows even more and more... tampering with the crime scene, and destroying evidence. :banghead:

I believe this is HUGE. Where the heck is that tape? Why was it there in the first place?

It has been said that it is band aid residue...ok well she didn't have any cuts there so why in the world would she have a band aid somewhere that she didn't have an injury?!?

FOUR SEPARATE injuries to the top of her head. I can't imagine, even if she managed to hop, hop, hop while turning off lights and closing doors (shouldn't there be more foot prints, her turning around and closing that door on the balcony if she truly did that) that after she manged to tip herself over the balcony leaving only toe prints that she did so with enough force to hit her head FOUR TIMES. Seriously, with the tee shirt wrapped around her neck, she would have very little breath...if any. But STILL she managed to do all these tasks.

I admit, someone as fit as RZ seems like a superwoman to me, but I still don't believe for A SECOND that she would be capable of doing all these things while bound and gagged.

Not to mention the questions of all the "extra" items, the painted message, the over turned chair, the red blanket, two knives, plastic gloves that didn't have RZ's DNA, a dryer sheet that is there for no reason and all that "unusable DNA". Plus the fact that although there were many people in and out of the mansion in those few days prior to this, only RZ and one "possible" child's finger print were in the room. Thanks to the San Diego Medical Examiner for leaving her in the California Sun for 13 hours. How much of the "unusable DNA" might have been viable had they taken the time to preserve it?

No sale. I don't buy it.
 
I believe this is HUGE. Where the heck is that tape? Why was it there in the first place?

It has been said that it is band aid residue...ok well she didn't have any cuts there so why in the world would she have a band aid somewhere that she didn't have an injury?!?

FOUR SEPARATE injuries to the top of her head. I can't imagine, even if she managed to hop, hop, hop while turning off lights and closing doors (shouldn't there be more foot prints, her turning around and closing that door on the balcony if she truly did that) that after she manged to tip herself over the balcony leaving only toe prints that she did so with enough force to hit her head FOUR TIMES. Seriously, with the tee shirt wrapped around her neck, she would have very little breath...if any. But STILL she managed to do all these tasks.

I admit, someone as fit as RZ seems like a superwoman to me, but I still don't believe for A SECOND that she would be capable of doing all these things while bound and gagged.

Not to mention the questions of all the "extra" items, the painted message, the over turned chair, the red blanket, two knives, plastic gloves that didn't have RZ's DNA, a dryer sheet that is there for no reason and all that "unusable DNA". Plus the fact that although there were many people in and out of the mansion in those few days prior to this, only RZ and one "possible" child's finger print were in the room. Thanks to the San Diego Medical Examiner for leaving her in the California Sun for 13 hours. How much of the "unusable DNA" might have been viable had they taken the time to preserve it?

No sale. I don't buy it.

I don't think it's accurate to even suggest there was no usable DNA given LE's admission that they did not test all DNA found at the scene. For instance, they didn't feel it was necessary to test the blood in the hallway in front of the guestroom door because they assumed it was Rebecca's and they assumed she was menstruating. This was based on their belief that nobody else was in the home at the time of Rebecca's death, so the blood must have been Rebecca's. Therefore, no need to test it, even to confirm whether it was menstrual blood. And then there's the underwear in the guesthouse wastebasket and the clump of hair in the shower. If those items weren't tested, imagine what other potential evidence may have been ignored.

All of the above is just my opinion.
 
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