Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 2

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sreshowtime said:
I still continue to wonder if her purse, from that day ( or any purse) and her wallet, her identification, credit or debit cards, and a passport, if she has one, or SS card and birth certificate......if one or any of those items are missing...
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The police will not confirm. It's part of evidence. Just to let you know how long that can take? When our Megan went missing in 2010, and we searched for her for 6 months, her mom was never told if her purse was left behind in the hotel room and/or if she had her earrings and jewelry. She was found a victim of Gilgo Beach (along with 3 other victims and then 6 more bodies found) It has been 2 years since and to this day they still will not tell her mom if they have her purse or jewelry. It's part of the evidence and will continue to be held until an arrest is made and then a trial. Only after will it be available for release and it is possible even then it will not be released but at least by that point (trial) we will know if they have it or not.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
It is always very frustrating when the police halt searches...however as said previously if a professional SAR Team was conducting the actual search then Jillians excellent work in organizing it may have been approved.
Click to expand...
~ respectfully snipped for space.

No. This search was NOT halted by the police. Nor was it disapproved. We must respectfully agree to disagree. I spoke to Lt. Cobb prior to finalizing the search, and although he discouraged the search at first, he said to make sure that two things were done: 1. if anyone sees anything suspicious, STOP and immediately call 911; and 2. be safe. He knew when and where we were meeting, and stated that he understood the communities need to do *something*, *anything* to help. Period.

Again, LE did NOT stop this search, nor did (do) they have the power to do so unless there is an identified crime scene area.

Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would
 
Janeumayer said:
Lavanda, Do you know why Jennifer stopped cooking for the family? Who tended to the kids dinners?
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If I answer your question that would be an assumption on my part or it would be hearsay-assumption on Remy's part...so it will not be Jennifer's reasons and that would make it not a "factual" part of the case. I hope that makes sense? What I can say, however, is the same that Remy has stated and that is a drastic change transpired in the few months prior to her disappearance.
 
<modsnip>

Someone earlier wrote about the Bystander Effect:

"The term bystander effect refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the number of people present, the less likely people are to help a person in distress. When an emergency situation occurs, observers are more likely to take action if there are few or no other witnesses." http://psychology.about.com/od/socia...ndereffect.htm

Here's a somewhat weak example:

I put a status on the Help Find Jennifer FB page (that has well over 400 likes, and well over 1,000 "talking abouts") asking if someone could contact the owner of an electronic billboard that's located on the closest local interstate (I88) to Jennifer's community. I provided the contact person's phone number and explained that I was away for a conference for a couple of days and unable to call myself during business hours.

Do you know how many people called that number to ask about the billboard?

0.
 
<modsnip>
both van and phone were both found in a very public place- with potentially many people passing by as both were dropped. The mall is also a very busy public place, as are charity and public events, such as marathons and triathalons. People are less likely to notice a problem.
 
Jilllian said:
Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would
Click to expand...


Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, YES and YES to both questions.
 
So often in missing persons cases, LE DOES indicate if the cell phone, ID, keys, bank account activity occurred with the missing person. Why in the world would it matter whether or not JR's purse and other belongings were found? I understand about evidence, but stating what was or was not found shouldn't jeopardize the criminal part of the case.

Just wondering as I got caught up tonight. Sounded off-kilter to me, that's all. TIA.
 
Annie1004 said:
So often in missing persons cases, LE DOES indicate if the cell phone, ID, keys, bank account activity occurred with the missing person. Why in the world would it matter whether or not JR's purse and other belongings were found? I understand about evidence, but stating what was or was not found shouldn't jeopardize the criminal part of the case.

Just wondering as I got caught up tonight. Sounded off-kilter to me, that's all. TIA.
Click to expand...

Annie, we don't know the answer to that either. All I know in every case and every detective or agency that oversees a case...they each have the lead and make the decisions as to what they want to divulge and what they don't. There is no set rule. I will say to that...Those that do keep all close to the vest do tend to be the better detectives as they are taking into account every detail and building their case by crossing all of their t's and dotting their i's. So that is a good thing.
 
momrids6 said:
I can say- both van and phone were both found in a very public place- with potentially many people passing by as both were dropped. The mall is also a very busy public place, as are charity and public events, such as marathons and triathalons. People are less likely to notice a problem.
Click to expand...

Ok. So your point...if I am thinking correctly..(and don't take my word for this with Mods..we'll let them decide.) but if what you are thinking is....if someone saw something and did nothing...that would fall under the Bystander Effect? And yes...you are absolutely 100% correct. People who do not act or react may have inner fears that they too can be harmed or be brought into a situation they don't want to be a part of...so yes. I see your point...the unfortunate part...there are many people who witness something and just don't want to get involved. Plain and simple. No underlying reasons. And others who fear they may be harmed if they speak out. Have you ever watched this video? We have it on our site under the safety section. I think everyone should watch it ...it is enlightening. Not sure if I should say OT...but do take a moment to watch: Bystander Effect
Scroll down to video number 5: http://lostnmissing.org/keeping-safe/
 
Jilllian said:
Here's an example:

I put a status on the Help Find Jennifer FB page asking if someone could contact the owner of an electronic billboard that's located on the closest local interstate (I88) to Jennifer's community. I provided the contact person's phone number and explained that I was away for a conference and unable to call myself during business hours.

Do you know how many people called that number to ask about the billboard?

0.
Click to expand...

I know. Sad. Very sad:( I see that when we post missing posters. Ever check the shares? Beautiful and attractive people get tons of shares. I did two shares last week side by side. Over 145 people shared the beautiful person...who invariably was a runaway....and a very disheveled man who is in need of urgent medical attention as he 57 and emotionally at the age of a four year old. Know how many shares he had? 2. So my next post I literally "called it out"..........and he received 60 shares:) By the way, the beautiful 17 year old was located safe. She was a runaway.
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
It is always very frustrating when the police halt searches...however as said previously if a professional SAR Team was conducting the actual search then Jillians excellent work in organizing it may have been approved. Just as an example...you do know that not all physical evidence is allowed to be entered into a criminal trial, correct? So if invariably this becomes a criminal trial...I am positive that nobody would ever want some crucial evidence thrown out that could have convicted someone. Many times crucial evidence is thrown out because it was not collected or followed by appropriate channels and chain of custody. I cannot begin to tell you how many searches for missing loved ones are turned DOWN by law enforcement even when it costs them nothing, a Professional SAR team will be conducting the search and the family themselves give their blessings. Believe me...too many.
Click to expand...
I defer to your expertise...

But should a loved one of mine be missing... I would hope there are people like Jillian and her crew who will bust fanny to find them... Then worry about the evidence being held up in court when/if the time came...

To prevent searches (which I don't see LE doing until being inundated with inappropriate responses by vocal few) in fear of possible legal red tape is incredibly backwards to me...

additionally... I have been following many cases where searches were formed day after day for a missing person... And was even very close to joining one... Which were handled much like the one we are referring to...

Sierra LaMar, Noelle Paquette, the list goes on...

and, again, the search for Jennifer would not have been held with searchers going willy-hilly into unsafe areas...

JMO
 
Jilllian said:
~ respectfully snipped for space.

No. This search was NOT halted by the police. Nor was it disapproved. We must respectfully agree to disagree. I spoke to Lt. Cobb prior to finalizing the search, and although he discouraged the search at first, he said to make sure that two things were done: 1. if anyone sees anything suspicious, STOP and immediately call 911; and 2. be safe. He knew when and where we were meeting, and stated that he understood the communities need to do *something*, *anything* to help. Period.

Again, LE did NOT stop this search, nor did (do) they have the power to do so unless there is an identified crime scene area.

Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would
Click to expand...


Jillian, what do you mean LE did not halt the search? Who halted it then? Just trying to understand.
In answer to your questions. My responses:
1. No. Once my loved one was located I would expect justice if it were not an accident and I would not want that chance to be ruined. (By the way, prior to working in the field I would have said yes. But with knowledge now? no.)
2. Absolutely. However I know many families that do not and could not and they depend on others to do it for them.
 
Jilllian said:
~ respectfully snipped for space.

No. This search was NOT halted by the police. Nor was it disapproved. We must respectfully agree to disagree. I spoke to Lt. Cobb prior to finalizing the search, and although he discouraged the search at first, he said to make sure that two things were done: 1. if anyone sees anything suspicious, STOP and immediately call 911; and 2. be safe. He knew when and where we were meeting, and stated that he understood the communities need to do *something*, *anything* to help. Period.

Again, LE did NOT stop this search, nor did (do) they have the power to do so unless there is an identified crime scene area.

Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would
Click to expand...
_____________
An example of what is going right now with another missing person: the community is rallying:

Facebook page rallies volunteers to search for missing Lambertville bartender;About 140 to 160 people showed up this morning at the Lambertville CVS to help look for Sarah Majoras, 39, after a longtime friend formed the Facebook page "Find Sarah Majoras." Page creator Joe Ujj said he wanted the page to dispel rumors circulating about the search and to enlist the help of members of the community.

The crowd met with police so as not to interfere with investigations, Ujj said, then broke into groups of 10 to start searching different areas of Lambertville. They reported back to a command center set up at the Rago Arts and Auction Center on North Main Street, he said.


http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/hunterdon-county/express-times/index.ssf/2013/01/post_32.htmlon
 
momrids6 said:
_____________
An example of what is going right now with another missing person: the community is rallying:

Facebook page rallies volunteers to search for missing Lambertville bartender;About 140 to 160 people showed up this morning at the Lambertville CVS to help look for Sarah Majoras, 39, after a longtime friend formed the Facebook page "Find Sarah Majoras." Page creator Joe Ujj said he wanted the page to dispel rumors circulating about the search and to enlist the help of members of the community.

The crowd met with police so as not to interfere with investigations, Ujj said, then broke into groups of 10 to start searching different areas of Lambertville. They reported back to a command center set up at the Rago Arts and Auction Center on North Main Street, he said.


http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/hunterdon-county/express-times/index.ssf/2013/01/post_32.htmlon
Click to expand...

Yes... Another example of community involvement in searches... While following advice of officials.... !
 
Lavanda Dolce said:
Jillian, what do you mean LE did not halt the search? Who halted it then? Just trying to understand.
In answer to your questions. My responses:
1. No. Once my loved one was located I would expect justice if it were not an accident and I would not want that chance to be ruined. (By the way, prior to working in the field I would have said yes. But with knowledge now? no.)
2. Absolutely. However I know many families that do not and could not and they depend on others to do it for them.
Click to expand...

It's okay ~

The police didn't stop our search. *I* stopped it. Someone threw a snit fit about the search and encouraged a bunch of people to call LE to have them stop it. As a result, the police department was inundated with phone calls asking if the search was on or off, and whether they could or couldn't search.
In addition, I had recently found out that the husband was going to be there, as well as the media, not so coincidentally, in my opinion. Since I didn't know how Jennifer's mother, father, or sister would feel about being caught off guard with a camera in their face, it was ultimately cancelled (but with rescheduling at the forefront of our minds, where it remains right now).

Thanks for answering the questions, Lavanda.
I'd like to see what everyone else's answers are.
That would be interesting.
 
momrids6 said:
_____________
An example of what is going right now with another missing person: the community is rallying:

Facebook page rallies volunteers to search for missing Lambertville bartender;About 140 to 160 people showed up this morning at the Lambertville CVS to help look for Sarah Majoras, 39, after a longtime friend formed the Facebook page "Find Sarah Majoras." Page creator Joe Ujj said he wanted the page to dispel rumors circulating about the search and to enlist the help of members of the community.

The crowd met with police so as not to interfere with investigations, Ujj said, then broke into groups of 10 to start searching different areas of Lambertville. They reported back to a command center set up at the Rago Arts and Auction Center on North Main Street, he said.


http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/hunterdon-county/express-times/index.ssf/2013/01/post_32.htmlon
Click to expand...

Yes and in that case there is an entire team of professional searchers to guide them.
 
Jilllian said:
It's okay ~

The police didn't stop our search. *I* stopped it. Someone threw a snit fit about the search and encouraged a bunch of people to call LE to have them stop it. As a result, the police department was inundated with phone calls asking if the search was on or off, and whether they could or couldn't search.
In addition, I had recently found out that the husband was going to be there, as well as the media, not so coincidentally, in my opinion. Since I didn't know how Jennifer's mother, father, or sister would feel about being caught off guard with a camera in their face, it was ultimately cancelled (but with rescheduling at the forefront of our minds, where it remains right now).

Thanks for answering the questions, Lavanda.
I'd like to see what everyone else's answers are.
That would be interesting.
Click to expand...

Ok. I was not aware. I thought LE halted the search. I have no had any discussions with LE or with Remy about searches, as yet. Why? Because until they have a lead/tip or can narrow from forensics as to where a search should be conducted...We do not conduct searches. We subcontract for professional SAR teams that PD approves us. Most have their lists of who they want to work with. At the same time we can recommend as we do have those we will refer when they do not or when more searches could be used. I have one case now that I bite my nails daily as time is now past a year and LE will ONLY use their own searchers and I have teams across the country that are highly skilled, professional and have excellent results that have begged to come on to the case to search...and at no charge to LE...and they still refuse:(
 
IHAVENOCLUE said:
I defer to your expertise...

But should a loved one of mine be missing... I would hope there are people like Jillian and her crew who will bust fanny to find them... Then worry about the evidence being held up in court when/if the time came...

To prevent searches (which I don't see LE doing until being inundated with inappropriate responses by vocal few) in fear of possible legal red tape is incredibly backwards to me...

additionally... I have been following many cases where searches were formed day after day for a missing person... And was even very close to joining one... Which were handled much like the one we are referring to...

Sierra LaMar, Noelle Paquette, the list goes on...

and, again, the search for Jennifer would not have been held with searchers going willy-hilly into unsafe areas...

JMO
Click to expand...

Well...we have to agree to disagree. And I will also say...and please don't take this wrong...but you honestly cannot say what you would do or wouldn't do until you are in the exact situation. What we think now and say we would do or feel could entirely change when such a tragedy befalls us. I am 100% in full support of a search for Jennifer...again...with police involvement and a professional SAR team in attendance to give instructions to volunteers if they need them. So my understanding is Jennifer is registered at CUE...that is what they do all of the time...has anyone addressed the searches with them?
 
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