The case for murder

DeDee said:

It's no wonder the simulated bed moved farther along than the guest room bed. It appears to me that the simulated bed has roller wheels attached to the legs. Also, the carpet is obviously not as plush as the guest room's carpet.

While I do not profess to be a wizard at physics, the manner in which the rope is tied to the guest room's bed appears, to me, that the corner attached would have lifted off the carpet as it moved forward before landing at its final resting spot some 7 1/2" away; therefore, not making any drag marks in the carpet along the way during the fatal jump.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8671.jpg

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I see either white wheels or white stoppers underneath the actual Spreckels mansion bed.

IP, you've toured the renovated Spreckels mansion was being showcased a few months ago. Did you notice if the bed was still in the murder room, and whether or not the bed had wheels?

Mrs. Holmes said:

NR's Son......

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Nina-Romano/1823829120

It is the computer searches that bother me.... ALOT and who had access to the house to do them.

It could have been NR's son who killed RZ. His condition of Asperger's Syndrome and Max's accident could have pushed him into taking action.

What if NR's son was there the morning of Max's accident... maybe he was the one taking a picture of MS when he was playing on the balcony with the scooter. The "planking" picture. Maybe he was afraid either XZ or RZ would "Tell" eventually that he was there and in affect caused Max's accident. What if he decides to get rid of RZ because she can tell everyone what happened. XZ is safe on a plane home but RZ is home alone and NR's son has a good part of the day to plan her demise. Or maybe he is just enraged that Max is so badly hurt and blames RZ. Again, the message on the door is sarcastic.....

The kinky searches and the naked body.... they speak of a teenage boy... and the message on the door.... so cold.... teenage boy with Asperger's who feels threatened that his caregivers will turn on him if they find out he was the cause of MS's accident? Or simply the agony of feeling that RZ harmed MS deliberately. NR's son certainly would have heard much about this while staying with DS during this tragic time. Was this his way of ... a teenage's boy with aperger's way of "taking care" and handling the situation. The confusion of the sexually attractive RZ, the expected demise of MS... the strong emotions of likely both DS and NR that RZ causes MS's death.... filter that through the mind of a teenage boy with Asperger's.... he had motive and time to do this...

Maybe NR was actually at the mansion looking for her missing SON! Or Maybe NR said she was at the house to cover for her SON?

Darn this case is weird.... but this is the first suspect I could tie in the kinky searches on the Mansion computer with....

I sure hope he is questioned!!!

You might want to read up on Asperger's.... this is the wiki link....
Asperger syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I'm not defending Nina's adult son Guy Jr., but his being a computer techie (according to an insider) and having Aspergers doesn't necessarily equate to his being a horny, psychotic nut prone towards malicious behavior with kinky sexual inclinations nor does it mean he was physically present during Max's accident.

I think if there is physical evidence Guy Jr. was present during Max's fall and/or were actually eyewitnessed (as Dina was by a family of bikers) at the Spreckels mansion on Tuesday, then we can speculate as to his involvement in the staging of the crime scene, and/or participation in Rebecca's murder. But as it stands, I do not see anything physically concrete that points to his culpability in the heinous crime. As such, I exclude him as a perpetrator and accomplice in Rebecca's murder and the crime scene staging.

DeDee said:

It's no wonder the simulated bed moved farther along than the guest room bed. It appears to me that the simulated bed has roller wheels attached to the legs. Also, the carpet is obviously not as plush as the guest room's carpet.

While I do not profess to be a wizard at physics, the manner in which the rope is tied to the guest room's bed appears, to me, that the corner attached would have lifted off the carpet as it moved forward before landing at its final resting spot some 7 1/2" away; therefore, not making any drag marks in the carpet along the way during the fatal jump.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8671.jpg

Click to expand...

Hi DeDee - Neither of the beds had wheels as per attached photos. Actually the pile carpeting in the reenactment looks more plush than the "hanging room" carpet, but am not an expert. Legs in both are sitting directly on the carpeting, no cups or protection.

I believe both beds jumped. It was the distance the bed jumped...

bourne said:

I see either white wheels or white stoppers underneath the actual Spreckels mansion bed.

IP, you've toured the renovated Spreckels mansion was being showcased a few months ago. Did you notice if the bed was still in the murder room, and whether or not the bed had wheels?

Click to expand...

No, all of the furniture in the main house was removed. The "hanging room" was reconfigured, and there isn't any furniture in there.

STS-135 said:

Just noticed that my post, regarding how the impressions on Rebecca's left calf and also her forearm IMHO point to having died while being tied to the chair, has been deleted. So I thought to post a summary of the on-topic content of an otherwise rather long post. Sorry about that.

In a nut shell, to me it looks like the impressions were made by the chair, but only a small portion of the chair is visible so it's really hard to see. Also zoom in on the bedspread and let me know if you don't also see what appears to be a footprint on it on the lower right hand portion. And possibly also either spotting by some kind of liquid, or partial footprints.
(respectfully snipped)

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BBM - The spotting appears to be a flower pattern within the fabric of the red comforter as per attached. Also inverted the image to better see how the flower pattern continues up and beyond, albeit faintly.

As to those markings on RZ's ankles and wrists, IMO they are marks from the weaving in the rope, the impressions made from her body weight resting on them. The one showing her ankles, apparently she had been flipped to the other side already since can see brick walkway in background. There are other "suspicious" markings in those photos, but won't address at the moment.

Carioca said:

BBM - The spotting appears to be a flower pattern within the fabric of the red comforter as per attached. Also inverted the image to better see how the flower pattern continues up and beyond, albeit faintly.

As to those markings on RZ's ankles and wrists, IMO they are marks from the weaving in the rope, the impressions made from her body weight resting on them. The one showing her ankles, apparently she had been flipped to the other side already since can see brick walkway in background. There are other "suspicious" markings in those photos, but won't address at the moment.

Click to expand...

I haven't been too interested in this subject. I did, however, google EVA flip flop. Looking at the soles of some of them, I did see flower patterns like the ones in the photo. Dr. Godwin ascertained that EVA flip flop was the brand of the footwear footprint he saw on the balcony.

:scared:u

Gilgamesh said:

I haven't been too interested in this subject. I did, however, google EVA flip flop. Looking at the soles of some of them, I did see flower patterns like the ones in the photo. Dr. Godwin ascertained that EVA flip flop was the brand of the footwear footprint he saw on the balcony.

Click to expand...

Nevermind. Disregard previous post.

Carioca said:

Hi DeDee - Neither of the beds had wheels as per attached photos. Actually the pile carpeting in the reenactment looks more plush than the "hanging room" carpet, but am not an expert. Legs in both are sitting directly on the carpeting, no cups or protection.

I believe both beds jumped. It was the distance the bed jumped...

Click to expand...

After studying the two pictures you so kindly provided, I viewed the simulation once more stopping it at key points along the way.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15940480/m...type=printable

I agree neither bed had attached wheels and that both beds were lifted off of the ground with the force applied from the drop. I was curious because someone had opined the missing drag marks along the carpet were suspicious.

The SDSO explained the difference in the length of movement of the two beds was due to the weight of the original iron bed and mattresses being greater in the guest bedroom than the bed in the simulated experiment. IE, my previous mattress weighed far more than the current mattress.

Gilgamesh said:

:scared:u

Nevermind. Disregard previous post.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with it?

Carioca said:

Hi DeDee - Neither of the beds had wheels as per attached photos. Actually the pile carpeting in the reenactment looks more plush than the "hanging room" carpet, but am not an expert. Legs in both are sitting directly on the carpeting, no cups or protection.

I believe both beds jumped. It was the distance the bed jumped...

Click to expand...

Hi Carioca, thanks! I watched the re-enactment with my hubby and we both see the wheels under the bed. I wonder why they used the wheeled bed even though they only measured the "jump" in distance?

We still see the white bed as having stoppers on the bottom of the legs so perhaps that's why the bed didn't "jump" as far IRL during the tortured hanging of Rebecca...

Carioca said:

BBM - The spotting appears to be a flower pattern within the fabric of the red comforter as per attached. Also inverted the image to better see how the flower pattern continues up and beyond, albeit faintly.

As to those markings on RZ's ankles and wrists, IMO they are marks from the weaving in the rope, the impressions made from her body weight resting on them. The one showing her ankles, apparently she had been flipped to the other side already since can see brick walkway in background. There are other "suspicious" markings in those photos, but won't address at the moment.

Click to expand...

Thank you Caricoa for posting these pics, and I do agree, it does look like a flower pattern within the fabric, but I'm having trouble seeing it continuing up and beyond. When you look at it, it's sort of random, and not quite what you'd expect to see woven or sewn into fabric. I will try to enlarge the images and look more closely. It's certainly not my forte, but I am going to try! As for the other suspicious marking, ITA. Thanks again!

Gilgamesh said:

I haven't been too interested in this subject. I did, however, google EVA flip flop. Looking at the soles of some of them, I did see flower patterns like the ones in the photo. Dr. Godwin ascertained that EVA flip flop was the brand of the footwear footprint he saw on the balcony.

Click to expand...

Well you got me thinking, and looking a bit more closely...Thanks Gilgamesh for making me take a second look at something I didn't pay too much attention to before.

Gilgamesh said:

:scared:u

Nevermind. Disregard previous post.

Click to expand...

Oh my.

ALWAYS MOO

Carioca said:

BBM - The spotting appears to be a flower pattern within the fabric of the red comforter as per attached. Also inverted the image to better see how the flower pattern continues up and beyond, albeit faintly.

As to those markings on RZ's ankles and wrists, IMO they are marks from the weaving in the rope, the impressions made from her body weight resting on them. The one showing her ankles, apparently she had been flipped to the other side already since can see brick walkway in background. There are other "suspicious" markings in those photos, but won't address at the moment.

Click to expand...

Thank you for looking into it and sharing your work. When I drew a lazo around the print yesterday it looked like a shoeprint to me, in fact it still does; but I can now also see what appear to be partial reflections of the pattern elsewhere on the comforter.

In regards to the chair, I think it is wrong to assume that the whole chair has the same threaded pattern when we can only see a very small portion of it. Maybe whoever found the bed can please also find the chair so that you can please take a closer look at the whole chair too - especially the arm rests and posts?

Also, even if both impressions were indeed made by the rope, I still think that they support the view that RZ likely died on her back - was not the chair overturned? The more I look into it the more it horrifies me to think she might've been tortured. That would mean that she came around from the blows and found herself tied to the chair - or possibly even the bed with her limbs tied to the bed posts? The later might explain the steep angle of the impressions when compared to the angle of the rope loops.

In summary, I find unlikely that the bindings were moved/slid by LE while flipping her over, and even more unlikely that either binding was loose enough to slide laterally so far on their own. There are actually several loops around both limbs, and the loops were then tensed somewhat between limbs. Together, the various loops would've generated so much friction that gravity alone cannot explain the distance traveled - LE would've had to drag her for that to happen and I don't see that being the case in the available photographs.

bourne said:

Hi Carioca, thanks! I watched the re-enactment with my hubby and we both see the wheels under the bed. I wonder why they used the wheeled bed even though they only measured the "jump" in distance?

We still see the white bed as having stoppers on the bottom of the legs so perhaps that's why the bed didn't "jump" as far IRL during the tortured hanging of Rebecca...

Click to expand...

Hi Bourne!

I'm not seeing the wheels either. Entertainment for our spouses, my hubby and I also watched the video together. I took many screenshots and viewed in a slower speed. In my opinion, neither bed has wheels. The bed frame in the reenactment is not as sturdy as the Spreckels bed. Also, the Spreckles footing in not as rounded and smooth as the bed used in the reenactment. Maybe one of us could contact CBS8 to confirm?

Looking again at the pictures of Rebecca's wrist bindings, I don't know how she could have slipped her hand out of the rope without her bracelet(s) coming off. It also appears the rope around her left wrist is intertwined with her bracelets, rather strange for someone who allegedly bound themselves.

*Lash* said:

Hi Bourne!

I'm not seeing the wheels either. Entertainment for our spouses, my hubby and I also watched the video together. I took many screenshots and viewed in a slower speed. In my opinion, neither bed has wheels. The bed frame in the reenactment is not as sturdy as the Spreckels bed. Also, the Spreckles footing in not as rounded and smooth as the bed used in the reenactment. Maybe one of us could contact CBS8 to confirm?

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Hiya Lash, at the beginning of the re-enactment video at 00:32/02:33 and also later at 1:07, I see what looks to be black wheels in the bed legs, and then the bed appears to be quickly rolling (vs. dragging across carpet) towards the open balcony once the 100-lb. bag is dropped. Is that not the same bed they used to measure the "jump" of the bed?

IDK. Are there close-up pics of the re-enactment bed? To me and hubby, the Spreckels bed had white stoppers on the bed legs. You can't really see the stoppers because the carpet fiber is high and covers part of the stoppers.

The narrator in the video had said it was a "non-scientific" re-enactment and I can see why because it's not the same bed, coverings, furnishings, and the room configuration and the carpet are different from the Spreckels mansion ones.

I still believe Rebecca was thrown over the balcony and the reason the bed "jump" distances were different is because of the physical scientific differences I've mentioned above.

bourne said:

Hiya Lash, at the beginning of the re-enactment video at 00:32/02:33 and also later at 1:07, I see what looks to be black wheels in the bed legs, and then the bed appears to be quickly rolling (vs. dragging across carpet) towards the open balcony once the 100-lb. bag is dropped. Is that not the same bed they used to measure the "jump" of the bed?

IDK. Are there close-up pics of the re-enactment bed? To me and hubby, the Spreckels bed had white stoppers on the bed legs. You can't really see the stoppers because the carpet fiber is high and covers part of the stoppers.

The narrator in the video had said it was a "non-scientific" re-enactment and I can see why because it's not the same bed, coverings, furnishings, and the room configuration and the carpet are different from the Spreckels mansion ones.

I still believe Rebecca was thrown over the balcony and the reason the bed "jump" distances were different is because of the physical scientific differences I've mentioned above.

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Hi bourne - The photos I posted are (1) a stop frame from the reenactment and (2) the bed at Spreckels. Here's the link to my post:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9707918#post9707918"]The case for murder - Page 79 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


In the photo from reenactment, one can clearly see there are no wheels on the bed. Note the red rope tied above the right leg. It moves so quickly in the video, it gives the impression there are wheels. It took several slow motion stops to see there weren't. And I see no point in their switching the beds just to fool someone (?). They went to great lengths to find an exact copy of the bed from the manufacturer as explained in the video.

In the Spreckels bed photo, one can clearly see in the upper part of the photo the white leg peg sitting directly on the carpet. Harder to see the leg with rope due to photo angle.

Am not trying to prove a point, just seeing it as I see it. :twocents:

Carioca said:

BBM - The spotting appears to be a flower pattern within the fabric of the red comforter as per attached. Also inverted the image to better see how the flower pattern continues up and beyond, albeit faintly.

As to those markings on RZ's ankles and wrists, IMO they are marks from the weaving in the rope, the impressions made from her body weight resting on them. The one showing her ankles, apparently she had been flipped to the other side already since can see brick walkway in background. There are other "suspicious" markings in those photos, but won't address at the moment.

Click to expand...

Actually I agree with some others that the flowery "spotting" does not appear to be regular pattern of the comforter. Rather it looks to me that someone (likely one of the murderers) was wearing slippers/shoes with dusty flowery patterns on its soles and might have stepped around parts of the comforter.

In fact, now that I think about it, perhaps one of the murderers were wearing the EVA flip flops with the flowery patterns and stepped out onto the dusty balcony -- perhaps while measuring the rope length needed for noose hanging. And then this murderer then stepped on the comforter for whatever reason. Maybe comforter was used by Rebecca to cover her nudity and murderer stepped on comforter to wrestle it off Rebecca...

That's what the flowery prints on comforter look to be -- sole of someone's flip flops, IMO.

Carioca said:

Hi bourne - The photos I posted are (1) a stop frame from the reenactment and (2) the bed at Spreckels. Here's the link to my post:
The case for murder - Page 79 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


In the photo from reenactment, one can clearly see there are no wheels on the bed. Note the red rope tied above the right leg. It moves so quickly in the video, it gives the impression there are wheels. It took several slow motion stops to see there weren't. And I see no point in their switching the beds just to fool someone (?). They went to great lengths to find an exact copy of the bed from the manufacturer as explained in the video.

In the Spreckels bed photo, one can clearly see in the upper part of the photo the white leg peg sitting directly on the carpet. Harder to see the leg with rope due to photo angle.

Am not trying to prove a point, just seeing it as I see it. :twocents:

Click to expand...

Thanks Carioca. I don't think the re-enactment was intended to "fool" anyone but that maybe the person whose home this re-enactment was made (IIRC it was the doggy daycare owner's home?) didn't want his floor to be scratched up in the demonstration so they decided to use wheels for the bed.

I see your still photo but it's too indistinct to see whether there are wheels. I'm basing my opinion about the wheels on what I see from the moving video.

Does anyone have a screenshot or pix they can share of the EVA flip flops? I have googled images and I was unable to find a brand flower print to these flip flops. I found multiple patterns on the soles of the shoes.

TIA

Here are the reasons I do not believe RZ committed suicide. I sense that I only can post this here vs Salem's restrictive new thread.....Suicide only posts.

1- Rebecca wasn't responsible for Max's death.
2-Rebecca was a level headed person.
3- Rebecca was physically and mentally in good order.
4- Rebecca did not drink or take drugs to alter her state of mind.
5-Rebecca wasn't under any care prior to her death.
6-Rebecca's time of death was speculated by brash ME Lucas between 1:00 am -3:00am
but stated at 3:00am at the sham Sept.2,2011 Gore PC. Lucas couldn't say 1:00am because that would disprove Gore's flawed suicide timeline given someone erased a phone message at 12:50am. ME Lucas never put TIME OF DEATH in his Autopsy Report.
7-Rebecca had no internet searches of suicide,ropes, rope knots,etc.
8-Rebecca left no suicide note or final goodbye letter to Xena and her family.
9-Rebecca wouldn't leave such a mess (bloody) on her exit of life.
10- There hasn't not been any confirmation to date that Dr. Brad Peterson (Rady Hospital) gave Jonah GRAVE news after he returned from dinner with RZ and brother Adam at 8:00pm. In fact, Dina claimed on her previous media tour that it wasn't until Friday (2 1/2 days later) that she realized Max's condition was GRAVE and NINA has stated it was Thursday but only Jonah and Gore say it was Tuesday night.....in fact it would've had to been after 9;00pm because that the time when one of the Romano sister's left Rady Hospital in Jonah's car.
11- Jonah's statement of the "contents" of his message is hearsay and interesting enough...Jonah has not ONCE ever said,"I should've never called Rebecca that late with such bad news without talking with her and I was going to see her the next morning because she was bringing me a fresh set of clothes."
12- There has never been an explanation where the orange/red towing rope came from other than possibly the garage but there were NO RZ fingerprints or footprints to substantiate that claim.
13- If RZ had her t-shirt on then why did paint show up on her breast and nipple?
14- Why wrap a t-shirt 3x around your neck and GAG yourself......why didn't Gore demonstrate that SDSO woman employee wrapping a similar t-shirt 3x around her neck....it's exceptionally difficult to do by yourself or more apt done by a killer that wants to ensure the victim can't scream for HELP while hanging.
15- If Gore spent half as much time following up the homicide leads vs suicide leads then Adam would've been arrested, NINA would've been instructed to follow through with her polygraph, Dina,Jonah and houseguests of Dina, including Nina's 18 year old son would've been asked for blood samples/DNA swabs.
16-SDSO investigators and Gore have yet to say WHERE Rebecca got her "caked" mud feet.
17- ME Lucas and Gore have yet to say Why Rebecca had the purplish lividity pattern in her body was along her back and the back of her legs, and it was fixed. If Rebecca had been hanging from the balcony since 3:00am and supposedly cut down by Adam nearly 4 hours later....gravity would have dropped the deepest purple-red stains to her feet and lower legs. {Ann Rule's book - page 218}
18- ME brash Lucas totally downplayed the 4 separate subgaleal hemorrhages beneath Rebecca's scalp.Lucas could only downplay this or dismiss these hemorrhages to support Gore's suicide theory because to suggest otherwise.....Rebecca was physically assaulted which would've placed unknown person(s)with RZ that night/early morning.
19- Gore placed MORE emphasis on Jonah's hearsay voice message to RZ and unsupported claims of Max's sudden GRAVE condition to support his Suicide Theory than the 2 witnesses that might suggest "homicide"......the next door neighbor that heard screams and Help-Help at 11:40 pm Tuesday night coming from Spreckels mansion and the bicyclist insisted it was DINA not NINA at the front porch nervously walking/pacing back and forth from the front porch and driveway.
20- Gore's special advisor Greg Thompson was the former assistant DA for 8 years with Jonah's retained attorney Paul Pfingst plus he was the former SDSO Director of Forensics and in charge of SDSO Crime Lab (after Pfingst's unsuccessful 3rd term DA attempt) continues to fly UNDER THE RADAR and scrutiny of what pivotal role he personally played with Pfingst to turn the DEATH INVESTIGATION quickly into a Suicide Theory because the FACTS (as we know them today) simply don't even remotely hint at a suicide death.