Verdict watch weekend discussion thread 3/3-4/2012

nursebeeme · Mar 2, 2012

Deliberations began Friday at 1016am and we are officially on verdict watch! Deliberations will not continue until Monday...
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This thread is for weekend discussion of the case.

ynotdivein · Mar 3, 2012

http://www.orakshrine.org/images/stories/facility-articles/breakfast.jpg

otto · Mar 3, 2012

Thanks for the new thread ... bringing my comment from the other thread over as I would like to hear how others interpret this list

I don't think there is absolute proof that Jason was or was not involved. What I see is a prosecution theory where all sorts of circumstantial points have been strung together to reinforce the theory that Jason is guilty.

What has the proseuction presented:

- an unplugged camera that cannot be connected to Jason
- a questionable gas attendant witness that added new information to her testimony after she admittedly didn't remember anything about the customer in her store
- prints in places that should match Jason, but don't
- a theory about medicine with nothing to connect the medicine to Jason or the child (no evidence she was drugged)
- two pair of shoes but no explanation why Jason would wear size 10 shoes to commit a strangulation murder
- a motive of millions of dollars but at the same time Jason knew that as a suspect he could not claim the millions
- allegations of a prior murder attempt and an accident investigator that attended the scene stating that everyone was wearing a seatbelt, that it was an accident in a place where accidents had happened before
- adultery
- dishonesty about the adultery
- sexual dysfunction in the marriage
- two people that participate in loud verbal disagreements in public
- an unhappy marriage
- a missing shirt, missing worn out hush puppy shoes, missing size 10 shoes
- a husband that was advised not to speak to police because he was immediately considered a suspect
- some investigation into possible suspects at a nearby trailer park that did not produce any leads
- vehicles seen at the property from 3:30 or 4 AM until about 6 AM.
- porch and driveway lights on (could have been left on the from the night before)
- missing items but no insurance claim for those missing items
- a poor planner that fails to calculate the amount of gas required to make the 510 mile trip but plans other details such as two pair of shoes for a strangulation murder
- an unfaithful husband that was in contact with his mistress before and after the murder, making no attempt to hide his frequent contact with his mistress
- no video surveillance on the 10 cameras at the hotel showing all of Jason's movements (morning activity)
- an unplugged camera
- no murder weapon
- a child that acts out the murder with play figures and identifies the mother figure, but not the figure that is "spanking" the mother figure for "biting" (she was familiar enough with both parents to identify both of them if the father was involved)

Did I miss anything? I don't see the above as proof of murder. It appears to be the case that investigators assumed that Jason was guilty and that they looked for circumstances that would support their theory.

otto · Mar 3, 2012

From the other thread ...

gritguy said:
Wait, Fred you're saying a brutal killer who is there to rob and knows just where to find a wallet without leaving blood evidence of looking for it and who prefers some jewelry to others but yet who DOES NOT tamper with or take MY's purse is an unlikely scenario?

You're saying that waiting until 6 months after the murder to say, "But wait it was burglary there were some things missing" could merely be an attempt to protect the hiding son?

If you're saying that, if that's what you're saying - I AGREE!

Investigators knew right away that the rings were missing because they had the body and Meredith was communicating with them. They also knew about the missing tooth container through Meredith (this was a family heirloom). It was later that the wallet with $500 was noticed mising. There was no 6 month delay before investigators knew that items were missing from the master bedroom.

Just the Fax · Mar 3, 2012

After a quick glance at your post, otto, I immediately saw 2 things I disagree with

Missing worn out hush puppy shoes ???

Who said he intended to be a suspect if his original plan worked out? That $4MM life insurance was sitting out there as a straight flush and he was willing to gamble.

I see many of your others add your subjective slant on the evidence...personally I see it in a totally different light.

jerseygirl48 · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
... It appears to be the case that investigators assumed that Jason was guilty and that they looked for circumstances that would support their theory.

That's what I fear too Otto. If you look hard enough you can find links. Whenever Internet history comes up in these cases, for example, I shudder to think what assumptions would be made about me if my Internet history was presented a certain way. On another Internet board, my avatar is Frances McDormand holding a gun In a Fargo shot. One day, someone accused me of being a gun toting redneck! I've never held a gun in my life - I just love that movie! I like Pulp Fiction too - perhaps if I change to Uma Thurman I could be viewed as a heroin addict ... I think I'd like that better than a gun toting redneck! But, I digress ...

I think we all bring different life experiences to the table. Some of us just think that there's a decent chance he didn't do this ....

Just the Fax · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
From the other thread ...

Investigators knew right away that the rings were missing because they had the body and Meredith was communicating with them. They also knew about the missing tooth container through Meredith (this was a family heirloom). It was later that the wallet with $500 was noticed mising. There was no 6 month delay before investigators knew that items were missing from the master bedroom.

It was up to the homeowner to file an inventory of missing items "stolen" from the home. The fact no personal property was claimed in addition to $27,000 property damage is highly suspect.

otto · Mar 3, 2012

Bringing this over from the last thread

Stella5 said:
Probably because....

JY found out his FIL was not coming into town that weekend (opportunity)

JY left Raleigh and decided to only drive 170 miles to a hotel for an appointment that was 310 miles away

JY checked into the HI in a light colored shirt

JY was seen an hour later in a dark colored shirt on HI cameras - that shirt has never been found despite numerous search warrants served on Young's residences & storage lockers

JY wasn't seen on any cameras after the last one caught him close to midnight, and a camera was unplugged at 11:20 p.m.; and then shoved skyward at 6:35 a.m. Why? Yes it happened 9 years before, but why tonight? Timeframe proves he could have gone to Raleigh & back in the times those cameras were tampered with

JYs phone goes totally silent in the hours the murder happened

JY said he had the continental breakfast at the hotel, when infact the breakfast was bagged that morning

JY was 35 minutes late to a first time appointment, and I'm not buying he got lost because he did have a map (construction or not, he knew which exit to take - those searches tell you turn by turn - the map is in evidence) and based on the first phone call at 7:40 a.m., that tells me that's when he got in the car to make the drive from Hillsville to Clintwood, which takes 2 hours & 56 minutes... perfect timing!

JY was more concerned with calling his mistress 980 times in october than in fixing his marriage

JY had sex with two women other than his wife in October

JY upped the life insurance without Michelle's knowledge, she thought $1m was excessive could you imagine her reaction to $4m

JY would be happy if Michelle just let him have women on the side

JY & MY were fighting more often in the month before her death

I could go on & on... but those are huge for me!

I'd love to hear an explanation of how the twig makes him not guilty. He got back to the hotel and noticed it was removed, he had to have an excuse as to why he did that. Also the hotel door. If someone would have closed it during the night, he would have had to just say he got locked out. No one noticed, because even if they do they are not going to pull it closed incase you meant to leave the door like that while going for ice, etc... he just lucked out on the room door, IMO.

As of noon on the day of the business trip, Jason did know that his father in law was not visiting. The business trip was not planned and booked by him. He had other friends visiting that weekend. How does that go to opportunity?

What does driving halfway to the meeting place have to do with the murder? The rest of the route was a winding road that he was unfamiliar with ... good idea to drive it during daylight.

Jason went outside to smoke a cigar on a cold, windy night ... why wouldn't he put on an extra shirt?

Nothing connects Jason to the camera except the fact that he was at the hotel and his wife was murdered that night. He did not try to avoid being seen by the cameras at midnight when he was stepping out to smoke and no cameras captured him arriving in the morning. If his door was not latched through the night, why wasn't it noticed either time that the night audit clerk interacted with the room door?

Jason didn't use his phone at the time when he said he was sleeping. Silent phones in the middle of the night don't mean anything.

Invesitgators also got lost using Jason's mapquest map, supporting Jason's claim that he got lost.

I think that Jason and Michelle had both given up on their marriage. Jason sought other women, Michelle sought counselling to help get her life back on track.

If Michelle thought that one million in insurance was excessive, she wouldn't have taken a policy through her profesional organization for that amount. We don't know what she did not agree with upping the amount ... we only have the testimony from a friend who admittedly never liked Jason.

I missed the information about breakfast ... are you saying that there was no breakfast at the hotel that morning ... only take out bags?

CGW · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
Thanks for the new thread ... bringing my comment from the other thread over as I would like to hear how others interpret this list

I don't think there is absolute proof that Jason was or was not involved. What I see is a prosecution theory where all sorts of circumstantial points have been strung together to reinforce the theory that Jason is guilty.

What has the proseuction presented:

- an unplugged camera that cannot be connected to Jason
- a questionable gas attendant witness that added new information to her testimony after she admittedly didn't remember anything about the customer in her store
- prints in places that should match Jason, but don't
- a theory about medicine with nothing to connect the medicine to Jason or the child (no evidence she was drugged)
- two pair of shoes but no explanation why Jason would wear size 10 shoes to commit a strangulation murder
- a motive of millions of dollars but at the same time Jason knew that as a suspect he could not claim the millions
- allegations of a prior murder attempt and an accident investigator that attended the scene stating that everyone was wearing a seatbelt, that it was an accident in a place where accidents had happened before
- adultery
- dishonesty about the adultery
- sexual dysfunction in the marriage
- two people that participate in loud verbal disagreements in public
- an unhappy marriage
- a missing shirt, missing worn out hush puppy shoes, missing size 10 shoes
- a husband that was advised not to speak to police because he was immediately considered a suspect
- some investigation into possible suspects at a nearby trailer park that did not produce any leads
- vehicles seen at the property from 3:30 or 4 AM until about 6 AM.
- porch and driveway lights on (could have been left on the from the night before)
- missing items but no insurance claim for those missing items
- a poor planner that fails to calculate the amount of gas required to make the 510 mile trip but plans other details such as two pair of shoes for a strangulation murder
- an unfaithful husband that was in contact with his mistress before and after the murder, making no attempt to hide his frequent contact with his mistress
- no video surveillance on the 10 cameras at the hotel showing all of Jason's movements (morning activity)
- an unplugged camera
- no murder weapon
- a child that acts out the murder with play figures and identifies the mother figure, but not the figure that is "spanking" the mother figure for "biting" (she was familiar enough with both parents to identify both of them if the father was involved)

Did I miss anything? I don't see the above as proof of murder. It appears to be the case that investigators assumed that Jason was guilty and that they looked for circumstances that would support their theory.

Thanks for bringing your post over. A few you didn't mention that I think are some of the strongest pieces of CE are:

-Cassidy was picked up and carried to bathroom, cleaned up, and diaper removed (no stranger would do that)
-The shirt he was wearing when he left the hotel at midnight (that there is video proof of) was not on his person the next day, in his car, or in his luggage....so where is it? And the HP shoes?
-Sister in law was called by JY(for the first time EVER) to go INTO their home ASAP to get a print out on the printer. (he needed her to rescue CY and discover the body).
-Cameras tampered with at 11:20pm, shortly after JY arrived and shortly before he left the hotel. Retampered with at 6:37am when lines up perfectly with the timeline of JY's return to the hotel. Mind you the cameras haven't been tampered with in YEARS!
-Doors that JY would use at hotel were propped open so key card wasn't needed.
-Spontaneous trip to Brevard that was out of the way. (He didn't want to go straight home until someone had found the body.)
-"Robber" walked right by MY's pocketbook TWICE and didn't steal from it!
-OVERKILL stongly indicates someone who knew the victim and did not like them.
-No forced entry, dog not harmed and left in house, CY not harmed....again, very likely not a stranger who did this.

In my opinion, JY is either the unluckiest guy in the world for all of the coincidences or he had something to do with the murder of MY. (Just my respectful opinion). I do appreciate the dialog from either side of the fence, so I'm always open to hear both arguments. IMO, it's a good thing none of us at WS are on this jury b/c it seems most of us have our heels dug in and can't be budged! There's no way I would switch to NG with the evidence at hand, but I may be willing to compromise with the NG side to 2nd degree even though I feel it's first degree. For the record, I am stubborn. I hope the jurors aren't (unless of course they are on the G side :what

JMO

fifteen89 · Mar 3, 2012

Just the Fax said:
After a quick glance at your post, otto, I immediately saw 2 things I disagree with

Missing worn out hush puppy shoes ???

Who said he intended to be a suspect if his original plan worked out? That $4MM life insurance was sitting out there as a straight flush and he was willing to gamble.

I see many of your others add your subjective slant on the evidence...personally I see it in a totally different light.

Me too. All the evidence in this case screams guilty to me. Absolutely nothing points to anyone but Jason. jmo

ETA: And the camera wasn't just unplugged. And the cameras hadn't been messed with for how many years yet they just happened to be on that particular night when Jason was at that particular hotel and his wife was beaten to death.

otto · Mar 3, 2012

Just the Fax said:
After a quick glance at your post, otto, I immediately saw 2 things I disagree with

Missing worn out hush puppy shoes ???

Who said he intended to be a suspect if his original plan worked out? That $4MM life insurance was sitting out there as a straight flush and he was willing to gamble.

I see many of your others add your subjective slant on the evidence...personally I see it in a totally different light.

Per the prosecution theory, two pair of shoes are missing: a size 10 pair and a size 12 pair. The size 12 pair were associated with a receipt for the purchase of a pair of similar size 12 shoes from 1.5 years earlier. The size 10 shoes are not connected with Jason. Since the size 12 shoes were everyday shoes, I'm assuming that they were worn out after 1.5 years.

How could he possibly believe that he would not be a suspect after increasing the insurance a couple of months after it was purchased; a couple of months before the murder. It has "motive" written all over it, as does the frequent, regular contact he had with his mistress and his adultery in the month prior to the murder.

Just the Fax · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
I don't think there is absolute proof that Jason was or was not involved. What I see is a prosecution theory where all sorts of circumstantial points have been strung together to reinforce the theory that Jason is guilty.

It appears to be the case that investigators assumed that Jason was guilty and that they looked for circumstances that would support their theory.

Yes otto, a very long string of CE, when taken in it's entirety, shows JLY murdered MY. IMO, far beyond a reasonable doubt.

"Looked for circumstances" to support their theory?
Ahh, yea they sure did. Those circumstance were not made up, they happen to be fact. Should all that damning evidence be ignored because LE focused on him? Not sure what your point is?

otto · Mar 3, 2012

Just the Fax said:
It was up to the homeowner to file an inventory of missing items "stolen" from the home. The fact no personal property was claimed in addition to $27,000 property damage is highly suspect.

It really doesn't matter who has to notify the insurance company that items were mssing from the home. The point is that investigators were well aware of missing items right after the murder ... there was no six month delay.

fifteen89 · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
From the other thread ...

Investigators knew right away that the rings were missing because they had the body and Meredith was communicating with them. They also knew about the missing tooth container through Meredith (this was a family heirloom). It was later that the wallet with $500 was noticed mising. There was no 6 month delay before investigators knew that items were missing from the master bedroom.

Jason's own Mother testified to not telling because she was mad at the investigators.

Just the Fax · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
Per the prosecution theory, two pair of shoes are missing: a size 10 pair and a size 12 pair. The size 12 pair were associated with a receipt for the purchase of a pair of similar size 12 shoes from 1.5 years earlier. The size 10 shoes are not connected with Jason. Since the size 12 shoes were everyday shoes, I'm assuming that they were worn out after 1.5 years.

How could he possibly believe that he would not be a suspect after increasing the insurance a couple of months after it was purchased; a couple of months before the murder. It has "motive" written all over it, as does the frequent, regular contact he had with his mistress and his adultery in the month prior to the murder.

Sorry otto, you have no idea how often JLY wore those shoes.
The only time I saw them on his feet was at the cracker barrel and leaving the hotel on 11-3-06. Do you have other sightings?

Increasing insurance to $4,000,000 2 months before his wife is murdered shows clear motive. He was clever enough to increase his limits at the same time....

fifteen89 · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
Per the prosecution theory, two pair of shoes are missing: a size 10 pair and a size 12 pair. The size 12 pair were associated with a receipt for the purchase of a pair of similar size 12 shoes from 1.5 years earlier. The size 10 shoes are not connected with Jason. Since the size 12 shoes were everyday shoes, I'm assuming that they were worn out after 1.5 years.

How could he possibly believe that he would not be a suspect after increasing the insurance a couple of months after it was purchased; a couple of months before the murder. It has "motive" written all over it, as does the frequent, regular contact he had with his mistress and his adultery in the month prior to the murder.

His "you came here for THAT?" comment suggests to me that he thought he had done such a good job covering his tracks that eventually it would all just go away......

cody100 · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
From the other thread ...

Investigators knew right away that the rings were missing because they had the body and Meredith was communicating with them. They also knew about the missing tooth container through Meredith (this was a family heirloom). It was later that the wallet with $500 was noticed mising. There was no 6 month delay before investigators knew that items were missing from the master bedroom.

Your list is pretty conclusive and definitely very accurate. Thanks for posting it. How people see this set of circumstantial evidence is very interesting. I respect both opinions.

Just the Fax · Mar 3, 2012

otto said:
It really doesn't matter who has to notify the insurance company that items were mssing from the home. The point is that investigators were well aware of missing items right after the murder ... there was no six month delay.

Yes it does matter.
There was not going to be anything paid unless the insured (JlY) filed a police report and gave a statement to the insurance carrier.

BritsKate · Mar 3, 2012

Doesn't LE usually focus on those closest to the victim initially (while following other leads obviously) and then clear them to move their investigation outward? :waitasec:

Note: Rhetorical question.

The problem is JY could not be cleared so he remained the focus until such time as he was arrested.

otto · Mar 3, 2012

CGW said:
Thanks for bringing your post over. A few you didn't mention that I think are some of the strongest pieces of CE are:

-Cassidy was picked up and carried to bathroom, cleaned up, and diaper removed (no stranger would do that)
-The shirt he was wearing when he left the hotel at midnight (that there is video proof of) was not on his person the next day, in his car, or in his luggage....so where is it? And the HP shoes?
-Sister in law was called by JY(for the first time EVER) to go INTO their home ASAP to get a print out on the printer. (he needed her to rescue CY and discover the body).
-Cameras tampered with at 11:20pm, shortly after JY arrived and shortly before he left the hotel. Retampered with at 6:37am when lines up perfectly with the timeline of JY's return to the hotel. Mind you the cameras haven't been tampered with in YEARS!
-Doors that JY would use at hotel were propped open so key card wasn't needed.
-Spontaneous trip to Brevard that was out of the way. (He didn't want to go straight home until someone had found the body.)
-"Robber" walked right by MY's pocketbook TWICE and didn't steal from it!
-OVERKILL stongly indicates someone who knew the victim and did not like them.
-No forced entry, dog not harmed and left in house, CY not harmed....again, very likely not a stranger who did this.

In my opinion, JY is either the unluckiest guy in the world for all of the coincidences or he had something to do with the murder of MY. (Just my respectful opinion). I do appreciate the dialog from either side of the fence, so I'm always open to hear both arguments. IMO, it's a good thing none of us at WS are on this jury b/c it seems most of us have our heels dug in and can't be budged! There's no way I would switch to NG with the evidence at hand, but I may be willing to compromise with the NG side to 2nd degree even though I feel it's first degree. For the record, I am stubborn. I hope the jurors aren't (unless of course they are on the G side :what JMO

There is no evidence that the child was carried to the bathroom. I think the testimony is on day 4 where the investigator discusses a special machine that was purchased to reveal bloody prints on the carpet between the bedroom and the bathroom. There is no evidence that someone was in the bathroom with the child ... only evidence of the child, a child that was capable of using the taps and the sink and who mentioned the washcloth during the 911 call.

Clothes he was wearing when he arrived in Raleigh were never requested so we don't know for certain what shirts he was wearing.

If Jason needed Meredith to rescue his daughter, he would have called first thing in the morning ... not noon.

Suppose the camera was not tampered with in the morning. Suppose Jason was seen entering the hotel at 6:37 ... wouldn't it be easier to say that he had to get something from the car - like his tie - than to tilt the camera again?

If the room door was propped open at 4 in the morning, the night audit clerk should have noticed it when he slid the receipt under the door or placed the newspaper on the doorhandle.

He admitted propping the exterior door open with a twig ... and it's been verified as successful way to prop the door. It's like the search for head trauma on the computer ... it's been verified as being connected to an actual accident (something the prosecution would have known because they had Michelle's email - yet prosecutors put a sinister spin on it to twist the facts)

He had plans to pick up furniture from his parent's home, a known fact right after the murder.

"Robber" may have gone up the bonus room steps, thinking people were still up and on the main floor (lights on throughout the house), completely missing the purse in the kitchen.

Violent attack may have been result of Michelle fighting back during strangulation. Bedroom door handle set was damaged at some point and had to be replaced through insurance.

Garage exterior people-door was routinely left unlocked ... no need for key to enter home. Daughter of Christa Worthington also left unharmed after stranger- murder.

I switched from guilty to not-guilty after the first trial ... I'm still open minded, but the more I look at it, the harder it is for me to believe that the prosecution is objective.

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