Elisa Lam - What Happened?

This is a poll thread to discuss what you think may have happened to Elisa and why.

Please pick the option that most closely matches what you feel may have happened to this lovely girl.

Hi gitana1

I strongly feel this is homicide, but can't decide whether a crime of opportunity or pre-planned. Leaning toward opportunity (given the hotel and surroundings), so i voted that way, but can't discount planning (i.e. length of time that might be involved .. minutes/days)

fwiw

I think it was a homicide, but I also think she may have been high on ecstasy or something like that. It is also possible that somebody slipped her the drug earlier, with plans to assault her.

sillybilly said:

Hi gitana1

I strongly feel this is homicide, but can't decide whether a crime of opportunity or pre-planned. Leaning toward opportunity (given the hotel and surroundings), so i voted that way, but can't discount planning (i.e. length of time that might be involved .. minutes/days)

fwiw

Click to expand...

Yes, and of course a crime of opportunity is usually premeditated. I;m just trying to differentiate between a scenario in which she is lured to CA or otherwise days of planning went into it once her name was known (i.e. the Elisa Lam TB theories) and a crime that occurred because she encountered a bad guy in the hotel or at a bar or on the street that day.

Crime of opportunity could include 1st or second degree murder, negligent homicide, etc. . It could mean she encountered a scum bag who decided to rape her and then kill her so she wouldn't tell, or someone who accidentally killed her during an assault.

I don't know.
I will say that I don't think it was suicide or accidental.
IMHO, it was crime of opportunity, or premeditated, or social network/conspiracy. :twocents:

IMHO - It appears that she know the person in the Video and is in a "happy" and relaxed state. I am having issues with understanding why she is having so many problems with the elevator as its not her first day there and I am sure she used it many times before.

I would like to see video of her before the elevator video, so we can see her demeanor in those videos. Additionally there are other times she used the elevator, did she have problems then and how did she act.

In other words is the video her normal demeanor or is she acting different than other times and days.

Also if it was a security guard, surely they would have come into the elevator to check out the issue she was having. The person she is speaking with KNOWS there is a video camera in the elevator and does not want to be identified.

Is there video of her speaking with anyone in the lobby, leaving with anyone on the days before or just hanging out with someone?

Those are my nagging questions. I think the LAPD does have other video with "persons of interest" and is just not sharing it with us.

IMO it had to have been a homicide.

I believe it is extremely unlikely that she was psychotic, primarily because Bipolar Type 2 (which Elisa was diagnosed with) does not manifest with true mania/psychosis, but hypomania. In rare cases I suppose it probably may happen. This is just knowledge that I have as a sufferer of depression myself, so I'm not an expert.

I believe someone despicable encountered or met Elisa, took advantage of her vulnerable state, and committed an atrocious crime.

And I also strongly believe that it's possible that the elevator video we see is of Elisa frantically attempting to leave a situation where she has realized she's been drugged; IMO, it is why she left without her glasses and seems collected at first - and like someone said in the main thread, there are safety guides for young travelers saying that you should press all the buttons so you throw off your attacker. I don't think she expected to hit Door Hold. I think it's possible that she began to hallucinate after the drugs began kicking in, explaining the sudden bizarre gestures and acting like she's talking to someone in the elevator. And from there my speculation runs dry.

JMO 100%.

RIP Elisa, and may there be justice.

commspecialist said:

IMO it had to have been a homicide.

I believe it is extremely unlikely that she was psychotic, primarily because Bipolar Type 2 (which Elisa was diagnosed with) does not manifest with true mania/psychosis, but hypomania. In rare cases I suppose it probably may happen. This is just knowledge that I have as a sufferer of depression myself, so I'm not an expert.

I believe someone despicable encountered or met Elisa, took advantage of her vulnerable state, and committed an atrocious crime.

And I also strongly believe that it's possible that the elevator video we see is of Elisa frantically attempting to leave a situation where she has realized she's been drugged; IMO, it is why she left without her glasses and seems collected at first - and like someone said in the main thread, there are safety guides for young travelers saying that you should press all the buttons so you throw off your attacker. I don't think she expected to hit Door Hold. I think it's possible that she began to hallucinate after the drugs began kicking in, explaining the sudden bizarre gestures and acting like she's talking to someone in the elevator. And from there my speculation runs dry.

JMO 100%.

RIP Elisa, and may there be justice.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for posting. Your personal experience is valuable in this case. But I did want to note that apparently psychosis does manifest in Bipolar II:
Abstract

INTRODUCTION:

Psychotic symptoms in bipolar II disorder, allowed by definition only during a depressive episode, are present in a range between 3% and 45%. Little is known regarding the impact of psychotic symptoms on the clinical course of bipolar II patients. Findings from previous reports are controversial and focused specifically on bipolar I disorder. The aim of this study was to ascertain the clinical characteristics of individuals with bipolar II disorder with and without lifetime history of psychotic symptoms.
METHODS:

The sample consisted of 164 DSM-IV Bipolar II patients consecutively recruited from the Barcelona Bipolar Disorder Program. Patients were divided in Bipolar II patients with (N=32) and without (N=132) lifetime history of psychotic symptoms. Clinical and sociodemographic features were compared.
RESULTS:

Thirty-two out of 164 patients with bipolar II disorder had a history of psychosis during depression (19.5%). Bipolar II patients with a history of psychotic symptoms showed a higher number of hospitalizations than patients without such a history (p<0.001). They were also older but were less likely to have a family history of bipolar illness and any mental disorder than non-psychotic bipolar II patients. Melancholic and catatonic features were significantly more frequent in psychotic bipolar II patients (p<0.001).
CONCLUSIONS:

Our findings confirm that the presence of psychotic symptoms in bipolar II disorder is not rare. Psychotic bipolar II disorder may be a different phenotype from non-psychotic bipolar disorder.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20457470

So my internet crapped out and I have no idea if this was posted or not.

I have no idea what happened to her. But since people are still talking about her behaviour on the elevator I will throw in my two cents:

What if she had just finished watching a scary movie? Think about it, you just finished watching a spooky movie, you've probably heard that the place was haunted, and then the elevator starts acting funny. It explains the jumping, the hiding, the hand gestures (Talking to herself), the smiling (Joking with herself about "Come on now, you really think a Zombie is going to come get you?"). The only problem with that theory is that it means she wasn't drugged, wasn't having a mental collapse, and no one was with her.

Sometimes I wish life was more like CSI, I don't think we'll ever get the full story. Even if someone does get charged for murder

I think it was premeditated homicide. I think the motive was her medicines. I think it was the odd behavior that made her stand out in the Cecil like a rabbit in a den of wolves. I don't think she was drugged intently in the video but is just the effects of her medications late at night after a glass of wine, when her body is tired and they are all that is keeping her going.

I have thought about who could have access to her room. Night-shift. --- Security. One of the Lobby Boys took her on a tour of the hotel and up to the roof through the door. --- Housekeeping. Her body could fit under a cleaning cart and be hidden temporarily or transported. Does housekeeping have keys to the roof? The cart would have to be cleaned of scent afterwards - wonder if anyone noticed someone sterilizing their cart.

Where was her room located?? Was it near a fire escape --- did it have an adjacent door? A resident, drug-addicted thief could pick the lock and enter her room if it had an adjacent door. They would have to be pretty brazen to carry her corpse up the fire escape, but it could be done if they had an Army duffel, etc. They would have to know about the water tank ahead of time.

Regardless of how it was done, I think both the presence of her odd behavior and her corpse in the water tank are good indicators of premeditation. I am hopeful that the LAPD are being so stringent about details because they already have a suspect and do not wish to spook him into hiding.

Drugs and Psychosis/Sleep Walking should be two separate categories, IMO. One is an external influence based on her own decision, the other is a symptom of a mental sickness.

If Elisa Lam did have a mental breakdown, it would be likely that she had exhibited those symptoms before - the past two years, during her trip, during her stay at the Cecil. If she didn't exhibit signs of sleep-walking / paranoia / etc... in the past, then it's highly unlikely that she had those symptoms then.

It's also important to be clear that Accidental - drug-induced is if she took drugs willingly, and either slipped into the water tank by herself, or died from a overdose and dumped into the water tank (which is a separate crime, not murder).

Pre-planned is interesting, because she died on her last day in LA. If she had stayed at the hotel for 20 days and died on her last, it would be suspicious. 5 days isn't much of a timeframe, but is still noteworthy. Perhaps the murderer realized he had to do something before she left. He would have to know when she would check out - pointing to a friend or a hotel employee.

For me, I do not think it's suicide. At this stage, I think each of the other options is equally possible.

- Possibly under the influence of Drugs/alcohol

- Is in the company with someone who Kills her inside the Hotel

- Moved to the roof....placed inside the Tank by someone familiar with the Building/roof

- Video better describing how she ends up inside the tank>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRa9nDWdmZo

I marked crime of opportunity but I think it could have also started as a weird accident that was then covered up.

I marked homicide/ crime of opportunity. I do believe that EL was sufferieng from mental illness and maybe even was demonstrating that on the video I do not think she could have put herself in that tank. The organization and steps required for her to end up as she did seem to involved for someone who is in a paranoid state to attend too.

The autopsy said that there is no apparent cause of death. Which means she did not drown, so that pretty much blows suicide out of the water.

The only way it could have been an accident now is if it was a drug overdose and someone covered it up, which in my opinion would make it homicide/manslaughter. So I guess accidental is out of the question too.

EmmaliLucia said:

The autopsy said that there is no apparent cause of death. Which means she did not drown, so that pretty much blows suicide out of the water.

The only way it could have been an accident now is if it was a drug overdose and someone covered it up, which in my opinion would make it homicide/manslaughter. So I guess accidental is out of the question too.

Click to expand...

The corner has not ruled that out yet.

"They didn't find any bullet holes, they didn't find any stab wounds to my knowledge. So then you've got to go to the next step," Los Angeles County Coroner's spokesman Ed Winter said.

"You see if in fact there were any heart issues, did she die of hypothermia, did she drown," said Winter. "Were her lungs filled with water?"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/22/us-usa-missingtourist-idUSBRE91I1BY20130222

After watching the elevator video countless times and reading through all 3 long threads devoted to Elisa Lam, I initially also thought in the video she was in an unconscious, possibly sleep walking or drug induced state of mind that led her to her death, either accidentally suicide or a victim of someone taking advantage of her unstable state.

What I finding interesting today is this very valuable tidbit info. from an online radio show that I used to listen too weekly. I was too occupied with catching up on Elisa Lam thread posts that I neglected listened to it for a week. So to speak, that radio program is based in Kong Kong, they were also very interested in Elisa Lam case. They mentioned there was an unknown tarrot card reader, that posted an message online on Feb. 17th that Elisa Lam was already dead and in the water tank, exactly 2 days before her body was found.

Below is what I will quote from an message that I sent today to an local DJ living in Los Angles,

Hi XX,

Just want to share this piece of info with you, food for thoughts. I just listened to this program online over the weekend, it's dating back to Friday Feb 22 HKT, it's a supernatural ghost encounter show. I was too preoccupied that week with Elisa Lam case so no time to catch up on that. However, they were also trying to find clue on that case and I just listened to the Feb 22 episode today where they asked two, tarrot master -one is an I-ching tarrot reader. Both of them have answer which might clue us in as to what might really happened to Elisa Lam.

If I don't mistaken, the autopsy report came out on Thursday Feb 21 PST, but in HK time that is Feb 22 maybe afternoon? So I find it interesting in their tarrot card reading, where both master saying an individual male that indirectly caused Elisa Lam to be killed, they said it's not an intentional homicide, so it's likely an indirect foul play/accident. And this killer is someone she's briefly met, maybe someone following her blog or someone she's newly met on her trip while she as in L.A. for an meetup. It's possible it's one of the Italian guy that's been stalking her since she's arrived in S. California on her trip. The biggest clue given was that, the killer already left the North and South America continent by Feb 22, that is why (if I'm not mistakenly there's a rumor that law enforcement has asked interpol for help on the case)... so it's likely someone who was traveling met Elisa Lam in the hotel or went by there for an meet up and fled after or before her body was found. That is a very significant clue, check out the names of the people that left the hotel area or left America at the time she was missing or found dead.

Sadly, the two also said the killer might never be catch, and that any clues to the case might take two month (exactly coincide close to the drug test result needing 4-6 weeks IIRC) while the other master said two season (which mean until the fall season). If you would like the link to the program for to hear yourself, I can give you the exact link for those who can understand the language in Cantonese.

Oh, and I forgot why they summoned the tarrot readers it's because they said on Feb 17, two days before Elisa Lam body was found, an unknown tarrot card reader, posted that she was already dead and near/in the water tanks, hence they summoned two different tarrot card readers for more clues on the case.

regards,

----end quote----

additional opinions:
I have an feeling EL thinking it's her last night in L.A. she might like to stay up on the roof to watch the sunrise before she leave the hotel and start packing for her next journey. It's pretty common for traveler to do that before they leave a place before they continue journey on to their next destination, at least commonly on travelogue T.V. episodes, so one might like to imitate.

-my ititial assessment was that she was drugged or sleep walking and someone took advantage of her or died due to overdoes. then my mind changed to possibly to suicide after overdoes on drug in an altered state of mind thinking she was in a game Left4Dead or Ryan Gosling song, "Buried in Water." But after hearing the radio program today and on her blog that she tells people not to suicide because of depression, and her famous quote "you're haunted by the idea you're wasting your life", this tells me it's almost contradicts her sayings.

noodled1 said:

The corner has not ruled that out yet.

"They didn't find any bullet holes, they didn't find any stab wounds to my knowledge. So then you've got to go to the next step," Los Angeles County Coroner's spokesman Ed Winter said.

"You see if in fact there were any heart issues, did she die of hypothermia, did she drown," said Winter. "Were her lungs filled with water?"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/22/us-usa-missingtourist-idUSBRE91I1BY20130222

Click to expand...

Ah, thank you for clarifying. In the report I read it made it seem like they did the entire autopsy, save for drug tests (Since those take a few weeks), and didn't find anything.

In my prior post I was focused on groups within the hotel that would have had access to both her room and the ability to unlock the alarm door accessing the roof. I forgot to mention Maintenance.

I've read in most forums of an early possible suspect - the "maintenance worker" / plumber who discovered her body in the water tank on Feb 13, the day the video was released, as if it spooked him out of hiding. There were also mysterious events such as "thumping" noises on the 4th floor followed by flooding, which would be a way for a plumber to tell registration to block off a set of rooms - by breaking or bending a water pipe either directly or indirectly via EL - blockage occured bewteen the 3rd and 4th floors, EL's hiding place?

But even as there is support for this plumbing idea, it presumes each maintenance worker mentioned in the media reports was the same man. It also depends on stories reported by news and not LE. It also has a possible hole - the search dogs -- but they did not go into every room, why not? Probable cause was needed. --- Who told the LAPD which rooms they could and could not search? ---

--- So it gets very complicated very quickly at such an early phase of the case. Arguing for premeditation in general requires reconstructing the plan, so it's premature due to the fact-distribution-restrictions by the LAPD.

Actually, I could accept an accidental death. A meet-up gone south to aggressive rape on her last day, an accidental death with a gag. A scared person hiding a corpse, never having planned for any of it to happen. But this just isn't an interesting way to fill my writing time.