CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

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RB's actions after his release do not seem be that of a guilty person who just got off on some technicality.
He still talks at conferences, he is suing for a great sum of money.
He is not a stupid person.
Why would anyone in his position, if guilty put themselves out there to the public to such a degree that might bring out some more witness sightings that could possible
be the ones to prove he did it.
If he were guilty, he would be out and slink away into the darkness and hope everyone forgets he ever existed in reference to EB's disappearance.

jmo
 
RB's actions after his release do not seem be that of a guilty person who just got off on some technicality.
He still talks at conferences, he is suing for a great sum of money.
He is not a stupid person.
Why would anyone in his position, if guilty put themselves out there to the public to such a degree that might bring out some more witness sightings that could possible
be the ones to prove he did it.
If he were guilty, he would be out and slink away into the darkness and hope everyone forgets he ever existed in reference to EB's disappearance.

jmo

Yes, I agree completely.
 
Thinking about you Elizabeth Bain,
On this eve of your disappearance 24yrs ago.
 
One of the reasons that Baltovich would put himself "out there to the public" as someone said, is that he was a very narcissistic person. If you know him, and I do know both him and the Bain's, people would agree with this profile of him. I believe the police did have a profile done of him, that described him exactly as that. His statements to Correctional Officer Fraser, that were partially declared inadmissible in 2008, in regards to "The only good thing about this is the money I will get" and the admissible section after Fraser said, "What if they find the body?" and Balotvich's response "There will be no chance of that" plus his demeanour of appearing to try too hard to help the police, does tend to show he truly believes that he is smarter than everybody. This is classic narcissistic behaivour.

I have always felt that Baltovich did kill her, but I've also always thought somebody else moved the body. I'm not sure if anybody else has ever had the same idea, since I have not read all the posts here yet. I also have a feeling who that person is, but I'm not sure about the legalities here of mentioning names.
 
One of the reasons that Baltovich would put himself "out there to the public" as someone said, is that he was a very narcissistic person. If you know him, and I do know both him and the Bain's, people would agree with this profile of him. I believe the police did have a profile done of him, that described him exactly as that. His statements to Correctional Officer Fraser, that were partially declared inadmissible in 2008, in regards to "The only good thing about this is the money I will get" and the admissible section after Fraser said, "What if they find the body?" and Balotvich's response "There will be no chance of that" plus his demeanour of appearing to try too hard to help the police, does tend to show he truly believes that he is smarter than everybody. This is classic narcissistic behaivour.

I have always felt that Baltovich did kill her, but I've also always thought somebody else moved the body. I'm not sure if anybody else has ever had the same idea, since I have not read all the posts here yet. I also have a feeling who that person is, but I'm not sure about the legalities here of mentioning names.

Quite a divide of opinion: here is a case where someone was accused of murder for killing his girlfriend with even less evidence (as far as I can tell and IMO) than with RB.

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0006/np000606.htm
 
One of the reasons that Baltovich would put himself "out there to the public" as someone said, is that he was a very narcissistic person. If you know him, and I do know both him and the Bain's, people would agree with this profile of him. I believe the police did have a profile done of him, that described him exactly as that. His statements to Correctional Officer Fraser, that were partially declared inadmissible in 2008, in regards to "The only good thing about this is the money I will get" and the admissible section after Fraser said, "What if they find the body?" and Balotvich's response "There will be no chance of that" plus his demeanour of appearing to try too hard to help the police, does tend to show he truly believes that he is smarter than everybody. This is classic narcissistic behaivour.

I have always felt that Baltovich did kill her, but I've also always thought somebody else moved the body. I'm not sure if anybody else has ever had the same idea, since I have not read all the posts here yet. I also have a feeling who that person is, but I'm not sure about the legalities here of mentioning names.

Welcome to Ws Snively and thanks for the interesting tidbits!
 
Jmo, but find it difficult to believe the corrections officer now that a detective has been accused of tampering with evidence - exculpatory evidence.

Did members of the Bain family lie on the stand - under oath? If so, why? To help LE convict RB? I'm guessing at that.

I don't know who killed this lovely young lady but LE, and those that may have played along with lying for them, look worse than RB, imo. LE has blown this now without a body to help decide what happened to her.
 
The one lie the defence pushed was the scene Liz's sister Cathy saw of Liz lying on her bed with tear stained makeup and clutching a rose to her chest. This did happen, but the rose part was an embellishment added, so yes technically it is a lie, but the tear stained makeup was 100% real. But the embellished part then completely takes away from valid testimony. This is how lawyers make a living, and Shakespeare had it right about lawyers.

I sat through the trial and the pain of family members along with a natural, no other way to put it, hatred of who they believe killed their daughter, along with the obvious nervousness that most people feel speaking in public, much less in a court, are abundantly clear. An exact transcript along with a lawyer and judge ruling a witness cannot explain their statement, does allow for many things to be taken completely out of context. Again, this part of a lawyers job. Ask a question in a way to get the answer you want and never ask a question you don't already know the answer to. Criminal law 101 and many hours spent watching Law & Order. lol
 
One piece of information that I can't recall and I can't find information on involves how the police came up with the distance they believe the car was driven after the last gas fill up. Was it because the odometer reading was recorded by Liz (many people do to keep track of expenses and I believe her work did cover expenses if a personal vehicle was used for business purposes), did they simply take the trip meter reading at face value, or did the police measure the remaining fuel found in the tank and estimate the distance driven from there? The only truly accurate method would be if Liz recorded the value which if she did, would eliminate my following thought.

When moving the body a simple jerry can of fuel (don't risk stopping at a gas station) could be used to add fuel for a trip further away than what the police concluded was 176km. Using that number and the fact that Baltovich had knowledge of the Lake Scugog area were the concluding factor that's where the body was hidden. Considering that I think a friend of Baltovich's moved the body the same night she was murdered by Baltovich, I think the police should be looking in the Muskoka Woods campsite area. Without interviewing this individual I do still believe he had knowledge of Muskoka Woods including recent pictures (2007) on his Flickr page and prior knowledge as a kid from going to camp in the area.

My location may be wrong depending on the methodology the police used to come up with the 176km number. Also I may be wrong about the individual I think transported the body because I can't recall his alibi for the night of the murder. I like to think the police asked. But anytime after 6:45 pm (that looks like the latest time she was killed) up to the next morning the body was moved from where it was left in the park to the car and transported away from the scene. It's about 2 hours return to Muskoka Woods so the car could easily be driven north and left outside the body shop before anybody came in the morning. This is well within even the timeline that any witnesses reportedly saw her car including the early morning siting near Hwy. 7 and Hwy. 12. Dibben was on his way to work to Maple at a concrete pre-cast plant and they do start early in the morning. I don't recall the exact time he said he saw the car, but typically a plant would be running at 7am (I have dealt with the plant he worked at, many times) and a drive of around an hour to work in the morning would place it 5:30 to 6:00 am if not slightly earlier. From that point it's a 30-45 minute drive further on to Scarborough if you wanted to call it an hour. Most body shops open at 8am and the best people remember seeing the car was sometime in the morning so it would be there easily before any employee even got there.

The person was a friend of Baltovich and was confirmed to be trying to sway a witness, along with Batovich himself, to change his testimony about the time the witness saw Baltovich in the gym. This individual was seen holding hands with Liz on walks behind Baltovich's back and this was corroborated with his mention in her diary. A little blackmail from Baltovich on to this person (she felt guilty doing this and wanted to break it off; his alibi may have been as flimsy as Baltovich, maybe Baltovich just mad at this going on and willing to outright lie to the police about this guy) and this person may just felt scared enough to go along with hiding the body for Baltovich.
 
welcome snively;
The person that was holding hands with liz behind RB's back, as mentioned in her diary, was not a friend of RB's. In fact RB had never met him till after
she disappeared. He asked him to meet him so he could find out if he knew anything and exactly what their relationship was. RB had only heard this guys
name mentioned.
Actually RB thought that this was the guy waiting outside Liz's classroom, that RB saw from being on the 2nd floor above the classroom looking down. Because of his malado complexion which was how liz described the guy to RB.
The person in liz's diary, his initials are EG. Again, RB had never met this guy till after liz went missing.

As for using names on this site, it is best to use only initials. Liz's name is ok because this is a thread for her.

thanks again for joining.
 
as for what the correctional officer stated, he took what RB said way out of context. RB merely surmising during a conversation that it didn't seem likely she would be found as the amount of time that had gone by and no trace of her. The corrections officer along with a little help from the detectives, used it out of context for their benefit. I'm sure you can understand how simple things people say can be blown way out of proportion and context. And as for the book comment, well why not, if he's innocent, anyone of us would have thought and said the same thing.
 
snively, 2 days after RB was arrested, the forensics team told det. raybould that their theory of the crime did not fit the evidence they found.
no deceased body could have been in the car for 3 days before transport, nor was a deceased body from the tuesday night put in the car on the thurs night
to transport. this was impossible and forensics told him that as per rayboulds own notes which he never turned over, and in fact he replaced the page
in his notes with another and renumber the page to make it look like still in sequence.
to me that is a criminal offense in itself.
the detectives had witness's lie, or alter their testimony, and suppressed a crucial witness sighting that clearly backed up another witness sighting, both independant of each other, and within an hour of each other, both placing liz in her car with a male driver, first at around 7;15-730pm and then the 2nd one at around 8-830pm.
the one sighting of the lady with the car at the 3r auto body shop, at first she was a prosecution witness as her sighting came to light very quickly. by the time the trial came, the prosecution did everything they could on the stand to discredit her as a flake because her sighting was after 7pm, and they knew about the other sighting they were hiding.
the other sighting, this gentleman went to the bains house when he saw the paper about her missing, they put him on to raybould who took a 7 page witness statement from him, and at the trial or pre-trial, this gentleman came to it and asked the detective if they were gonna use him cause he knew he seen her afterwards, and they told him to go away, they didn't need him.
some years later he contacted the private investigator for RB and told him his story and produced a copy of the statement he gave to det raybould, signed by none other than raybould himself.
 
snively, please understand, this thread is not about a plea for RB, this is about finding liz and bringing her home to her family.
whatever that takes. thats our goal.

as for RB, i know him as well, and i can very easily understand how the police would find him a bit odd. as for your narcissis comment, i don't know
if he is, im not a shrink, however, even if he is, that does not make him or anyone like that a murderer. what that does is allow uninformed detectives
to get tunnel vision based on a persons quirkiness, and not the facts. because all the facts state he's innocent, they never caught him in a lie. his whole
account of that night was always backed up, just that the police either hid witness statements, played on ppls emotions so they either lie or alter their testimony.
the biggest shame of this whole thing, other than what has happened to liz, is how the police used the emotions of the bain family to further their case.
nothing is more powerful than the victims family on tv or in the paper, hinting that they know who hurt their daughter, so everyone would know it was rob.
the police told the bains, or at least mr. bain, that they had evidence that it was RB, no one else. and of course the family acted as they did, as would yours or mine. we are taught to trust the police.
you mentioned RB showed his guilt by being to helpful to police. i think you have been watching to many tv shows as i have lol. that is also the expected actions of an innocent person whos loved one has disappeared and possibly was murdered. wouldn't you do everything you could and be of any help you could be if you were in that position. i think what you are referring to with over helping the police is either a stranger, or a person more distant to liz that RB or her family.
and when RB was advised to stop helping so much and searching, then that made him look guilty too. so what does that tell us about society and the way we view things now. he helps too much and he's guilty, he doesn't help enough and he's guilty. what that tells us is that everyones mind was already made up and RB had no chance. he was guilty and had to prove his innocence.
were you aware that liz's brother MB is a super narcisist and only went on the first 2 searches and then no more. and this is her own brother. the same one that lied on the stand about his whereabouts that night, because by saying he was at school till 10pm that means his car wasn't in the driveway at just after 9pm as RB says, so that makes RB looke like a liar. MB was not at school that night.
the police also said RB was lying about being on the 2nd level waiting to see if liz was in class, and he seen a guy waiting outside the class he thought was the guy liz described as EG. Well the police had the statement of that guy who was outside the classroom and he stated that he in fact saw RB up on the 2nd level looking down.
but that statement was never forwarded either.
 
snively, i hope you keep posting, if you do know the bain family and were around through all that, you may know something without knowing it
that could really help us find liz. we could use all the help we can get from any source.
and i want you to know, i have researched this case for many years, with the only focus of finding liz, and if i ever came across any evidence whatsoever
that pointed to RB as the guilty party, i would not hesitate for a second to inform the proper authorities of it.
 
Thanks eyesonly,

I would dispute that RB knew EG. If they didn't go to high school and elementary school together, they definitely knew each other from the UofT. Of that there is no question. EG even went as far, as along with RB, trying to get the witness to change the time RB was seen in the gym. This is referred to in R. v. Baltovich, 2008 19208 (ON SC) from February 15, 2008 in section 10. Now if they didn't know each other why would he try to get the witness to change his testimony?

Also, EG wasn't the guy outside the classroom. I know EG and he is definitely not mulatto.

EG is definitely mentioned in the diary, only by first name mind, but the letter E in EG is the same mentioned in the diary.
 
Again, no offence eyesonly, but I would have to disagree. If you were arrested wouldn't you be very careful about what you say around people, particularly those associated with law enforcement, whether you are innocent or not?

And call me old fashioned, but the last thing I would ever be thinking about in a situation like this, is future book sales. At the very least it's a tasteless comment, but I think I'd be more relieved that I wasn't in jail any longer and just want to get as far away as possible from the situation. To me this does tend to show the "me first" culture. Then again, I think selfies show a narcissistic tendency, and many scientists and shrinks do as well.
 
snively, are you saying that the E person who tried to sway someones time, is the same person as the E in the diary. from my research, these
are two different people. i am going to look over some stuff right now, in the meantime can you elaborate on how and why you believe they
are the same person other than having the same first name, thank you.

and if one were a narcisist, and lets say an innocent narrcisist at that, would the book statement make more sense to that type of personality. and yes
at the very least a tasteless comment.

and never any offence taken snively.
 
12345, sorry accidentally pasted a previous post here and not sure how to erase it
 
I always have thought the police had the wrong time the body was moved. I think she was killed in the park by RB in a rage then later moved that night by another person. The forensics report that showed up as a note on a piece of foolscap tend to back this up. I believe the other person was EG, and he got involved because either RB was blackmailing him, knowing he would also become a suspect, or EG was actually with Liz at the moment and witnessed what happened. Again, I don't know if the police ever checked into EG's whereabouts that night.

I'd tend to dispute both witnesses testimonies due to the first not being able to identify either occupant of the car she saw nor even the car itself. The second witness also couldn't identify the car yet recalled the face he saw. Possibly, but the real thing I always remember about the car were the fake plastic fingers on the doors as bump guards. Pretty distinctive on a small silver car.

But either way if you take the witness reports for real, she could have been killed when RB first saw her car in the park and before he went to the gym if the sightings are discounted, or after he left the gym and before he went to look for her at the classroom. His time of playing volleyball until 10:30 become irrelevant, since he wasn't the one to move the body.
 
No worries eyesonly, I totally understand it's not about a plea for RB and all about finding Liz. Nothing I write makes any difference without a police report into actual timelines of peoples whereabouts anyways and is just a thought I've had for over 20 years. I do base my ideas on available knowledge of the case, but my idea as to EG moving the body could be discounted very quickly if the police have the information of his location on that night.

I would also base my idea on RB being the killer simply due to jealousy. Plenty of murders are put down, and correctly, to jealousy. There is no dispute she was seeing others behind RB's back (to what degree only Liz and those few would know). But I can bet RB thought it was a lot more than just hand holding!

The one thing I no is BS (that's not person's initials! lol) is trying to pin it on Bernardo. The ridiculous notion about the pack of DuMauriers (everybody smoked either those or Players) is just dumb. She smoked them occasionally as well as did her sister and about half of Toronto. Smoking wasn't banned then. lol

As for the radio tuned to 102.1, well that was a popular station (pretty crappy these days, mind lol) and again a large number of people listened to it.

The blonde guy she was seen with I still think is EG.
 
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