Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gruffin said:
I know it would be bizarre if the Lyon Sisters were swallowed alive and buried by a creek a few inches deep. But the creek near here with a deeply undercut moderately scary bank has less of a flow than the one there, and the vegetation about the creek in the photo has probably changed greatly, especially near Drumm--it may have been a deeper gully formerly. Still, I tried for a couple hours searching online for cases where small creeks have buried people with stream bank failure, and have found nothing (though in limestone areas (unlike Kensington) sinkholes can and do swallow people, and people often get swept away during floods when creek banks they are walking on collapse). Any such phenomenon if possible must be extremely unlikely.
Click to expand...

The 1942 topographic map of the area, which I previously mentioned discussing the age of Drumm Ave, would also show how deep the gully was and likely still is. Each elevation line is 10 feet:

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm7.bmp

One, much less two people, being naturally trapped in that gully seems unlikely to me, much less a bank collapse not being noticed and their bodies not being found. I would go with a human murderer helping bury them in the gully. But others seem confident that police with police dogs would spot any grave.
 
Over the weekend I ran into someone I know who lives on Drumm Ave today and for the last twenty years. He only lived on Drumm Ave. for about twenty years, but his neighbors told him 1) Drumm Ave was once a through street and 2) it was UNPAVED and difficult to drive on.

Unrelated to the Lyon case, he also told me once someone dumped a murder victim or drug-overdose victim on the road in the gap between the orchid and nursing home, presumedly because for the suburban area, it is an isolated place to dump a body unobserved.

On some other thread, someone said they looked up the property records and Drumm Ave was named "Warner Road/Street" in 1892. For some reason I thought I saw it on a 1940/50s map as "Keener Road/Street" but I am not inclined to think my memory is inaccurate (as the memory of some kid(s) who saw the girls that day) and it was "Warner Road/Street. I do remember thinking what a coincidence that two girls would be killed or abducted on a street that sounds like "Warn Her."

I was actually surprised to find that Drumm/Warner Ave/St/Road was that old and there were other now-torn-down buildings on it prior to WWII, since from the 1942 map there were only a dozen or so building in the McComas/Plyers Mill Area. The Forest Glen/Castle/National Seminary/Walter Reed Annex that Welch liked to hang out around in also had old abandoned property.
 
It's not Drumm Ave or the woods, but this I am pretty sure is Faulkner Place in 1975 look up towards the mall, turn-around circle and swimclub, pretty much like it is today. That would be Coronada Pl on the right.

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm8.bmp

Walking home, the girls would have walked a few houses past the camera's position, and turned left down Drumm. The people in the photo are walking towards the mall.

I am still looking for photos of Drumm Ave. or the woods at the time.
I only found one "description" of the woods as "creepy," but aside from not explaining why it was creepy (dark?, old farm property?), after the crime, people might have a biased view of the path. Even a nice path where two people were abducted from might become creepy.

And for some Wheaton/Kensington history or sign of the times, the swim and tennis club next to the mall that the girls walked past (entrance at top right of photo) in the 60s and early 70s not only discriminated against most blacks, but every single black person including one medial doctor who applied for membership. The case went to the Supreme Court in 1973, which ruled for the black doctor in Tillman vs. Wheaton-Haven Recreation Association.
 
I would have guessed that Warner Road would have been named for some dirt-poor farm who plowed a narrow dirt road between McComas and Plyers Mill Road.

But it turns out that Brainard H. Warner was a serious real estate and electric railroad businessman who developed the initial Victorian town of Kensington and was involved with building an electric railroad line (trolley) from Chevy Chase to Kensington.

They even tried to raise money in 1907 to extend this electric railroad north through Montgomery and Howard Counties all the way to Ellicott City, which might have been a good idea being better than horses for transportation, but automobiles soon became better than trains for most transportation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=un...v=onepage&q=B.H. Warner kensington md&f=false

From that 1906 map that shows the built electric railroad line and where it would need to be built to go north, which is where Warner/Drumm Ave is.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm9.bmp

There is also another Warner Road in Kensington today which makes googling the road difficult.
 
Gruffin said:
I know it would be bizarre if the Lyon Sisters were swallowed alive and buried by a creek a few inches deep. But the creek near here with a deeply undercut moderately scary bank has less of a flow than the one there, and the vegetation about the creek in the photo has probably changed greatly, especially near Drumm--it may have been a deeper gully formerly. Still, I tried for a couple hours searching online for cases where small creeks have buried people with stream bank failure, and have found nothing (though in limestone areas (unlike Kensington) sinkholes can and do swallow people, and people often get swept away during floods when creek banks they are walking on collapse). Any such phenomenon if possible must be extremely unlikely. .
Click to expand...

Two lost South Dakota teens who went missing in 1971 turned out to be in an automobile accident and their bodies and entire car were underwater and undiscovered for decades. One local sex criminal was charged with the "murders."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ebaker-creek-two-teens-went-missing-1971.html

Of course a ditch big enough to hide a car is not the same as a two inch deep creek and South Dakota is not suburban Montgomery County, but it does show that accidents can happen and in rare cases remain undetected. It also shows that police searches can miss an entire car.

In a 100 by 100 yard wooded area, I would give little chance of an accident not being discovered, but if the girls walked a mile or two away, the area increases at the square of the distance.

Being "swallowed by a creek" is only one of a number of accidents that could happen if the girls walked off further to or beyond Kensington.

Chandra Levy was having an affair with a congressman, but was murdered by a different man in Rock Creek Park; her unburied remains were not discovered for a year, and then only by chance, since little was left after small animals found her body.

I suppose as some people have suggested, an accident followed by a third-party cover-up such as a hit and run or covering up an accident on one's property (to avoid a lawsuit or legal action for having a danger on property) is also a possibility.

However, I still like Welch, loosing his temper Jeffery MacDonald style, walking to Kensington thinking of what to do, and doing the best he could do to hide the crime.
 
The grass is growing and bushes are starting to turn green, so before the area becomes too overgrown to see, I took some high-resolution photos (on April 17) of the start of path (Jennings Road/Place) and where the path ended on Drumm Ave.

The photos are 5 MB photos so they may take time to download.

Wide view of Jennings Place start of path.
Note large, new house in backgroung which is Drumm Court, which was not there in 1975, although an older house may have been from the 1942 map.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm11.jpg

Right-side close-up of Jennings Place start of path area.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm12.jpg

Left-side close-up of Jenning Place start of path area.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm13.jpg


Footpath connecting two sections of Drumm Ave today:
The Creek is to the right past the posts.

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm14.jpg

which may match the old 1975 news photo from the trees?
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm5.bmp

Wide view of small (dry today) creek off Drumm Ave:
Note the chest-high fences in both the foreground and background for scale.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm15.jpg

Upper View of small (dry today) creek off Drumm Ave.
http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm16.jpg
 
by a neighbor kid at the time. From the narrow and dark description, I would assume that the path was under and between trees, and not an old driveway or sewer right of way. No mention was made of old buildings either because they were demolished by 1975 or they were there and just not mentioned by the writher. Likewise no mention was made of path being wet or steep, either because the path was not steep or wet or the author just did not mention it.


"All the area kids walked to Wheaton Plaza and Kenmont Swim & Tennis Club. The kids from our end of Jennings Rd walked to Wheaton Plaza by going up Jennings Rd, cutting through the woods, up Drumm to Faulkner by the Kenmont Swim & Tennis Club. At the end of Faulkner was a grass hill. Walk up the grass hill and you are in the parking lot at the Montgomery Wards end of the plaza.

The wooded area between Jennings and Drumm was thickly wooded with a narrow path. It was fairly dark on a sunny day. On the Drumm side of the woods were huge concrete drain pipes left by construction never finished. Next to the woods was a nursing home, with a pond.

The section of Drum between Plyers Mill and McComas was no more than a gravel road and that was incomplete because there was the Kensington Orchard.

The only other way up was to go all the way up Jennings to Maybrook Ave wind around to McComas and cut up the "hippie path". No one from our end of Jennings went all the way up to the "hippie path". The climb up the hill was steep, and wooded. It led you out to the parking lot near the bowling alley. There was no need to go all the way up to the "hippie path", and it took you out of the way."

From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6560&page=23
 
After reading 33 pages of posts on another thread here last night, many of the posts by Richard and jogging up Drumm Ave and Faulkner Pl countless times, I have reached the conclusion that the risk of being spotted on either street is high. Of course one can't assume criminals are smart, but if one was just trying to kidnap any girl(s), Plyers Mill Road, just west of Drumm as it passes over the stream by the old Orchid would be far better for an abduction.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&...s&ei=muZSU73BNNGiyASF6IKYBQ&ved=0CBwQ8gEoATAA

1. The sidewalk comes near and right next to the road to cross the bridge.
2. There were no houses; none of the new developments were there at the time.
3. There is enough through traffic on Plyers Mill Road that people will not notice even someone driving up and down the street ten times.
4. The traffic is fast enough and far enough from the sidewalk on the other parts of Plyers Mill Road so that people will not get a look at one's face. On Faulker or Drumm, there is a good chance someone would walk or drive by within 10 feet.
5. If one spots a good-looking target a few hundred yards away, one could turn around and pace the approach.
6. Plyers Mill is not a no-outlet street like Faulker Pl. or one-lane like Drumm when cars are parked on both sides.
7. One could stop, ask for directions to something ahead, then say, "Do you want a ride there."
8. If by chance someone pops up or a car slows and notices, one could abort the abduction and just give them a ride and/or say, "Thanks for the directions."
Of course a violent, forceful abduction noticed anywhere would be a problem, but more of a problem on Drumm or Faulkner where a car could be boxed in by one other car.

On the other hand, if one specifically wanted, became obsessed with, the Lyon Sisters, and one knew enough information to pretend to be a friend of the family, the "Your parents are in the hospital; come with me," trick might work anywhere, as Mrs. Lyon thought.
 
steveP120 said:
"All the area kids walked to Wheaton Plaza and Kenmont Swim & Tennis Club. The kids from our end of Jennings Rd walked to Wheaton Plaza by going up Jennings Rd, cutting through the woods, up Drumm to Faulkner by the Kenmont Swim & Tennis Club. At the end of Faulkner was a grass hill. Walk up the grass hill and you are in the parking lot at the Montgomery Wards end of the plaza.

The wooded area between Jennings and Drumm was thickly wooded with a narrow path. It was fairly dark on a sunny day. On the Drumm side of the woods were huge concrete drain pipes left by construction never finished. Next to the woods was a nursing home, with a pond.

The section of Drum between Plyers Mill and McComas was no more than a gravel road and that was incomplete because there was the Kensington Orchard.

The only other way up was to go all the way up Jennings to Maybrook Ave wind around to McComas and cut up the "hippie path". No one from our end of Jennings went all the way up to the "hippie path". The climb up the hill was steep, and wooded. It led you out to the parking lot near the bowling alley. There was no need to go all the way up to the "hippie path", and it took you out of the way."

From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6560&page=23
Click to expand...

I marked up the following Google Map with the two above described paths to the mall. I added a third possible path on Peregory Drive, which was not mentioned as a usual walkway, likely because it is a long-cut.

http://www.freevocabulary.com/drumm15.bmp

Although there is now a paved walking path just to the right of my map, I still see people walking the "hippie path," but hippies are obviously long gone. I would imagine it was called the "hippie path" because it was a good spot to drink, smoke, or do things that one should not do at the mall or at home. I would imagine Welch liked to hang out at places like this. While Welch walked past the woods on Drumm Ave as he walked from the mall to train tracks in Kensington, it is still unknown if the Drumm Ave woods was used as a (hippie) hangout.
 
Montgomery County Police and the FBI came out in early February with their press conference naming Lloyd Welch as a person of interest in the Lyon case. They stated that he was at Wheaton Plaza on the day the girls went missing and that they were seeking any eyewitnesses who could confirm that he was there or who could give them further information about Welch and his activities.

Since that press conference, there has been no further information from either the FBI or from MCP.

Since Mr. Welch has permanent lodgings at a Delaware state prison, it would seem an easy thing for them to interview him at their leisure. They are not bound by any statute of limitations in this case and are not under any time constraints in regard to holding him in confinement. Hopefully by now they have any information about him that the general public can provide.
 
Richard said:
Montgomery County Police and the FBI came out in early February with their press conference naming Lloyd Welch as a person of interest in the Lyon case. They stated that he was at Wheaton Plaza on the day the girls went missing and that they were seeking any eyewitnesses who could confirm that he was there or who could give them further information about Welch and his activities.

Since that press conference, there has been no further information from either the FBI or from MCP.

Since Mr. Welch has permanent lodgings at a Delaware state prison, it would seem an easy thing for them to interview him at their leisure. They are not bound by any statute of limitations in this case and are not under any time constraints in regard to holding him in confinement. Hopefully by now they have any information about him that the general public can provide.
Click to expand...

Wasn't Welch up for parole this summer or soon? I thought I'd read that?
 
Richard said:
Getting back to Welch as a person of interest...

I wonder just what connections he had to the area, besides just hanging out at the mall.

Questions that come to mind would be who were his buddies? Who did he hang out with?

More specifically, did he have any connections to any of the eyewitnesses who came forward, such as the two boys driving down Drumm?
Click to expand...

I just listened to the video of the Montgomery County police and the news release of when they named him a likely suspect, he was a carnie and traveled with the carnivals. These carnival's set up in Mall parking lots.
 
Regarding Mr. Welch and his location today; he is alive and incarcerated in the Delaware State Prison System. Here are some details:

From VINE inmate locator and Victim information, Welch appears in two places -
1. As an inmate serving time for unspecified convictions AND
2. As an offender with current (unspecified) charges pending.

-------------------------------------
Offender Details (Serving time on previous convictions)

Offender Name: LLOYD L WELCH
Date of Birth: 12/30/1956
Age: 57
Race: White
Gender: Male
Custody Status: In Custody
Location of Offender: James T. Vaughn Correctional Center
Reporting Agency Delaware Department of Correction

Scheduled Release Date: 06/2026

------------------------------
Offender with pending court case:

Name: LLOYD WELCH
Case ID: 1311013901
Race:
Gender:
Court Location: Delaware Courts
Case Status: Open

Name WELCH, LLOYD L
Date of Birth 12/30/1956
Age 57
Custody Status In Custody
Agency/Reason James T. Vaughn Correctional Center
Reporting Agency Delaware Department of Correction

LINK:

https://www.vinelink.com/vinelink/d...8000&agency=1&id=00373865&searchType=offender


Recent photo of Welch (warning its pretty scarry)...

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/2ab...14/02/11//1392142688000-lloyd-welch-2008.jpeg
 
Hello. Tonight I was going through my old posts just for kicks and I came across the posts of a person who had lived in Kensington at the time. She reported that her sister and a friend saw a strange man on their way to Wheaton Plaza the same day the Lyon sisters disappeared. The sister was interviewed by police, but when her description didn't match that of TRM, the police dropped it. I thought I'd post the links to those old posts for consideration.

ginsack said:
[...]

My older sister and her friend also walked to Wheaton Plaza that day. They saw an unusual looking man sitting on the grass hill between Faulkner and the Montgomery Wards parking lot examining some objects in a bag. He was alarming enough that my sister and her friend skirted way around him. This information was given to the police.

[...]
Click to expand...

and

ginsack said:
As I stated, it was my older sister and her friend who saw the odd man sitting on the hill between Faulkner and Mont. Ward parking lot. Yes, my sister did give the police a description. He did not look like the Tape Recorder Man. That was the end of the discussion no one ever ask my sister about the man she saw again.
Click to expand...
 
Fukiyama said:
Hello. Tonight I was going through my old posts just for kicks and I came across the posts of a person who had lived in Kensington at the time. She reported that her sister and a friend saw a strange man on their way to Wheaton Plaza the same day the Lyon sisters disappeared. The sister was interviewed by police, but when her description didn't match that of TRM, the police dropped it. I thought I'd post the links to those old posts for consideration.



and
Click to expand...

This is a very good example of how tunnel vision can harm a case. LE should have followed up on all tips and at some point they finally decided that TRM was not a factor. Was he real? Yes, he was real and came forward stating that he had been doing his TRM thing but was not at WP on 3/25/75 and he an alibi that checked out. JMO
 
It is true that TRM was seen at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975 and also on at least three other occasions at Wheaton Plaza prior to that date.

It is also true that an individual came forward to Montgomery County Police claiming to be a Tape Recorder Man BUT he claimed that he had ONLY done his tape recorder thing in Prince Georges County and NEVER in Montgomery County.

MCP investigators at the time aparently accepted his story about being the PG County TRM, and they accepted his story about being in a car accident on 25 March 1975 (meaning that HE could not have been the TRM seen at Wheaton Plaza that day).

That did not, however, cause them to completely disregard their analysis of TRM at Wheaton Plaza or to abandon him as a person of interest in the case. In fact, they were still trying to connect potential suspect Fred Howard Coffey, Jr. to TRM when he came to light in 1986.

MCP did not think it important enough to report to the press or general public that this "PG ONLY TRM" had come forward. The story was initially told to me during a conversation that I had with case officers some 25 or 30 years after the girls disappeared. And even then, they expressed doubt as to whether or not the guy was on the level or just a self-confessing nut who wanted to get into the act.

There were, in fact, many individuals who called in false leads, and hoaxes concerning the Lyon case in 1975.

All that said, I agree with you in that tunnel vision can hamper any case. All clues or calls should be handled with an open mind and an eye to other possible scenarios. I would hope that this was actually done by the MCP officers in 1975 and those case officers assigned to in the years following.

Regarding the TRM, MCP only issued two composite sketches which appeared in print and TV media in April 1975. When they were unable to generate positive leads through those sketches, MCP moved on to other things. It has mainly been the news media which over the years has continued to show the TRM sketch and relate the story in the many re-tellings on occasions.

Several Washington area TV stations actually showed the TRM sketch during the February 2014 MCP/FBI press conference about Welch. You may recall that there was a big Teaser broadcast in the news the day before saying that there would be a big announcement the next day. In prepararation, many news services dug out all they had in their files including old photos and the TRM sketch to show during the next days feature news conference - which turned out to be about Welch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 215 more.
Total: 3,345 (members: 216, guests: 3,129)

Online statistics

Members online
216
Guests online
3,129
Total visitors
3,345
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,337
Messages
17,967,766
Members
228,752
Latest member
Cindy88
Back
Top