Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #1

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I have never posted any side by side comparisons of the TRM sketches with photos of any potential suspects for a very good reason: to do so would invalidate anyone's subsequent identification of that suspect as TRM. All the defense lawyer would have to say is that the witness COULD have seen such a comparison on the internet, and the witness evidence would be disallowed in court, ......

The police, both the local county police and FBI, did just this at a news conference with the sketch of the Long Hair Man (LHM) and Welch. The police must have known that they were ruining any chance for a fair lineup, but had no other options.

Back in late 2013, the police just did release a sketch of Long Hair Man alone without the photo or any claim of knowing Welch. Either the police did not know Welch, which brings up the question of why after making the LHM sketch in 1975, they failed to find LHM in 1975 or the police knew Welch and did not release one of the few 1970s photographs of Welch for fear of biasing any witnesses.
 
I was 13 years old in 1975. I had gone to Wheaton Plaza that spring 1975 with my good friend. We were approached by a man at the back side of Woodward & Lothrop, outside, who told us he was the drummer for Paul McCartney's Wings band. He told us he would take us to meet the other players in the band and to get in his car. I can't believe we did it but we did. As we approached Dart Drug on Viers Mill Road, I got real scared and whispered to my friend to jump out of the car at the next red light. We did and ran back towards Wheaton Plaza. I told my father who took me that night to the Montgomery County police station on Randolph Road. They were very non-chalant about the entire ordeal. I never heard a word back from the police after that night. I think it was a week before the Lyons sisters disappeared from the Plaza.

I remember he was a white man, tall and skinny with dark hair and glasses. He wore a hat. I remember when Laura Hoeteling (spelling?) was murdered and they found her murderer. It startled me bacause he looked exactly like the man who tried to drive away with me and my friend. I called the police many times to tell them this story but no one has ever returned my calls.

This could be a lie by a man trying to pick up girls, especially if they looked sixteen years old, for a party or date, and 99% of the time not try anything illegal later; telling a lie for a date or sex is unethical but not illegal.

But given that the real killer might have made several failed attempts prior to a "success" with Lyon sisters, I would think the police would have sought and studied information on all "pick-up" attempts on anyone under eighteen.

Of course not everything on the Internet is true or the full story.
 
If the "friend's" time recall is correct and he (I think it was a male friend of their brother's, right) did see the girls between 2:30 and 3 pm that day already back in the neighborhood. They're decision to leave the mall early (curfew not until 4pm) would suggest that they were giving themselves extra time to make it home. What pre-teen girl would leave the mall to beat curfew by an hour'? Unless, they had planned a detour. .

After a couple of hours at the mall, the girls could have been bored having seen everyone and everything at the mall.

It's a good point that they had an hour or more to spare to think of something else to do before 4 PM or to be talked into something else to do.

Something else to do could be hanging out in the woods for a bit, going to a friends house or walking to the Kensington historic shopping district, about 10 to 15 minutes from their house or last seen location.

They could have made it as far as the Kensington Park Library and back by 4 PM, if they liked the library.

Not being seen in any populated area would suggest they never made it to any populated area.

Crossing Plyers Mill road, the road their house was on or Metropolitan Ave near the railroad tracks, would be an opportunity to be hit by a speeding car. But it would take a cover-up or an aborted attempt to drive a dying girl to Holy Cross Hospital to cover up a fatal car accident, in addition to the accident not being seen.
 
"Police said detectives are trying to find security guards who worked at Wheaton Plaza in 1975 and might have had some contact with Welch, particularly one who held the rank of captain."

I can't believe that police and FBI didn't bother to interview every security guard at the mall, especially security leadership. WTF! They should have ALL their names and statements. Also seems to me if you want to have a better idea of where Welch was, get his tax returns.

At the least it's very bad recordkeeping by the police.

The police should have made a written list of the names of all security guards, a checklist to follow, and written down the names and descriptions of any suspicious characters, mainly shoplifters, bums and girl/woman watchers.

I have a bad feeling the "some contact with Welch" might be the security guard seeing the police sketch of LHM and saying something like, "That's Mike or Lee. He hangs out here with the kids all the time. He might shoplift, but I have not seen him cause any other trouble."

Keep in mind there must have been fifty or a hundred other people at the mall for police to look at including Tape Recorder Man, and Welch did NOT have a serious adult criminal record at the time.

We don't know if it's connected to the mall security guards, but from the timeline, Welch did provide his Hyattsville address to the police on April 1, 1975.
 
New news article posted today which I got a google alert for I thought I would post it for your all.

"CARY — Marshall Dietz stopped at a traffic light outside of Washington, D.C., on April 7, 1975, and he glanced over at the car next to him.

What he saw in that backseat has haunted him for 39 years, at times taking him into a world of child-killers, Internet theorists, police suspects and strangers’ lives.

“It was Sheila,” said Dietz, 66, who now lives in Cary."

http://www.carynews.com/2014/04/21/3799629/a-chance-sighting-haunts-cary.html?sp=/99/586/
 
New news article posted today which I got a google alert for I thought I would post it for your all.

"CARY — Marshall Dietz stopped at a traffic light outside of Washington, D.C., on April 7, 1975, and he glanced over at the car next to him.

What he saw in that backseat has haunted him for 39 years, at times taking him into a world of child-killers, Internet theorists, police suspects and strangers’ lives.

“It was Sheila,” said Dietz, 66, who now lives in Cary."

http://www.carynews.com/2014/04/21/3799629/a-chance-sighting-haunts-cary.html?sp=/99/586/

Mr. Deitz has contributed a number of posts to websleuths regarding his experiences and sighting of what he believes was the Lyon sisters in the back of a Station Wagon in Manassas, Virginia on 1 April 1975, a week after the girls went missing.

On that day, another man - described only as someone working for IBM - reported seeing a single man who resembled the Tape Recorder Man driving through Manassas, Virginia in a Tan 1968 Ford Station Wagon with Maryland Tags, and that there were two girls in the back tied up and gagged.

This became front page news and led to a number of cars being pulled over by interested parties.

Mr. Deitz has stated that he also saw the station wagon that same time in Manassas and that he, too, reported it to Montgomery County Police.
 
quote:
Originally Posted by Richard

I have never posted any side by side comparisons of the TRM sketches with photos of any potential suspects for a very good reason: to do so would invalidate anyone's subsequent identification of that suspect as TRM. All the defense lawyer would have to say is that the witness COULD have seen such a comparison on the internet, and the witness evidence would be disallowed in court, ......


The police, both the local county police and FBI, did just this at a news conference with the sketch of the Long Hair Man (LHM) and Welch. The police must have known that they were ruining any chance for a fair lineup, but had no other options.

Back in late 2013, the police just did release a sketch of Long Hair Man alone without the photo or any claim of knowing Welch. Either the police did not know Welch, which brings up the question of why after making the LHM sketch in 1975, they failed to find LHM in 1975 or the police knew Welch and did not release one of the few 1970s photographs of Welch for fear of biasing any witnesses. unquote.

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The statement that you quote me making was posted several years ago. I cannot recall exactly when. But what I said then is just as true today regarding identification of someone based on a composite sketch.

A sketch is NOT legal evidence in any US court, regardless of what some people think. It is only a tool used by law enforcement to try to develop leads or possible suspects. Any identification of a suspect has to be made independantly of such a sketch.

For example, showing the sketch of the Tape Recorder Man did generate many tips and possible leads, even some potential suspects. But police were quick to say from the outset that TRM might or might not have had any thing to do with the disappearance of the Lyon sisters. So no one could be really identified or ruled out based upon the TRM sketch.

The same police department evidently chose to NOT show the sketch of the Long Haired Man to the public - for whatever reason - until 39 years later. And when they did, it was with much reservation about linking it directly to the Lyon sisters.

Then in February of this year, all of a sudden, Lloyd Lee Welch is identified as a person of interest and MCP broadcasts his photo alongside the 1975 LHM sketch. Keep in mind, that this is not the various news media doing this, but rather the police investigators themselves.

It is my opinion and theory that this means the police and FBI feel that they have strong evidence INDEPENDANT of the LHM sketch which links Welch to the Lyon case in some way and they are using the formerly secret LHM sketch to their advantage in making a media splash.

As I mentioned years ago, posting the sketch and photo side - by - side will negate any subsequent identification of Welch by potential eyewitnesses at this late date. Example: If someone comes forward now to say that they saw Welch at the mall that day, Welch's attorney would have the testimony thrown out as tainted because of the side-by-side presentation. If not thrown out, it is solid grounds for an appeal.

My feeling is that MCP probably has discovered in their files that on 1 April 1975 - the very day that the media first announced a $7,000 reward for information - Welch called in a tip and gave to police his parents' Bladensburg/Hyattsville address. It was probably one of many tips and it might not even have been looked into at the time.

Now, all these years later, the tip has been evaluated and might even state that he, Welch, was at the mall that day and had information to give. Evidently, Welch has subsequently stated to a relative that he was at Wheaton Plaza that day.
 
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As I mentioned years ago, posting the sketch and photo side - by - side will negate any subsequent identification of Welch by potential eyewitnesses at this late date. Example: If someone comes forward now to say that they saw Welch at the mall that day, Welch's attorney would have the testimony thrown out as tainted because of the side-by-side presentation. If not thrown out, it is solid grounds for an appeal.
.....
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I would agree that any identification of Welch by anyone who did not know Welch at the time is now inadmissible, if a 39-year-old identification would be reliable to begin with.

If someone now comes forward and says, "Some stranger walked up to us when we were smoking near the "Hipple Path," bummed a smoke, chatted a minute then walked down McCommas Ave (to the woods where the girls were last seen approaching), and from the picture on news, I think it was Welch," the identification of Welch would questionable to say the least.

On the other hand someone who knew Welch at the time and sees Welch as a person of interest in the news might come forward and says something like, "I knew that deadbeat-bum Welch in 1975. Welch, as usual, did not have his own smokes so he bummed a smoke from us. Welch chatted a bit about his usual gripes then walked down McCommas Ave (to the woods where the girls were last seen approaching)." This should be admissible in court.

I would guess that in publishing photographs of Welch, the police made a cost-benefit decision to ruin any chance of a 39-year-old stranger-identification of Welch in the hopes of finding incriminating evidence from someone who knew Welch at the time.

Unrelated to the Lyon sisters case, other living victims of Welch who knew Welch as a carney might come forward now that they are older and know it would be more than their word against his word.
 
I would agree that any identification of Welch by anyone who did not know Welch at the time is now inadmissible, if a 39-year-old identification would be reliable to begin with.

If someone now comes forward and says, "Some stranger walked up to us when we were smoking near the "Hipple Path," bummed a smoke, chatted a minute then walked down McCommas Ave (to the woods where the girls were last seen approaching), and from the picture on news, I think it was Welch," the identification of Welch would questionable to say the least.

On the other hand someone who knew Welch at the time and sees Welch as a person of interest in the news might come forward and says something like, "I knew that deadbeat-bum Welch in 1975. Welch, as usual, did not have his own smokes so he bummed a smoke from us. Welch chatted a bit about his usual gripes then walked down McCommas Ave (to the woods where the girls were last seen approaching)." This should be admissible in court.

I would guess that in publishing photographs of Welch, the police made a cost-benefit decision to ruin any chance of a 39-year-old stranger-identification of Welch in the hopes of finding incriminating evidence from someone who knew Welch at the time.

Unrelated to the Lyon sisters case, other living victims of Welch who knew Welch as a carney might come forward now that they are older and know it would be more than their word against his word.

You make some interesting points, but one has to wonder just what MCP hopes to gain with their tactics.

Besides negating any possible eyewitness testimony from anyone who did NOT know Welch, they are also negating any identification of him by his many possible rape victims in the Kensington/Wheaton area. Remember that the initial "re-release" of the LHM sketch on 22 November 2013 was allegedly to locate such victims.

Focusing on the Lyon case, the only possible leads that might surface now (regarding Welch) would be someone who knows/knew Welch coming forward and providing evidence that links Welch directly to their disappearance.

No other type of information regarding Welch and other crimes or other suspected crimes would make much difference in this case. Even if someone came out with all sorts of information about how evil or crazy he is - it would not be useful in this investigation, unless it positively links Welch to the Lyon sisters and their disappearance.

Who knows? Maybe someone in Kensington actually did know him, and saw him in the area in 1975. But, as you point out, it would have to be someone who knew him personally and remembers him today. And can provide a positive link or lead.
 
Who knows? Maybe someone in Kensington actually did know him, and saw him in the area in 1975. But, as you point out, it would have to be someone who knew him personally and remembers him today. And can provide a positive link or lead.

There is a good chance that Welch might have told some of his other victims something like, "Don't snitch on me or I will have to kill you like two sisters I killed," to intimidate victims.

Unfortunately, anything Welch says, even according to his stepmother, might be a lie. And half a dozen sex offenders may have claimed to their victims to have killed the Lyon sisters to intimidate their victims.

In my opinion, Welch would of had to have said something like, " I killed and buried two sisters who were going to snitch on me. I buried them right by the railroad tracks near their house and the stupid police did not even find the bodies," and the bodies later be found to have any chance of conviction.

A jailhouse snitch is also a possibility, and convictions sometimes occur if the testimony has something else to support it. But any juror would rightly question any jailhouse snitch's motives.

Reading all the old posts on Easter weekend left me with the impression that almost anything could have happened to the sisters.

The anything could range from a covered-up accident to the girls going to the home of a friend and encountering a messed-up college student or Vietnam Vet, like the one who went on a shooting spree in Wheaton a few weeks later. Or some bold abductor could have thrown caution to the wind and abducted them on a busy street.

The best case for the girls would be if they were still alive and kidnapped as an illegal, but otherwise nice adoption. Before the Internet, if the girls were told and convinced that their parents were dead, it would be a couple of decades before they could google themselves, by which time they might be too attached to their new family to report their new "mother" or "father."

I don't question the motives of anyone who reported seeing the girls later, but most have to be mistakes. It would be easy to confuse two sisters fighting in back of a car for two restrained sisters, and the right thing to do would be to report it to the police, but the vast majority, if not all, have to be mistakes.
 
Not related to the case but i did find an audio clip of the father John Lyon from WMAL (first clip of this link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lxlVna1dkk

Did the father talk about the girls on the radio prior to the disappearance?

If he did, the information could have been used to pull off a your-parents-are-in-hospital abduction, in addition to just drawing attention to the kids, not that I am blaming the father in any way.

I am entering the area of conspiracy theories, but from a criminal profit-maximizing point of view, having two girls would be twice as profitable to an illegal-adoption arranger, who crossed the line from just paying off parents (baby selling) to kidnapping.

Off course like most conspiracy theories, say with presidential assassination attempts, it's almost always a nut-job (like Welch) than a special-forces team.
 
...
...I am entering the area of conspiracy theories, but from a criminal profit-maximizing point of view, having two girls would be twice as profitable to an illegal-adoption arranger, who crossed the line from just paying off parents (baby selling) to kidnapping.

Off course like most conspiracy theories, say with presidential assassination attempts, it's almost always a nut-job (like Welch) than a special-forces team.

There actually was at least one attempt to collect ransom from the Lyon family. A caller stated that he wanted $10,000 left in the men's room of the Ann Arundel County Court House in downtown Annapolis. Of course no one came to collect the amount left there, and police concluded that the ransom request was a hoax.

With MCP's recent interest in Welch, I doubt that they are considering that he was part of a ransom scheme or adoption ring.
 
With MCP's recent interest in Welch, I doubt that they are considering that he was part of a ransom scheme or adoption ring.

I agree; I should have made my point clearer. Being more-or-less homeless and carless, Welch barely had the ability to move two dead bodies, much less take care of someone living. Also Welch is/was into sex with children.

Kidnapping, outside of family disputes is now quite rare. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the ransom attempt was/is thought of as a hoax since no proof of having the girls was every offered?

It's unlikely, but the best case for the girls would be if they were kidnapped by a shady "adoption" middleman, told their parents died, and adopted by a nice family in another part of the country who may have paid "expenses" to enable a quick adoption, but not knowing the adoption was a kidnapping.

But I still think it's Welch. I (and everyone) just can't figure out where the bodies are or how Welch moved the bodies, unless the police botched the search.
 
The only doubt about black market adoption I have are the ages of the girls. Most commonly five and under is a market as the child doesn't remember much about their current life/or past...
It certainly is upsetting tho, not really knowing if Welsh was the guy. And I wondered about 2 perps. Kidnapping one is hard enough let alone 2 strong young girls!
 
The only doubt about black market adoption I have are the ages of the girls. Most commonly five and under is a market as the child doesn't remember much about their current life/or past...
It certainly is upsetting tho, not really knowing if Welsh was the guy. And I wondered about 2 perps. Kidnapping one is hard enough let alone 2 strong young girls!

Did he have a buddy to help him?
Might he have been hired/paid to grab the girls, car provided?
 
Did he have a buddy to help him?
Might he have been hired/paid to grab the girls, car provided?

~ That's an interesting thought dotr.... really, when you think of it, 2 girls. How is that done?
 
Sometimes I wonder in cases where more than one child goes missing, if it is because it is easier to con a kid into going somewhere with a stranger, if they are with a friend.
 
The only doubt about black market adoption I have are the ages of the girls. Most commonly five and under is a market as the child doesn't remember much about their current life/or past...
It certainly is upsetting tho, not really knowing if Welsh was the guy. And I wondered about 2 perps. Kidnapping one is hard enough let alone 2 strong young girls!

I am strongly leaning to Welch because 1) his tastes in girls, 2) his anger (still not known to public how bad his anger problem is/was), 3) he was in the area, and 4) there are more idiot criminals than smart criminals.

But in 1975 prior to the Internet and high-caution, it would have been very easy to pull off a "your parents are in the hospital/dead" scam on young children. The "your parents are in the hospital" scam would both get the children into the car and later convince them to be adopted. Not that I would do it, but if I did I would drive the girls to the hospital, have them sit in the waiting room for a few minutes, talk to a doctor or nurse about some other patient, then drive off with the kids to have a "serious" talk.

The only hard part would be "selling" the kids, and only a very few adoption "agents" (baby buyers/sellers) who worked with lawyers who looked the other way (thinking it was at most a payoff to the mother) would be in a position to do it. Only a fraction if any of these adoption "agents" would be psychopathic enough and consider the reward worth the risk to do it. I am not an expert in the field, but I have only seen baby stealing for adoption in the news today in third-world countries, and in very few cases with young children.
 
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