OK OK - Judith Elwell, 5, Oklahoma City, 6 July 1967

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I agree with the detective that these two cases are connected. I hope he's able to find solid evidence.
 
Yes the files were either accidentally tossed out or damaged and misplaced after the area where they were stored flooded. Yes all the evidence they had is gone.
 
Cubby said:
The story from this link was posted earlier, but nothing was mentioned regarding the comments.
Link again:
http://blog.newsok.com/coldcaseokc/2007/08/05/judith-elwells-brother-speaks-out/

from the comments section:
Someone who claims to be Brenda Whites cousin posted this:



Interestingly I don't see that Judiths brother replied online to any of the possibly viable info posted in the comments section. Perhaps he didn't know this was online?

I'm also curious if Judith has DNA anywhere. I don't see her listed at Namus and can't find any online info whether there is DNA or not for her to compare to any unidentifieds.

A shame LE seemed to lose, misplace or ? the files for both Judith Elwell and Brenda Whites case.
If the files are gone, I wonder if that means any evidence collected is gone too. :(
Click to expand...

The link doesn't work any more
 
Because I feel it's only right to up date the MP case when making a suggestion on a UP thread, I am adding a recent post I made on this thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Socks-quot-WhtFem-33UFTX-20-27-Oct-79/page16
Here is what I wrote:
"I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that maybe the name of Joanie or Judy that Lucas gave the police was correct. I think OS may possibly be Judith Elwell who went missing in July of 1967 in Oklahoma City, OK. It's an hour away from Henryetta, OK, where one of the matchbooks was from. I understand that she was 5 at the time she went missing, however, that doesn't necessarily mean she was killed when she disappeared. It also shouldn't exclude her from a potential match due to the twelve year difference between Judith's disappearance and OS discovery. I wish the pm photos were clearer."

I haven't submitted the possible match yet, because I wanted to get everyone's take on it first. I'm new at this. I also put up a photo comparison of Judith and the pm photo.
 
NamUs lists Judith's DNA as being available. Do we know what kind it is? How can we find out? I ask because Judith's mother passed away 6 years after she disappeared and DNA sampling was not available then. Her brother is stated as being her only living relative, so I am assuming two things: that DNA sample came from him, which would not contain mtDNA because he is male, at least that is my understanding, anyway, and 2: that no maternal female relative was found to provide the mtDNA. If my assumptions are wrong, I'd like to know.
Not being a DNA expert, what kind of sample could her brother provide besides Y-STR? Can they obtain Y-STR for comparison from a female Jane Doe to compare to his?
I'm trying to figure out how they can rule someone out stating there is no DNA association when the sample types may not match.
I have a ton to learn here, so if anyone can shed some light, I would be very thankful.
 
Alleykins said:
NamUs lists Judith's DNA as being available. Do we know what kind it is? How can we find out? I ask because Judith's mother passed away 6 years after she disappeared and DNA sampling was not available then. Her brother is stated as being her only living relative, so I am assuming two things: that DNA sample came from him, which would not contain mtDNA because he is male, at least that is my understanding, anyway, and 2: that no maternal female relative was found to provide the mtDNA. If my assumptions are wrong, I'd like to know.
Not being a DNA expert, what kind of sample could her brother provide besides Y-STR? Can they obtain Y-STR for comparison from a female Jane Doe to compare to his?
I'm trying to figure out how they can rule someone out stating there is no DNA association when the sample types may not match.
I have a ton to learn here, so if anyone can shed some light, I would be very thankful.
Click to expand...

I do not touch DNA topics. Best suggestion would be to email NamUs to ask if there is mtDNA
 
Thank you, Roselvr. I'm clueless when it comes to DNA, so I checked around. I found out that CODIS has guidelines that have to be met before they will accept DNA samples, I believe I read one of them has to be mtDNA. The reply I got from NamUs when I submitted the match was that they were both in CODIS with no associations, but it seemed like a canned response to me, not sure, though, because I'm new at this. I also read that the best way to rule out a match with DNA is to have as many samples from both paternal and maternal relatives to build a more complete profile. I read someplace that Judith's brother was her only living relative, so it would seem to me that the sample is somewhat limited. I was under the impression that mtDNA can only come from a female, but I was wrong. A male sibling with the same mother as the MP has the same mtDNA as a sister, he just doesn't pass it off to his offspring. Judith's brother's mtDNA would work, his nucDNA could be 50% or less of a match.
I've noticed that some folks seem to know what type of DNA is available for whom. Where is that information coming from? Am I missing it? I've seen a few notes about what kind of DNA is available on some cases on the doenetwork site, but more often than not, I'm not seeing anything but "DNA available."
 
Alleykins said:
Thank you, Roselvr. I'm clueless when it comes to DNA, so I checked around. I found out that CODIS has guidelines that have to be met before they will accept DNA samples, I believe I read one of them has to be mtDNA. The reply I got from NamUs when I submitted the match was that they were both in CODIS with no associations, but it seemed like a canned response to me, not sure, though, because I'm new at this. I also read that the best way to rule out a match with DNA is to have as many samples from both paternal and maternal relatives to build a more complete profile. I read someplace that Judith's brother was her only living relative, so it would seem to me that the sample is somewhat limited. I was under the impression that mtDNA can only come from a female, but I was wrong. A male sibling with the same mother as the MP has the same mtDNA as a sister, he just doesn't pass it off to his offspring. Judith's brother's mtDNA would work, his nucDNA could be 50% or less of a match.
I've noticed that some folks seem to know what type of DNA is available for whom. Where is that information coming from? Am I missing it? I've seen a few notes about what kind of DNA is available on some cases on the doenetwork site, but more often than not, I'm not seeing anything but "DNA available."
Click to expand...

NamUs used to show the DNA history, type and who holds it. They hid it a few years ago saying it was part of a medical record HIPAA.

Some families of missing have given hair and baby teeth to get a DNA sample. Eric Franks mom gave his teeth, good thing too because he was adopted
 
I was thinking of baby teeth as a possible source, too. Good to know that they can extract it from those.

NamUs used to show the DNA history, type and who holds it. They hid it a few years ago saying it was part of a medical record HIPAA
Click to expand...
I suspected something like that when I watched the video on NamUs and they showed dental records, and then I couldn't find them. Later,someone mentioned that they stopped having them available to the general public.
 
Alleykins said:
I was thinking of baby teeth as a possible source, too. Good to know that they can extract it from those.


I suspected something like that when I watched the video on NamUs and they showed dental records, and then I couldn't find them. Later,someone mentioned that they stopped having them available to the general public.
Click to expand...

Yeah, dental & DNA both go under HIPAA
 
Does anyone know Judith Ann's date of birth? I'm sure she was born in 1962, but what is the exact day?
 
Alleykins said:
NamUs lists Judith's DNA as being available. Do we know what kind it is? How can we find out? I ask because Judith's mother passed away 6 years after she disappeared and DNA sampling was not available then. Her brother is stated as being her only living relative, so I am assuming two things: that DNA sample came from him, which would not contain mtDNA because he is male, at least that is my understanding, anyway, and 2: that no maternal female relative was found to provide the mtDNA. If my assumptions are wrong, I'd like to know.
Not being a DNA expert, what kind of sample could her brother provide besides Y-STR? Can they obtain Y-STR for comparison from a female Jane Doe to compare to his?
I'm trying to figure out how they can rule someone out stating there is no DNA association when the sample types may not match.
I have a ton to learn here, so if anyone can shed some light, I would be very thankful.
Click to expand...

I’d love to know if you ever figured out the DNA question, as I share your “out on a limb” potential match theory with the body found in Texas. I’m no professional but I see a striking similarity between them.

It might be a long-shot that she lived into adulthood and the other child abducted by who we think also abducted Judith ended up dead soon after. But hey, maybe she cooperated and the other child fought back and was killed.
 
MandiH82 said:
I’d love to know if you ever figured out the DNA question, as I share your “out on a limb” potential match theory with the body found in Texas. I’m no professional but I see a striking similarity between them.

It might be a long-shot that she lived into adulthood and the other child abducted by who we think also abducted Judith ended up dead soon after. But hey, maybe she cooperated and the other child fought back and was killed.
Click to expand...

Investigators are in the process of putting the Jane Doe (Orange Socks) through the DNA Doe Project, so hopefully we'll have answers soon.
 
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