Do you think a Stungun was used?

[Jayelles]

If it could be proved that a stungun HAD been used, then it would make it very unlikely that the Ramseys were involved in Jonbenet's murder.

However, it has not been proved that a stungun was used. According to the leading expert on stunguns (Robert Stratbucker), the marks do not resemble stungun marks. He did extensive tests on humans and his expertise goes back for a few decades.

Stratbucker was deposed in Wolf vs Ramsey case, but Lin wood's questioning focused more on his professional ties to Taser Inc who hired him because of his expertise in stunguns.

The Ramsey expert, Michael Doberson proved himself NOT to be such an expert when it was revealed that in fact, he FAILED to spot stungun marks in a murder case where a stungun had in fact been used. He also famously said that you "cannot tell" from a photograph.

I did my own tests using a computer graphics program, a steel ruler and the best quality images I could find of Doberson's pig experiment and Jonbenet's autopsy photos. I scaled them all to real size then printed them out on acetate and overlaid them. The pig marks matched the stungun prongs exactly but jonBenet's marks did not - they were much smaller and closer together. I documented my methodology and urged others to replicate it so that they could dispute or corroborate my findings. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has taken me up on that although many criticised my experiment and one person stated that it had "many flaws in logic". That person refused to say what these flaws were - despite being asked 6 times by me.

I also take issue with the apparent lack of a second mark on Jonbenet's face. Stunguns need to make two contact points to work. Ramsey supporters say the second prong landed on the duct tape and that is why there is only one mark. I asked a physician about this and he said that it is possible that duct tape would act as insulation and that the stungun would not work if one prong landed on duct tape. He conceded that he'd need to know more about the duct tape and the stungun before he could say with absolutely certainty.

RST also say that there is a little spot of glue on Jonbenet's face and this was where the second prong of the stungun laned - melting the glue on the sticky side of the duct tape. However, the issue I take with this (apart from the possibility that teh duct tape would act as insulation) is that it would be quite compelling if this were the case. So why didn't Lou Smit shout it from the rooftops in defence of his stungun theory? Tests to that glue - even tests to the duct tape would reveal whether heat had been applied to it.

So here we are - none the wiser. It's almost certainly too late to exhume and perform tests on her tissues.

So are you convinced by the stungun theory or not?

[Linda7NJ]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

If it could be proved that a stun gun HAD been used, then it would make it very unlikely that the Ramseys were involved in Jonbenet's murder.

However, it has not been proved that a stun gun was used. According to the leading expert on stun guns (Robert Stratbucker), the marks do not resemble stungun marks. He did extensive tests on humans and his expertise goes back for a few decades.

Stratbucker was deposed in Wolf vs Ramsey case, but Lin wood's questioning focused more on his professional ties to Taser Inc who hired him because of his expertise in stunguns.

The Ramsey expert, Michael Doberson proved himself NOT to be such an expert when it was revealed that in fact, he FAILED to spot stun gun marks in a murder case where a stungun had in fact been used. He also famously said that you "cannot tell" from a photograph.

I did my own tests using a computer graphics program, a steel ruler and the best quality images I could find of Doberson's pig experiment and Jonbenet's autopsy photos. I scaled them all to real size then printed them out on acetate and overlaid them. The pig marks matched the stun gun prongs exactly but jonBenet's marks did not - they were much smaller and closer together. I documented my methodology and urged others to replicate it so that they could dispute or corroborate my findings. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has taken me up on that although many criticised my experiment and one person stated that it had "many flaws in logic". That person refused to say what these flaws were - despite being asked 6 times by me.

I also take issue with the apparent lack of a second mark on Jonbenet's face. Stunguns need to make two contact points to work. Ramsey supporters say the second prong landed on the duct tape and that is why there is only one mark. I asked a physician about this and he said that it is possible that duct tape would act as insulation and that the stun gun would not work if one prong landed on duct tape. He conceded that he'd need to know more about the duct tape and the stun gun before he could say with absolutely certainty.

RST also say that there is a little spot of glue on Jonbenet's face and this was where the second prong of the stun gun laned - melting the glue on the sticky side of the duct tape. However, the issue I take with this (apart from the possibility that teh duct tape would act as insulation) is that it would be quite compelling if this were the case. So why didn't Lou Smit shout it from the rooftops in defence of his stun gun theory? Tests to that glue - even tests to the duct tape would reveal whether heat had been applied to it.

So here we are - none the wiser. It's almost certainly too late to exhume and perform tests on her tissues.

So are you convinced by the stun gun theory or not?

I have never been convinced of the:

stun gun theory

the enhanced 911 call

garrote as a AE device

chronic sexual abuse

or any intruder theory.

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not convinced about the stun gun either way.

[tipper]

I thought this was an interesting case where both Doberson and Stratbucker testfied for the prosecution. The body was cremated so their testimony was based on photographs.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...dex.php/t-5544

Source: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/
ny-lipelo1125,0,2828577.story?coll=ny-topstories-headlines



Riverhead
Prosecution rests in Pelosi case

BY ROBIN TOPPING
STAFF WRITER

November 24, 2004, 9:33 PM EST

Theodore Ammon was repeatedly zapped with a stun gun and the killer may have held him from behind in a choke hold while applying the gun directly to his neck, a Colorado coroner suggested in testimony Wednesday.

That testimony from Michael J. Dobersen, the medical examiner for Arapahoe County, provides foundation for the prosecution's theory that Daniel Pelosi used a stun gun before killing Ammon in October 2001 in the master bedroom of the millionaire's East Hampton home.

Dobersen said the stun gun's use and the choke hold scenario was supported by a line of small red marks on Ammon's left lower back, a larger Y-shaped wound on the right side of Ammon's neck and severe fractures to Ammon's larynx.

Pelosi bought a stun gun in March 2001 and turned one over this year to police. Assistant District Attorney Janet Albertson, who finished presenting her case Wednesday six weeks after testimony began, said Pelosi used such a weapon to incapacitate the larger Ammon before beating him to death.

Dobersen's testimony backed up prosecution witness Robert Stratbucker, who testified Tuesday. Both men have presented themselves as experts on the effects of stun guns. But Pelosi's defense attorney, Gerald Shargel of Manhattan, sharply attacked Stratbucker's credibility, especially in light of Stratbucker's position as medical director of a company that manufactures stun guns.

Dobersen, a forensic pathologist who has performed stun-gun experiments on animals with Stratbucker, said he has worked on a half-dozen cases involving the weapons. He said the gun leaves characteristic red points from the gun's twin electrodes and bigger wounds from random arcs of electricity when applied intensely to larger areas.

Although Stratbucker testified that the Y-shaped wound on Ammon's neck was from the stun gun being held there for several minutes, Dobersen said it was caused by the stun gun moving over the area just above the skin.

In his cross-examination, Shargel tried to imply that Dobersen was influenced by Stratbucker's conclusions and by prosecutors saying a stun gun was suspected in the case.

But Dobersen, who has testified in hundreds of murder cases and remained unruffled on the stand, insisted that no matter what anyone told him, "Stun gun would be number one on my list of possibilities."

Still, he acknowledged that he had differed with Stratbucker on whether a stun gun was used in the case of JonBenet Ramsey, a 6-year-old girl whose 1996 murder in Boulder, Colo., remains unsolved. In that case, Stratbucker said a stun gun was not used, but Dobersen said, "I felt very strongly that these were stun gun wounds."

Like Stratbucker, Dobersen came to his conclusions on the Pelosi case after reviewing photos of the body and crime scene. He was the last witness before the prosecution rested, with the defense case to begin Wednesday before State Supreme Court Justice Robert W. Doyle in Riverhead.

[…]

[BlueCrab]

I am convinced that a stun gun had been used on JonBenet (I don't like the use of "100%" in the poll question but, based on the evidence, that designation comes closest to what I think).

There were three areas on JonBenet's body that were likely injuries from stun gun hits. These were on the right side of the face; on the lower-left back; and on the lower left leg near the ankle. The marks on the back were the clearest to diagnose.

The size and shape and distance apart of the twin rectangular marks, especially on JonBenet's back, clearly matched the metaL prongs of a Taser brand stun gun.

I'm not a member of the RST but I'm convinced that JonBenet had been tased. Moreover, I'm convinced that a Ramsey family member was involved in the tasing and the stun gun disappeared with the rest of the missing physical evidence from the crime scene (the tape, the cord, etc.).

Here's how the coroner described the little rectangular marks in his autopsy report:

"Located on the right side of the chin is a three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch area of superficial abrasion."

"On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch."

"On the posterior aspect of the lower left leg, almost in the midline, approiximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eighth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively".

Meyer, after reviewing additional evidence, later agreed that the marks are consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

[tipper]

I agree about the 100%. If it had said "more likely than not" I would have voted for the stun gun being used.

[UKGuy]

Well JonBenet has abrasions on her body and facial area, there is a ligature around her neck indicating she was asphyxiated, also she suffered vaginal trauma, most likely via the paintbrush handle, or digitally.

So I can match this forensic evidence to the possibility of the abrasions being the result of a stun-gun, the ligature to EA activities, and the vaginal trauma reflecting a sexually motivated assault.

Currently I know of no stun-gun being found in the Ramsey household, or them ever purchasing one, or even, just as importantly, any of their associates owning one, say for self-defence.

I am not aware of any evidence of any prior EA activity with JonBenet. I'm certain her doctor or the school nurse would have picked up on any unusual neck weals or abrasions appearing, and from her published pictures, I have not noticed any marks on her neck etc.

The vaginal trauma she suffered prior to or as she was becoming deceased, may not be sexually motivated. Its purpose may be either to obsfucate prior sexual abuse or fabricate the impression she was the victim of a sadistic pedophile.

So whilst I can interpret the forensic evidence as being consistent with the use of a stun-gun. The same forensic evidence is open to many other interpretations and explanations.

So assuming I've read all the facts, and reviewed the available forensic evidence, I find it does not corroborate or substantiate that a stun-gun was used.



.

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by UKGuy

So whilst I can interpret the forensic evidence as being consistent with the use of a stun-gun. The same forensic evidence is open to many other interpretations and explanations.

UKGuy,

How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

BlueCrab

[IrishMist]

I just wanted to thank Jayelles for adding an "undecided" option for us fence sitters...

[capps]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

UKGuy,

How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

BlueCrab

I agree.
It's the only one logical that I've heard so far.Do I think 100% a stun gun was used? No.
Do I think most likely? Yes.

If anyone can give a more reasonable explanation for these consistent marks ... bring it on,and we can discuss it.

But so far IMO,a stun gun fits.

[loyalalways]

I saw the pictures of the marks on her neck. I don't know what else could have caused those marks other than a stun gun. Also, if the person didn't want to alert any other family members of his presence he would have to use something to keep JonBenet quiet, IMO.

I don't think the parents had anything to do with her death. IMO, I think that it was possibly someone that JonBenet knew. However, I also wonder if there was a pedophile/killer in the area, because within 9 months of JonBenet's murder, another girl that went to the same dance school as JonBenet was attacked in her own room by a stranger. The police are saying that it couldn't be the person that killed JonBenet because this other girl wasn't murdered. The reason she wasn't murdered is because her mother heard something and interrupted the person before he could do anything harmful. If she hadn't heard anything, I really think that Boulder would have had another child murdered.

The Boulder police are the reason this case hasn't been solved. They are determined to pin it on the parents and won't look at anything else. That's the impression I've been getting from reading different articles on this case.

Poor little JonBenet. She went through more in her six years of life than most people go through in their whole life. When I saw the autopsy pictures I couldn't believe that a human being could do that to an innocent little child. The thought of what she went through that night makes me cry. Whoever did this should be put in the yard at the prison and let all the other murderers have a field day with him.

[Jayelles]

I put the 100% in intentionally. I wanted to see who was totally convinced by the evidence as it stands.

The results will be more interesting that way.

If you aren't sure about the 100% thing, think of it this way - if you had to incriminate someone on the basis of those marks being made by a stungun - would you feel positive enough to incriminate?

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by loyalalways

I saw the pictures of the marks on her neck. I don't know what else could have caused those marks other than a stun gun. Also, if the person didn't want to alert any other family members of his presence he would have to use something to keep JonBenet quiet, IMO.

I don't think the parents had anything to do with her death. IMO, I think that it was possibly someone that JonBenet knew. However, I also wonder if there was a pedophile/killer in the area, because within 9 months of JonBenet's murder, another girl that went to the same dance school as JonBenet was attacked in her own room by a stranger. The police are saying that it couldn't be the person that killed JonBenet because this other girl wasn't murdered. The reason she wasn't murdered is because her mother heard something and interrupted the person before he could do anything harmful. If she hadn't heard anything, I really think that Boulder would have had another child murdered.

The Boulder police are the reason this case hasn't been solved. They are determined to pin it on the parents and won't look at anything else. That's the impression I've been getting from reading different articles on this case.

Poor little JonBenet. She went through more in her six years of life than most people go through in their whole life. When I saw the autopsy pictures I couldn't believe that a human being could do that to an innocent little child. The thought of what she went through that night makes me cry. Whoever did this should be put in the yard at the prison and let all the other murderers have a field day with him.

Welcome loyalalways! Could I ask a wee favour? I have a problem with my eyes and I can't read text in lighter colours. I either have to jumpt through some hoops to adjust my Internet browser Accessibility settings to read them - or scroll by them.

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

UKGuy,

How many credible interpretations and explanations are there, other than a stun gun, for the presence of matching twin rectangular injuries found in three different locations on JonBenet that are the exact same size, shape and distance apart as the twin metal probes on a Taser brand stun gun?

IMO there are none. A stun gun was likely used on JonBenet.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Sorry, but absence of evidence does not demonstrate absence of guilt, similarly absence of an alternative to a stun-gun interpretation does not demonstrate that none exists.

And as I stated above, with no corroborating or externally substantive evidence to conclusively demonstrate that a stun-gun was applied, its not an interpretation that I would feel confident promoting.

I'm not contradicting you, I'm just suggesting I would not feel comfortable convicting someone on a likely hunch!

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by UKGuy

I'm not contradicting you, I'm just suggesting I would not feel comfortable convicting someone on a likely hunch!

UKGuy,

The stun gun injuries on JonBenet are not hunches. They are evidence. The injuries have been examined, measured, and photographed. Most experts agree they are stun gun injuries. The photos are public information for all to see and comment upon for themselves.

If you have a credible theory the injuries are something other than stun gun injuries then please advance the theory and we'll discuss it. In the meantime we should consider the injuries to be what the coroner, the experts, the measurements, etc., seem to clearly tell us they are -- stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

UKGuy,

The stun gun injuries on JonBenet are not hunches. They are evidence. The injuries have been examined, measured, and photographed. Most experts agree they are stun gun injuries. The photos are public information for all to see and comment upon for themselves.

If you have a credible theory the injuries are something other than stun gun injuries then please advance the theory and we'll discuss it. In the meantime we should consider the injuries to be what the coroner, the experts, the measurements, etc., seem to clearly tell us they are -- stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

No Bluecrab the measurements do not match - that is why there is an abundance of explanations/excuses as to why they don't - she moved and her skin stretched being a classic. Even Lou Smit has backed off from saying that she was stungunned by Taser - he now says it is the "closest" match. Another excuse given as to why the marks do not match is that the perps stungun was "modified".

Nor do most experts agree that the marks were made by a stungun. The leading expert on stungun injuries says no (Robert Stratbucker). He has done the most extensive research on stunguns and his work included photographs of the stungun marks immediately after the injury, ten minutes later, one hour later and 24 hours later in the case of one subject for whom the marks took longer to disappear. This man was of a different race to other subjects and this was a matter of interest to Stratbucker. For most of the guinea pigs in Stratbucker's research, the marks completely disappeared within one hour.

It doesn't wear with me that Stratbucker is lying because of his associations with taser. He makes most of his income out of being an expert on stunguns - not being an associate of Taser. IMO, he would not compormise his professional integrity by telling porky-pies.

[tipper]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

[...]
It doesn't wear with me that Stratbucker is lying because of his associations with taser. He makes most of his income out of being an expert on stunguns - not being an associate of Taser. IMO, he would not compormise his professional integrity by telling porky-pies.

I don't think he would lie for Taser either. But I was re-reading his deposition this morning and wondered if perhaps instead of Darnay choosing to withdraw him, he withdrew himself after hearing there were better? more complete? photographs that he hadn't seen. I know Darnay says he withdrew him but could that be a professional courtesy to not damage the case?

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by tipper

I don't think he would lie for Taser either. But I was re-reading his deposition this morning and wondered if perhaps instead of Darnay choosing to withdraw him, he withdrew himself after hearing there were better? more complete? photographs that he hadn't seen. I know Darnay says he withdrew him but could that be a professional courtesy to not damage the case?

I think he may have withdrawn himself because of the way the line of questioning was going. NOT because he had something to hide but because Lin Wood was manipulating the record by his selective line of questioning and his MO of denying the witness the opportunity to elaborate. Darnay was completely ineffective at countering that and I think Dr Stratbucker washed his hands of it.

If this had interview had taken place in a court of Law, Lin would not get away with his style of questioning and a decent defence lawyer would ensure that the witness was given the opportunity to finish his testimony to his own satisfaction.

Darnay Hoffman is no match for Lin Wood. Darnay comes across as a complete wimp and toady in comparison. Having said that, I think Lin Wood is an agressive and dishonest bully who seeks to distort the facts to his client's advantage.

[sissi]

In the "body" section of wideawake, it was mentioned to use pliers to torture barbie. Could the marks have been made by pliers?
don't go here if you are under 18..it's very sick...however remember that he put dolls in the nearby restaurant (according to shapiro) and lived within three blocks of Jonbenet...

http://web.archive.org/web/199802150....org/Body.html

Then click the barbie UF..scroll down to the third "blank box" click..

Then.. ya may want to read what the fbi profilers have to say about sexual sadists...

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

No Bluecrab the measurements do not match -

Jayelles,

The measurements match perfectly. Please google the autopsy photos and measure for yourself.

It measures 3.6 cm centerline to centerline between the twin rectangular marks on JonBenet.

It measures 3.6 cm centerline to centerline between the twin rectangular electrodes on the Taser brand stun gun.

In regard to the slight misalignment of the marks on JonBenet, please remember that the skin on the test pig was thick and rigid; while the skin on JonBenet was thin and pliable. Jam a stun gun into the respective skins and the resulting "signatures" will look slightly different in regard to alignment. Using a model stun gun with metal electrodes the same size as a Taser, in an experiment several years ago I proved how easy it is to cause misalignment of stun gun marks on my own arm. I shared the results of the experiment here on WS.

IMO the evidence of a stun gun having been used on JonBenet is overwhelming.

BlueCrab

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

Jayelles,

The measurements match perfectly. Please google the autopsy photos and measure for yourself.

It measures 3.6 cm centerline to centerline between the twin rectangular marks on JonBenet.

It measures 3.6 cm centerline to centerline between the twin rectangular electrodes on the Taser brand stun gun.

In regard to the slight misalignment of the marks on JonBenet, please remember that the skin on the test pig was thick and rigid; while the skin on JonBenet was thin and pliable. Jam a stun gun into the respective skins and the resulting "signatures" will look slightly different in regard to alignment. Using a model stun gun with metal electrodes the same size as a Taser, in an experiment several years ago I proved how easy it is to cause misalignment of stun gun marks on my own arm. I shared the results of the experiment here on WS.

IMO the evidence of a stun gun having been used on JonBenet is overwhelming.

BlueCrab

Bluecrab, we have had this discussion several times. I HAVE checked the measurements myself - with numerous controls in place.

I bought a steel Stanley ruler - which has the British Weights and Measures Standards stampt - meaning that it is accurate. I then enlarged the photos of the pigmarks and the marks on JonBenet until the autopsy rulers matched the steel ruler on both axes on a printout.

Then I printed the images out on OHP acetate and overlaid them.

They do NOT match. The marks on Jonbenet are smaller and closer together than the marks on the pig.

The pig marks match the distance between the stungun prongs.
The marks on Jonbenet do not.

Anyone still wishing to pursue the Taser theory must also explain the differences between the marks on Jonbenet and the pig.

This was a replication of Cutter's research - mine took it further though in that I did not rely on measuring between the marks. I focused on getting the rulers to match and then overlaying the images of the marks.

Incidentally, I was approached and asked for a copy of my experiment by someone we've all heard of in connection with the investigation.

Also - the marks don't even look alike. The pig marks look like little burns and the marks on jonbenet are darker and more bruise like (much more like the marks on Gerald Boggs after he'd been dead for 6 months). I conceded that we didn't really know what would hapen to stungun marks if the victim died shortly afterwards and jameson said that Doberson's pig was slaughtered afterwards. She hinted that there were other photographs of the pig experiment which look much more like the marks on Jonbenet (scratching my head ..... SO WHY NOT PUBLISH THOSE?)

Also - the image which jameson has published on her website comparing the two sets of marks is doctored and it looks as though the marks ARE identical in size and distance. Note however that the image of Jonbenet's marks has the rulers cropped out of it. I also did an experiment showing that jameson's graphic of Jonbenet was enlarged for the comparison with the pig marks.

[SisterSocks]

Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter

I'm not convinced about the stun gun either way.

Ditto

[capps]

I believe if the poll went this way:

What do you think the consistent marks on JonBenet are:

1) Marks from Patsy's dinner ring
2) Marks from JonBenet's toy weaving loom
3) Marks from a stun gun

Chances are IMO,that most would choose #3.It seems most logical than the other two.

A question to posters that believe it is not a stun gun ... what do you suppose the marks on JonBenet are?

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

This was a replication of Cutter's research - mine took it further though in that I did not rely on measuring between the marks. I focused on getting the rulers to match and then overlaying the images of the marks.

Jayelles,

I too used the photos from Cutter's own website and came up with entirely different measurements than he did. Measured centerline to centerline the twin marks on JonBenet and the twin prongs on a Taser both measured 3.6 cm. Cutter did not measure from the respective centerlines and thus miscalculated significantly.

BlueCrab

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

Jayelles,

I too used the photos from Cutter's own website and came up with entirely different measurements than he did. Measured centerline to centerline the twin marks on JonBenet and the twin prongs on a Taser both measured 3.6 cm. Cutter did not measure from the respective centerlines and thus miscalculated significantly.

BlueCrab

And you are strengthening my point. My method does not rely on finding a particular point on the marks. There is too much scope for discrepancy using this method.

The marks fade towards the outside and different computer systems with different resolutions and colour depth settings would show them differently. If you use little lines taken from any point on the marks, there is a very good chance you will measure them differently.

My method of using overlays is much more reliable. I used lines for control purposes on the rulers only.

I concentrated on getting the rulers to exactly the same scale. My printouts of the rulers matched the Stanley ruler to a fraction of a millimetre. The distance between the marks was almost half a centimetre. Skin doesn't stretch that much unless you have a rare medical condition.

I didn't agree with Cutter's exact findings - his measurements and mine were out by 1 millimetre. I found the marks to be out by 1 millimetre more than him.