RDI and IDI

[amordei]

To this point, I have traveled the RDI route with stops at PDI, BDI and JDI, but the appeal of IDI has overtaken me. But with a twist.

I believe that JAR and a couple of college buddies planned this kidnapping. JAR wrote the note before leaving Boulder to make his alibi (pretty convenient for a college kid to keep a movie ticket stub). The two friends screwed up the plan with some sort of accident.

My theory accounts for all of the available evidence except the sexual stuff (frankly, I am not entirely convinced that discrete activity occurred that night). The secret Santa, the pineapple, the ridiculously sophmoric ransom note, the lawyering up of the Ramsey side of the family, Boatman, etc.

So intruders did it and Ramsey did it. Have I found a way to bridge the divide?

[amordei]

I do think that JonBenet was otherwise molested, just not by the college buddies, though I could be persuaded otherwise.

[narlacat]

Hi amodei

I have travelled the same route as you, with most of the same stops!

From reading on this forum, I think it was indeed possible for JAR to have been in Boulder that night.
Does a movie stub ticket prove that person actually watched the movie?
I don't think so.
The auto bank pic apparently only shows someone wearing a baseball cap, well that is my recollection anyway...
Could it have been someone besides JAR?
I don't know if it's normal to lawyer up like JR did but I've always wondered what his ex wife could tell us.

<<I do think that JonBenet was otherwise molested>>

By JAR?

[ellen13]

Originally Posted by narlacat

Hi amodei

I have travelled the same route as you, with most of the same stops!

From reading on this forum, I think it was indeed possible for JAR to have been in Boulder that night.
Does a movie stub ticket prove that person actually watched the movie?
I don't think so.
The auto bank pic apparently only shows someone wearing a baseball cap, well that is my recollection anyway...
Could it have been someone besides JAR?
I don't know if it's normal to lawyer up like JR did but I've always wondered what his ex wife could tell us.

<<I do think that JonBenet was otherwise molested>>

By JAR?

Good post Narla!! I kind of had put jar out of the loop until you brought it up.
Thanks! Hope all is well!
Ellen

[Camper]

Originally Posted by narlacat

Hi amodei

I have travelled the same route as you, with most of the same stops!

From reading on this forum, I think it was indeed possible for JAR to have been in Boulder that night.
Does a movie stub ticket prove that person actually watched the movie?
I don't think so.
The auto bank pic apparently only shows someone wearing a baseball cap, well that is my recollection anyway...
Could it have been someone besides JAR?
I don't know if it's normal to lawyer up like JR did but I've always wondered what his ex wife could tell us.

<<I do think that JonBenet was otherwise molested>>

By JAR?

-------->>>The R dictionary was open to the page that had 'incest' on it. This I think was used as a teaching aid at the party on the 23rd, which I think was why no Ramsey answered the door to the police who responded for the 911 call. Mrs. Stine was not a close friend until after the murder according to the R's.

Although I suppose the dictionary could have been used at a later time on the 23rd AFTER the guests had gone home.

I have been all over the map taking tours for well over eight years here, looking at the possibilities up close and personal, on WHO did IT.


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[narlacat]

Yep.
You have been in for the long haul and the hard yards Camper.
Thanks for hanging in and helping contribute to the forum's strength.

[narlacat]

Originally Posted by ellen13

Good post Narla!! I kind of had put jar out of the loop until you brought it up.
Thanks! Hope all is well!
Ellen

Hi Ellen
It actually wasnt me that brought JAR up lol, but I have always been sus on him.
His forgiveness statement, if true, and I think it was, is just not a normal thing to say in a situation like that.
Noone is that bloody saintly lol.

[Camper]

Originally Posted by narlacat

Yep.
You have been in for the long haul and the hard yards Camper.
Thanks for hanging in and helping contribute to the forum's strength.

------------------>>>Thank you narlacat. I just wish someone in the BPD would let me have all of the known facts that they are privy to.

I would like a list of everything that they have done, who did what specific investigating on every issue.

Steve Thomas was still around in Feb of 1997, when the boatman issue came up. I would like to know everything that bothered him.

I would like to know what Trujillo did with all the hints that I emailed to Becker, and were they even given to Trujillo. I never inserted my self into the case by phone or in person. The R's should have done THAT.

Since the age of 14 I have had an interest in crime that totals up to 59 years, and read pounds and pounds of books on crime. True Detective magazine, I don't think that is even published anymore. I read about real crime, with real pictures of crime scenes and information on the cases. This magazine I would pick up when I was 15 years old. Memory is failing but I think it came out EVERY week. I did pick up lots of comic books too. Dick Tracy, hee hee. Dick coulda whipped this case, and Tess Trueheart his forever girlfriend. I shoulda been worrying about boys and other things girlie.

Actually IF the BPD would give me the case files, I have a list of WS'ers that I would invite over to my house, er to the Public Library, and we would go through everything with a fine toothed comb. MJenn would be on that list for certain. AT one time she was afraid of me, hee hee. Long story. WE shared a lot of time working on this case together, In the night on Yahoo chat. I printed out a lot of those chats, they are buried in my garage somewhere after two moves, and my husband that passed away. She and I knew each others names, and I actually called her on the phone ONCE and did not reach her left a message. She expressed fear of ME to someone cannot even remember who it was now. I have to add that the fear was that I had ACTUALLY called her and left a message. Today on WS, friendships are formed people exhange names commonly and call each other. BUT this was 9 years ago, things were different then about 'people' who were on the internet, BOO. They are still among us, the bad people that is.

There is more that we discussed and that MJenn told me she had done as actual physical footwork on the case. I shall keep that private, since it was just between the two of us in Yahoo chat.

Also to our new poster Clueless, glad to hear you reaffirm my nutrional information, most everyone on WS has me classed as a fruitcake on health issues.

I have the thought that the poop, might have been rather loose ish, don't know. As I recall it covered quite a messy area, I don't have complete recall on it, but I do remember I was shocked about the enormity that seemed to be related about the actual mess problem. Hard topic to discuss or even think about. Yuck comes to mind.


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[narlacat]

<<Today on WS, friendships are formed people exhange names commonly and call each other. BUT this was 9 years ago, things were different then about 'people' who were on the internet, BOO. They are still among us, the bad people that is.>>

That is for sure.
I made friends with someone on another forum and she turned out to be a real loop. Unfortunately I had given her my number and she caused me no end of grief with prank calls.
I have since learnt to exercise more caution but have made some great friends at WS.


<<I just wish someone in the BPD would let me have all of the known facts that they are privy to>>

That drives me crazy.
That there is stuff we just don't know.
That 'stuff' could completely change how we look at this case.

[dingo]

Originally Posted by narlacat

<<Today on WS, friendships are formed people exhange names commonly and call each other. BUT this was 9 years ago, things were different then about 'people' who were on the internet, BOO. They are still among us, the bad people that is.>>

That is for sure.
I made friends with someone on another forum and she turned out to be a real loop. Unfortunately I had given her my number and she caused me no end of grief with prank calls.
I have since learnt to exercise more caution but have made some great friends at WS.


<<I just wish someone in the BPD would let me have all of the known facts that they are privy to>>

That drives me crazy.
That there is stuff we just don't know.
That 'stuff' could completely change how we look at this case.

How long do they get to keep that stuff.
Is it in our lifetime

[sharpar]

Since this is considered an open case then yes the evidence would be held

forever. Going by the cold cases that are finally being solved due to dna

and other technologies- they have the evidence to test.

I dont think we will hear anything about things they may have not

released to the public unless the crime somehow becomes solved.

If Bluecrab is correct - then it will never be released.

[amordei]

I think JAR molested her on a different date. Under my theory, JAR and his college buddies plan a kidnapping with JAR going out of town for the alibi. Unfortunately, something goes awry while the buddies are still in the house.

[kazzbar]

I think it is a highly likely theory. It would explain the stupid imature nature of the ransom note. I think that note is just purile and could not have been written by someone who had really though it through clearly.Could PR and JR found the perps after the crime was committed and helped to cover up.? Running through the story andordering the perps out of town. Surely though, by now, someone would have cracked. Why did they not answer questions straigh away?
I think about this case every day and althuogh Iam a newbie I wish it could be solved as it really bugs me and it is just wicked to think someone killed a 6yr old and got away with it.

[Camper]

Originally Posted by kazzbar

I think it is a highly likely theory. It would explain the stupid imature nature of the ransom note. I think that note is just purile and could not have been written by someone who had really though it through clearly.Could PR and JR found the perps after the crime was committed and helped to cover up.? Running through the story andordering the perps out of town. Surely though, by now, someone would have cracked. Why did they not answer questions straigh away?
I think about this case every day and althuogh Iam a newbie I wish it could be solved as it really bugs me and it is just wicked to think someone killed a 6yr old and got away with it.

---------->>>I have to agree. IF IF it happened that way, the R's could not afford to have lost their little girl, the older son and his reputation and whatever charges involved by his participation, and their own standing in the community, over the possible perversion of the entire matter.

Cover up, yes imop. No foundation nor follow up concern for the rest of the little girls in America yet to be abused and murdered by perverts and strangers. No lasting position taken such as Klaas, Walsh, and so many other mothers of murdered children have done. Hide and seek for all these years, is a great indicator to me. This is a very real American Tragedy is so many ways.

What we don't know is WHY the murderous or hurtful thoughts began, IF IF this version is spot on.



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[Eagle1]

First, a great big welcome to all newbies. We sometimes notice a new name but forget by the time we read all that follows and can reply. Excuse us if you're one that slipped through the cracks that way. (Amordei?)

About JAR and his buddies, certainly possible. I've always had the opinion that JonBenet was molested at the party on the 23rd, and read somewhere that there were about 100 people there, not just the ones in the snapshot some of us saw years ago at, I think, Justice Watch. I think something so bad happened that JonBenet was crying and tried to call 911 because none of the adults would help. Kids her age in school MAY have been taught to complain if somebody touches you where a bathing suit would cover you. Or maybe not, and maybe she just didn't know how to tell the adults, or the person was right there, hotly denied it, and was believed more than a child, just to not have trouble at a party.

Camper has told us she visited the crime scene and 15th street was so narrow that Barnhill would have had a good view of the walker.

Someone, AussieSheila I think, suggested the walker could have been CGaston, so I'm asking, Wasn't he present and accounted for at the Whites' the whole evening, or did he and FW not actually return from carolling?
Anyone know?

Yes, the word "Forgiveness" was indeed suspicious, Narlacat. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. For a while, churches may have been harping on forgiveness, since I think there's a centralized book (Presbyterian?) of suggestions for sermon topics each week, that not all of them would follow.
The R's I believe had been Presbyterians in Atlanta, Episcopal in Boulder. But still it does sound like JAR knew who did it, maybe even himself or pals, at least one of whom lived in Co. and one of whom had visited and slept in JonBenet's other twin bed.

Let's not forget the alleged "Boatman", may have been the same person as the walker. I really doubt JAR would have been dumb enough to give that informant a chance to betray him, his family probably a bit above average in basic intelligence but who knows, if he was terribly upset about something.

[kazzbar]

As we are all aware sometimes kids from previous marriages havesevere resentment to kids born int the'new' relationship especially ifthey see thesuffering of the wronged adult. For all we know the Ramsay household could have been a hot bed of hatred, thinly disguised. I can imagine that JBR's beauty would have constantly shoved down everyone's throats by PR. I just do not feel these people would have been anything but selfish and eggocentric.But this does not murder make. However, resentment, jealousy and hated do. Although, i do not haveany idea who molested JBR , I believe one of the males in the house did it from time to time to keep her in their control. It was about control and suffering not sex. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

[sharpar]

What I cant get past is how depraved this all is . Granted monsters are able to wear a very civilized face you would just think that they would not be able to
wear the facade of civility for nearly a decade. Something or someone would
point an accusing finger their way.

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

First, a great big welcome to all newbies. We sometimes notice a new name but forget by the time we read all that follows and can reply. Excuse us if you're one that slipped through the cracks that way. (Amordei?)

About JAR and his buddies, certainly possible. I've always had the opinion that JonBenet was molested at the party on the 23rd, and read somewhere that there were about 100 people there, not just the ones in the snapshot some of us saw years ago at, I think, Justice Watch. I think something so bad happened that JonBenet was crying and tried to call 911 because none of the adults would help. Kids her age in school MAY have been taught to complain if somebody touches you where a bathing suit would cover you. Or maybe not, and maybe she just didn't know how to tell the adults, or the person was right there, hotly denied it, and was believed more than a child, just to not have trouble at a party.

Camper has told us she visited the crime scene and 15th street was so narrow that Barnhill would have had a good view of the walker.

Someone, AussieSheila I think, suggested the walker could have been CGaston, so I'm asking, Wasn't he present and accounted for at the Whites' the whole evening, or did he and FW not actually return from carolling?
Anyone know?

Yes, the word "Forgiveness" was indeed suspicious, Narlacat. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. For a while, churches may have been harping on forgiveness, since I think there's a centralized book (Presbyterian?) of suggestions for sermon topics each week, that not all of them would follow.
The R's I believe had been Presbyterians in Atlanta, Episcopal in Boulder. But still it does sound like JAR knew who did it, maybe even himself or pals, at least one of whom lived in Co. and one of whom had visited and slept in JonBenet's other twin bed.

Let's not forget the alleged "Boatman", may have been the same person as the walker. I really doubt JAR would have been dumb enough to give that informant a chance to betray him, his family probably a bit above average in basic intelligence but who knows, if he was terribly upset about something.

Eagle1,
Do you know any instances prior to her death, where JonBenet phoned anyone from her own house, or even from someone elses, do 6-year olds routinely initiate phone-calls, how would they know about 911? Some children cannot recite their home address.

Whatever occurred during the party, if it had been of a serous nature, would we not have heard about it by now. There were a lot people there, surely there would be some discussion over it.

Were the same people who were at the Ramsey house on the night of JonBenet's death, also present at the party?

JAR may have been involved but I doubt it. If he had been present that night, why did he not dump JonBenet's corpse a few blocks from her house, after all he would have had to leave himself?

The idea that the Ramsey's are covering for a third party, whilst possible, is tenuous, since any sense of social embarrassment, would be visited upon them with the discovery of JonBenet's corpse in the wine-cellar anyway. They knew this was going to occur, and they did not know how the police would react, unless there were prior phone calls to people in high office.

JonBenet was not murdered by a stranger, or by an intruder, the forensic evidence tells you this. She was killed by someone who not only knew her, but also knew how to navigate about the house, knowing where the wine-cellar is, or any other detail of the basement is not something a random intruder, or even one who stalked JonBenet and planned her abduction and death from a distance could know about. This and other little details all point to someone JonBenet trusted, and was comfortable with the household layout!

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[narlacat]

<<do 6-year olds routinely initiate phone-calls, how would they know about 911? Some children cannot recite their home address.>>

I don't know if it was JonBenét who made that call.
If the Ramsey's were say, an alcoholic/drug addict family with a history of violence,crime,family fueds etc one might think the 6 year old child might have the nouse to ring 911. Those kind of kids drag themselves up and learn to take measures to protect themselves very early on in life.
But that was not the case for Jonbenét, hers was a privileged and cultured lifestyle.
It would be more likely that she didnt know the 911 number than that she did know it.

[clueless]

Originally Posted by UKGuy

Do you know any instances prior to her death, where JonBenet phoned anyone from her own house, or even from someone elses, do 6-year olds routinely initiate phone-calls, how would they know about 911? Some children cannot recite their home address.

When I was in kindergarten (many, many years ago) we had to memorize our home address and phone #. 911 wasn't around so much back then, though. My son, who is now in the 2nd grade, had to learn his home address and phone # when he was in kindergarted as well. He was also taught about 911 and when it was appropriate to call in school, as well as by me. I've also heard on the news at various times about kids as young as 3 who called 911 in an emergency.

When my son first started school, he and his new friends had a thing for wanting to call each other all the time. He would come up with any excuse for using the phone and especially loved to plan the ever popular sleep overs. (sleep overs for boys, slumber parties for girls) I would supervise, of course, but he made the calls by himself routinely. He also loved to call and talk to his grandparents ever since he could talk, though I guess I did the dialing until he started school.

I don't know if JB was the one who called 911, but a 6-year-old is certainly capable.

Clue

[narlacat]

I regress.
A 6 yr old would be capable enough to ring 911 that is true but not all 6 yr olds.
JonBenét was no doubt a bright kid so I guess there's no reason to think she didnt have the brain power to do it and that she might have been taught in school about 911.
So as far as I can tell, the most common reason people believe JonBenét made that call is because someone was 'fiddling' with her at the party and that that person could be responsible for her death ie silencing her.
If it were say John doing the fiddling, why would he choose to do that at that time?
Wouldnt he be entertaining etc?
Was Grandpa Paugh at the party?
God my memorys shocking and my will to go look it up diminishing so I'll just ask here!
Also, does anyone know what interview it might be in where Patsy and John are asked about the call?
I'm asumming it's in one of the interviews

[Camper]

After so long, my memory is getting out of sinc. I donut remember everything that I read and heard about the murder, nor do I remember sources for everything that I read and heard.

BUT those things that I took to be the truth, I do remember with clarity.

Now after so many years, I am thinking about the party on the 23rd. Santa was there, wouldn't you think that IF Santa were in the main area of the party festivities, that the little children would all be hanging like flies to him all the time?

WHEN, where or why would the small kiddies have scattered off to during the party time?

How could JonBenet have ended up on the stairs by the kitchen crying. Which stairs, the circular stair, the basement stair landing er where - anyone have a source for that?

Did PR find the children had left the Santa area, and found them upstairs diddling, and took them into the room where the dictionary was found open to the word incest, and a tongue lashing verbal session with those that she had found diddling? Would it have been then that JonBenet came downstairs and sat down on the bottom step of the circular stair and was crying? I would think she would not have been crying IF she in fact had done the 'right' thing and dialed 911 by herself. This couldn't have been or JonBenet would not have been sharing the secret of the upcoming secret visit from Santa, IF the diddler had told her previously AND THEN they were scolded when found diddling on the 23rd.

WHO would have caused her to cry? WAS JAR at that party, I could see PR dialing 911 IF IF she were at odds with JAR for diddling. Is this when JonBenet was told about her upcoming secret visit AFTER Christmas, and BEFORE PR might have found them together???



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[amordei]

Every now and then I get the bug for the most compelling story I have read (perhaps because I still don't know the ending).

In any event, I don't think the call on 12/23 gets us very far-too many contingencies. However, the fact that Susan Stine shooed the coppers away makes me curious. I thought that the Ramseys hadn't had a close relationship with them yet.

There are just so many layers to this story. But the ransom note is fact and reading that over and over again doesn't make me think PR after an accident. It makes me think of a sophmoric college boy. Hmm...

[clueless]

Come to think of it, me and some of my cousins used to love prank calling 911 just to talk to the operator. (I think I was maybe around 8 - 10 or so when we realized it existed, or at least it became well known.) We would call anytime we got together and would ask the operator silly questions until one time when the operator called us back and told the adults in the house. Boy did we get in trouble for that!

That being said, I don't think I would have called 911 in an emergency if so many adults were around rather than just telling one of them. (My older cousins were the ones who initiated the calling at those family get togethers.) And you better believe that if my mom ignored me telling her something was wrong, that I would not have called behind her back even if I knew it was wrong. At 6-years-old I thought my mom knew everything and if she didn't respond I would have probably thought it was my fault or that it was OK, no matter what we were taught in school.

Clue

[Camper]

Discussing this has made me have more thoughts.

Could PR have found JAR and JonBenet doing something inapproriate and lost it big time, scolding grabbing the phone to call the police, sending JonBenet downstairs with her moms words ringing in her ears etc. Confronting JAR, and being so angry and explaining incest to him, and on and on. Could she have summoned John and could that have been the reason that the two of them were not available for the police responding to the hung up 911 call.

Words attributed to JonBenet, that I do not have the source for (need help), words while crying that she supposedly said about her not feeling or being pretty - wild remembrance on my part.

This could have caused even further anger by the college son. Not only having to deal with the NEW people in his life that had further divided his family into new and assorted pieces, now in major trouble and conflict with his own father?



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