Flashlight

tumble · #1 08-10-2006, 04:59 AM

One thing that seems pretty certain in this case is that the flashlight caused the skull fracture. So lets start spitballing about this flashlight and the wiped batteries.
What questions pop up?

1. Why was that flashlight out of its drawer at all?
2. Why was the flashlight found in the kitchen?
3. Why was the batteries wiped?
4. Who swung the flashlight at JBR head?
5. Was JB struck from behing or from the front? And what does this tell us?
6. When was JB struck by the flashlight?

I give some answers that I feel could be right, please feel free to debate them

1.Burke or JB could have been playing with it.
Or somebody needed the flashlight that night for looking into a normally dark spot like garage, garden, car...
If everything was normal nobody would use a flashlight in a room with normal lighting.
The flashlight was normally kept in a bar drawer.
An interesting observation is that there seem to have been some cleaning activity going on around the bar that night.

17 PATSY RAMSEY: Hanging on, hanging on the
18 little ledge there by the bar. Is that where it
19 was on the other one?
20 TRIP DeMUTH: The other photo we looked at
21 it was on the bar itself.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: It was on the bar. This
23 just looks strange to me.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Cleaning?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Cleaning, Windex or whatever
1 that is.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Underneath the table?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible.) I mean, I just
4 don't know why it would be there. It would
5 either be in the cleaning closet or under the
6 kitchen sink or somewhere (inaudible).

If we can give a plausible answer to just this one question I think we are a good step on the way to understand what happened that night.

2. I think it was placed in the kitchen as staging to make LE think the kidnapper left it there after writing the note. I know this is not consistent, probably an intruder would need the flashlight to find his way in the basement in the dark but I don't think the stager thought about that.
It could also be the case that the attack on JB happened in the kitchen and the flashlight was just left there.

3. From the 98' Interview with JR he mentions that normally the flashlights in the house were ot of batteries

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even
9 know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't
10 work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE).
11 We might have a few blown flashlights around.

I think the batteries were very new and newly put into the flashlight(maybe that same evening) and the wiper thought that LE might see how new they were and conclude that the one who put in the batteries was the killer or at least knew who did it. Probably the flashlight was used before the strike on JB and the batteries had been inserted by someone in the house very recently without thinking about fingerprints as you normally do. Therefore the fingerprints had to go.

4. Don't know. The force needed to crack a 6 year old skull is not that great with a flashlight like that.

5. This we know. Probably from the front as the imprint in the skull show just how the flashlight cut into her skull with the handle pointing forwards. Correct me if I am wrong here cause I have not seen this match myself. This could indicate a fighting situation. Maybe Burke and JB was fighting over something.
A strike from behind would indicate murder.

6. I would say the strike was first and then the garrote because tying a knot around a consious childs neck without causing alot more injury to the body than was done to JB I don't think is plausible.
I am not sure though that the strike on the head was the first violent action againt JB. IMO, she could both have been abused and/or strangled before the strike.

UKGuy · #2 08-10-2006, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumble

2. I think it was placed in the kitchen as staging to make LE think the kidnapper left it there after writing the note. I know this is not consistent, probably an intruder would need the flashlight to find his way in the basement in the dark but I don't think the stager thought about that.
It could also be the case that the attack on JB happened in the kitchen and the flashlight was just left there.

It is inconsistent, also the likely insertion of new batteries demonstrate premeditation.

If the flashlight was used to kill JonBenet in the kitchen, then why would anyone leave it behind?

Its not staging in the sense we use the term, since the person wiped the flashlight clean, hence we know this persons intentions.

What you suggest is not impossible just improbable.

The flashlight obviously played a part since it was wiped clean, it may also have been used in the wine-cellar, or upstairs in her own bedroom.

It need not have originally been located in the kitchen, it may have been left, forgotten, lying about upstairs in JAR's, or JonBenet's room where its potential as the murder weapon might increase, so it was, like other items, re-located to the kitchen, wiped clean, and placed face down.

Curiously I dont think it was ever mentioned if the batteries were new or old?

.

tumble · #3 08-10-2006, 06:59 AM

Its not staging in the sense we use the term, since the person wiped the flashlight clean, hence we know this persons intentions.

Yes, good point. So whos prints were removed from the flashlight.
JR's prints would not be strange to find on it and probably not Burkes either.
PR's prints would call for an explaination so those prints could be worth removing.
Ofcourse an intruder would find it worthwile to remove them but then an intruder would probably wear gloves.

What you suggest is not impossible just improbable.

So UKGuy, why do you think the flashlight was found in the kitchen?
Why was the flashlight not just returned to its drawer?
As we know the prints were wiped the perp was consious about the flashlight, then why leave it in the kitchen?

Curiously I dont think it was ever mentioned if the batteries were new or old?

If this information is lost it is just to bed. I think this could explain the strange wiping of the batteries. If the batteries was shining new the perp might be concerned about the prints.

Another interesting thing is that JR actually tries to put some doubt into LE about the origin of the flashlight.
He speaks of it being too dirty and somewhat too large.

tumble · #4 08-10-2006, 08:31 AM

From the '98 interview with JR

6 Q. Let's talk about, I want to ask
7 this so it is clear for you. The flashlight
8 your son gave you, whether the light in the
9 picture is that or not, but that flashlight,
10 the one you received as a gift from your
11 son, was that the light that, if you had
12 power failures, routinely, that is the first
13 thing you would grab?
14 A. No, not necessarily.
15 Q. Not necessarily?
16 A. Because we kept it -- it was a
17 big flashlight. We kept it, I believe,
18 normally in the drawer down that little sink
19 area in the back hall. I don't even
20 remember if I had a flashlight by my bedside
21 or not.

Hmm, JR has not been asked if he keeps a flashlight by his bedside,...
This might be nothing but could it be that he actually was keeping the flashlight by his bedside and not in the drawer by the bar and this is a slip of the tougue?

SuperDave · #5 08-10-2006, 11:50 AM

"2. I think it was placed in the kitchen as staging to make LE think the kidnapper left it there after writing the note. I know this is not consistent, probably an intruder would need the flashlight to find his way in the basement in the dark but I don't think the stager thought about that."

Yeah, if he brought it to find his way, why not take it? (An intruder, I mean.)

"4. Don't know. The force needed to crack a 6 year old skull is not that great with a flashlight like that."

Like hell! Those maglites are built like tanks!

"Ofcourse an intruder would find it worthwile to remove them but then an intruder would probably wear gloves."

That's the claim, but he supposedly took off his gloves and left a handprint. But even Wood didn't dispute that it was Melinda's, so I guess they realized how stupid that sounded.

tumble · #6 08-10-2006, 01:45 PM

"4. Don't know. The force needed to crack a 6 year old skull is not that great with a flashlight like that."

Like hell! Those maglites are built like tanks!

?? I mean, I don't know who did it because even Burke could do it with a maglite like that. I think we agree here. To answer the 'who' qeustion we must reason about who could have done it. The force needed would only exclude babies. But there are other thing such as grip size, could Burke actually grip the maglite or was it too large for him to swing it?

UKGuy · #7 08-10-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumble

"4. Don't know. The force needed to crack a 6 year old skull is not that great with a flashlight like that."

Like hell! Those maglites are built like tanks!

?? I mean, I don't know who did it because even Burke could do it with a maglite like that. I think we agree here. To answer the 'who' qeustion we must reason about who could have done it. The force needed would only exclude babies. But there are other thing such as grip size, could Burke actually grip the maglite or was it too large for him to swing it?

tumble,

If the flashlight was used to injure JonBenet then it too may be part of the wine-cellar staging.

The stager may have used the flashlight to navigate the basement, and for whatever reason, and in an attempt to lend some violent authenticity to JonBenet's current scenario bashed her on the head with the flashlight?

Although this might seem incorrect so did some other assumptions regarding the wine-cellar until they were analyzed e.g. Garrote, Size-12 Underwear etc.

.

tumble · #8 08-10-2006, 02:29 PM

If the flashlight was used to injure JonBenet then it too may be part of the wine-cellar staging.

How can it be part of the winecellar staging when it was found in the kitchen?
Or do you mean that the injury was part of the staging and the perp didn't want the injury connected with the flashlight?
Why not place the flashlight back were it was taken then?

UKGuy · #9 08-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumble

If the flashlight was used to injure JonBenet then it too may be part of the wine-cellar staging.

How can it be part of the winecellar staging when it was found in the kitchen?
Or do you mean that the injury was part of the staging and the perp didn't want the injury connected with the flashlight?
Why not place the flashlight back were it was taken then?

tumble,

Yes the injury is part of the staging, but if its assumed real, the flashlight weilder has to disassociate himself from it, hence the wiping it clean, maybe it was removed from the wine-cellar later on, remember the staging changed, as I keep mentioning, so the flashlight may be redundant!

.

tumble · #10 08-10-2006, 04:42 PM

There were some kleenex that PR thought were out of place.

6 TRIP DeMUTH: What about that box of

7 Kleenex that's on the table?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

9 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that supposed to be there?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Not really, no, I don't

11 think so.

12 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know where that came

13 from, where that's supposed to be?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, I had Kleenex

15 around, usually in the kitchen, with a box in

16 the bathroom.

17 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there a box of Kleenex in

18 that dining room at all?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- not that I

20 remember. It's unusual that Kleenex would be

21 there.

22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Got a blue, green

23 floral pattern on the box. Does that go to a

24 particular room?

25 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't, I don't

0500

1 remember that box.

2 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say you don't

3 remember that box, what does that mean?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I don't remember

5 that particular box, that design of that box of

6 Kleenex.

PR even distances herself from that kleenex. I think the flashlight was wiped using those kleenex towels. After the flashlight was cleaned I think the stager woudn't like to handle it anymore so he/she left it in on the counter just were those kleenex were found.

The IDIs here must love this, now we got an intruder bringing a maglite and a pack of kleenex so he can leave the maglite cleaned on the scene, can it get any better

BTW, the maglite model with C sized batteries has a handle diameter of 31.75mm so I think a 10year old could grip it.
The D model has 39.67mm diameter and weights about a kilo so that could maybe be to much for Burke.
Was the maglite a size C or size D batteries?

Britt · #11 08-10-2006, 05:16 PM

The maglite on the counter might suggest that Patsy was staging alone before John got up, her staging intended to fool John as much as anyone else...

Maybe she left it on the counter because that's where John had left it, and she was just putting it back. (Didn't I read somwhere that he used the maglite in his plane-related chores? Maybe he'd put out the maglite so he'd remember to take it to the plane in the a.m.)

Or maybe John came downstairs before she had a chance to put it away, and she was off into showtime with the screaming and the ransom note and the 911 call.

Anyway, the batteries were probably cleaned just in case the external cleaning didn't succeed in erasing all physical evidence of being the murder weapon. There's a lot of that "blanket distancing" in this case with all the Ramnesia.

tumble · #12 08-10-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britt

The maglite on the counter might suggest that Patsy was staging alone before John got up, her staging intended to fool John as much as anyone else...

Maybe she left it on the counter because that's where John had left it, and she was just putting it back. (Didn't I read somwhere that he used the maglite in his plane-related chores? Maybe he'd put out the maglite so he'd remember to take it to the plane in the a.m.)

Or maybe John came downstairs before she had a chance to put it away, and she was off into showtime with the screaming and the ransom note and the 911 call.

Anyway, the batteries were probably cleaned just in case the external cleaning didn't succeed in erasing all physical evidence of being the murder weapon. There's a lot of that "blanket distancing" in this case with all the Ramnesia.

According to John PR was inbed when he woke up so she was probably not interrupted by him.

But your idea that the flashlight was just put back where she got it from makes sense. Maybe JR had the flashlight with him when he checked up the plane on the 25th and left it on the table.
It is strange that JR distances himself from the flashlight in that case, or did he start covering up for PR even though PR tried to fool him.

SuperDave · #13 08-11-2006, 11:53 AM

"Yes the injury is part of the staging, but if its assumed real, the flashlight weilder has to disassociate himself from it, hence the wiping it clean, maybe it was removed from the wine-cellar later on, remember the staging changed, as I keep mentioning, so the flashlight may be redundant!"

It certainly is regarding an intruder.

tumble · #14 08-12-2006, 06:52 AM

I find it very interesting that the headblow did not cause any bleedning.

Suppose JB had bled from her head after the strike. Then there would have been bloodspatter evidence.
We probably would know where the attack occured as JB would have dripped blood after being moved.
The weapon used could more easily have been identified.
Handling JB would leave blood on the perp.

We know that the perp made every effort to hide which object was used to hit jB. I think some are even sceptical about the flashlight being used.
All these facts above would have made obfuscating much harder.
The perp was indeed lucky that the wound did not bleed.
Or was it luck?

It seems very far fetched that the perp could purposefully hit her without drawing blood.

My conclusion is that the strike was not done in calculated staging purposes but instead in rage or by accident, accident in the sense it was not meant to kill her.
Senseless rage after strangulation is not plausible so this leaves that the whole act was not planned and the starting point is the flashlight.

UKGuy · #15 08-12-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumble

I find it very interesting that the headblow did not cause any bleedning.

Suppose JB had bled from her head after the strike. Then there would have been bloodspatter evidence.
We probably would know where the attack occured as JB would have dripped blood after being moved.
The weapon used could more easily have been identified.
Handling JB would leave blood on the perp.

We know that the perp made every effort to hide which object was used to hit jB. I think some are even sceptical about the flashlight being used.
All these facts above would have made obfuscating much harder.
The perp was indeed lucky that the wound did not bleed.
Or was it luck?

It seems very far fetched that the perp could purposefully hit her without drawing blood.

My conclusion is that the strike was not done in calculated staging purposes but instead in rage or by accident, accident in the sense it was not meant to kill her.
Senseless rage after strangulation is not plausible so this leaves that the whole act was not planned and the starting point is the flashlight.

tumble,

Quote:

It seems very far fetched that the perp could purposefully hit her without drawing blood.

Well not if she was more or less dead, recently strangled.

Quote:

My conclusion is that the strike was not done in calculated staging purposes but instead in rage or by accident, accident in the sense it was not meant to kill her.

Whacking a 6-year old girl on the head with a maglite was not meant to kill her?

How come the accident, Patsy nonchantly lifted the maglite and thought 'Here have a whack' , 'How about that JonBenet, you still talking to me ?'

The maglite was used to cause JonBenet head trauma, it was designed as staging, and the maglite was likely left where ever this occurred, probably outside the wine-cellar.

An accident is not a homicide, there is much more to JonBenet's death as all the staging and coverup indicates.

.

tumble · #16 08-12-2006, 07:36 AM

Well not if she was more or less dead, recently strangled.

After carefully having staged a scene taking a chance to transfer evidence with a headblow does not seem consistent to me.
Or more generally a perp that is concious about leaving evidence a head blow even against a dead person is pushing the luck.

Whacking a 6-year old girl on the head with a maglite was not meant to kill her?

A 10 year old child like Burke might not understand what he was doing.
I include this as a possibility.

An accident is not a homicide, there is much more to JonBenet's death as all the staging and coverup indicates.

Actually we don't know this is a homicide.

rashomon · #17 08-12-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tumble

I find it very interesting that the headblow did not cause any bleedning.

Suppose JB had bled from her head after the strike. Then there would have been bloodspatter evidence.
We probably would know where the attack occured as JB would have dripped blood after being moved.
The weapon used could more easily have been identified.
Handling JB would leave blood on the perp.

We know that the perp made every effort to hide which object was used to hit jB. I think some are even sceptical about the flashlight being used.
All these facts above would have made obfuscating much harder.
The perp was indeed lucky that the wound did not bleed.
Or was it luck?

It seems very far fetched that the perp could purposefully hit her without drawing blood.

My conclusion is that the strike was not done in calculated staging purposes but instead in rage or by accident, accident in the sense it was not meant to kill her.
Senseless rage after strangulation is not plausible so this leaves that the whole act was not planned and the starting point is the flashlight.

Excellent post tumble. Very good point also about the perp not being able to know beforehand if a blow to the head with such force would not leave blood.

Quote:

The IDIs here must love this, now we got an intruder bringing a maglite and a pack of kleenex so he can leave the maglite cleaned on the scene, can it get any better

Quite an orderly type and neat freak that intruder, wasn't he? He made JonBenet's bed, redressed her, did her hair, latched the wine cellar door, put the chair back in front of the train room, put back the stuff which had been on the window grate and even brought kleenex to wipe the flashlight clean.

SuperDave · #18 08-12-2006, 11:45 AM

"Quite an orderly type and neat freak that intruder, wasn't he? He made JonBenet's bed, redressed her, did her hair, latched the wine cellar door, put the chair back in front of the train room, put back the stuff which had been on the window grate and even brought kleenex to wipe the flashlight clean."

I'm surprised he didn't leave a mint on the pillow!

"My conclusion is that the strike was not done in calculated staging purposes but instead in rage or by accident, accident in the sense it was not meant to kill her."

That's always been what Henry Lee felt.

LI_Mom · #19 08-12-2006, 10:45 PM

What if JB & Burke were downstairs having a late night snack.

They might have had the flashlight out to avoid putting on the kitchen lights.

JB's being bratty & teases Burke & says she's going upstairs to play with/steal one of his new toys.

She runs up, he chases after her & she's already on her way down the main staircase.

What if he dropped the flashlight from the very top of the staircase... and it landed on the top of her head? To stop her or to scare her but ended up seriously hurting her.

Could things have escalated from there? Burke might have screamed for his mother.

Could Patsy have lost it & then concocted the coverup because she thought JB was dead?

That would also explain why Burke is scared silent. Kids can be excellent liars IF they know they'll get into trouble with their parents, think of how much more serious the trouble is when it involves the police.

SuperDave · #20 08-13-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LI_Mom

What if JB & Burke were downstairs having a late night snack.

They might have had the flashlight out to avoid putting on the kitchen lights.

JB's being bratty & teases Burke & says she's going upstairs to play with/steal one of his new toys.

She runs up, he chases after her & she's already on her way down the main staircase.

What if he dropped the flashlight from the very top of the staircase... and it landed on the top of her head? To stop her or to scare her but ended up seriously hurting her.

Could things have escalated from there? Burke might have screamed for his mother.

Could Patsy have lost it & then concocted the coverup because she thought JB was dead?

That would also explain why Burke is scared silent. Kids can be excellent liars IF they know they'll get into trouble with their parents, think of how much more serious the trouble is when it involves the police.

Interesting. Keep going.

One thing's sure: nothing's more dangerous than getting between a mother and he baby, no matter what.

LI_Mom · #21 08-13-2006, 02:34 PM

SuperDave, what I'd like to know it if the velocity of a dropped or thrown Maglite could have done serious damage to her skull.

If not, the general consensus seems to be that Burke would not be powerful enough to fatally wound JB.

The theory that seems most logical to me is that both parents would coverup to protect their surviving child but it's much harder to believe they would coverup for each other.

I would think they told Burke in no uncertain terms to get up to his room & NOT move a muscle until they called him. And they went about what they had to do.

If we are to believe the enhanced 911 call, Burke did sneak downstairs & was still upset. His parents yelled at him & he returns to his room & remains there until his father 'officially' wakes him.

If we discount the enhanced 911 call, then the Ramseys never even bothered to wake Burke (an almost 10 year old boy, hardly a baby) and ask him if he heard or saw ANYTHING last night. It's impossible to believe they would call all those friends to come over for support & not still nobody bothers to ask the only person on that floor if HE knew anything.

I just don't believe they didn't want to upset Burke. They're out of their minds with worry about JB and they're concerned about upsetting Burke? Yeah right.

Britt · #22 08-13-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LI_Mom

What if he dropped the flashlight from the very top of the staircase... and it landed on the top of her head?

***

Could Patsy have lost it & then concocted the coverup because she thought JB was dead?

Hi LI Mom and welcome

But why the elaborate coverup for a simple accident? When Burke whacked JonBenét with the golf club, they took her to the doctor.

They had to have been covering up something worth covering up. IMO the medical evidence makes it obvious what that was -- prior and ongoing abuse.

Quote:

That would also explain why Burke is scared silent.

I agree that Burke was scared silent, but not because he was involved in what happened to JonBenét.

LI_Mom · #23 08-13-2006, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Britt.

The one thing that prevented this case from going to trial, imo, is that no one theory made complete sense. I agree with you that it's unlikely Patsy would flip out over an accident BUT what if this was such a serious accident that she thought JB was dead. Would the fear of Burke being arrested be enough to push her over the edge?

What kind of shape would a young child be in if they have an almost 8 inch skull fracture? Would she be at all responsive? Would they detect a pulse or would it be so faint & they are so nervous they can't feel it?

SuperDave · #24 08-13-2006, 05:57 PM

"SuperDave, what I'd like to know it if the velocity of a dropped or thrown Maglite could have done serious damage to her skull."

No idea.

"If we discount the enhanced 911 call, then the Ramseys never even bothered to wake Burke (an almost 10 year old boy, hardly a baby) and ask him if he heard or saw ANYTHING last night. It's impossible to believe they would call all those friends to come over for support & not still nobody bothers to ask the only person on that floor if HE knew anything."

Would any of you parents let him out of your sight for ONE SECOND?

Darlene733510 · #25 08-13-2006, 09:28 PM

I have been thinking about JB's head injury, and what could have caused it. I have also done a lot of reading on the JB Forum. Super smart posters here, and many theories.

Could JB's skull fracture have been caused by a hand held shower sprayer. Ours is made of stainless steel, and very sturdy. The spray head is round, and similar to the size of the flashlight.

I think this could happened in a moment of rage or impatience with JB's bedwetting. Perhaps the toilet was next to the tub, and the shower sprayer within reach.

Wasn't there a stange smell in the bathroom. If there was any blood from the head wound, could it have been cleaned up, and flushed down the toilet, and then some type of toilet bowl cleaner used to cover up the crime. Won't bleach cause luminol to be ineffective, and who knows if the bathroom drains were checked for blood.

I seem to remember that something was wrong with one of the bathrooms, and PR couldn't shower there. I wonder what the problem was. Correct me if I am wrong in making this statement.

The white blanket she was wrapped in - was it from her bed? The size 12 panties we know were in a drawer in the bathroom, and I would think that someone in a state of panic would not even realize they were the wrong size.

I think JB was struck on the head in the bathroom, wrapped in the blanket and carried to the basement. I think the flashlight was used because the person who killed her did not want to put on any lights in the house. Why the flashlight and batteries were wiped clean is still a mystery.

After JB was brought to the basement I also believe that the rest was all staged to protect the person who killed her, and I believe that person was PR.

Today I watched th JB movie, and in the end when they
held the press conf., it showed JR & PR watching the outcome, and when they said they weren't charging anyone with a crime, PR began to cry, and it just seemed to me like it was such a relief for both of them. If it had been me, and my child was dead, I would have been outraged, and insisted that they not end the case, and continue to try and find out who killed my child, not sobbing in relief because I felt I was no longer a suspect.