Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #184

[sunshineray]

The PCA in this case does not make sense sometimes. It is difficult to understand the timeline.

For example, the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is strange. According to the PCA her car was observed passing the Hoosier Harveststore camera at 1:46pm. Why does the PCA not say that Kelsi saw another car in the parking lot verifying the witness story? Does it say this somewhere in the PCA? I wonder how long it took the girls to get their things together before Kelsi left them to drive away? Yet the PCA says a car matching that of the one that dropped off the girls is seen leaving driving away by passing the Hoosier Harveststore camera at 1:49pm.

It looks like by car it is only maybe 30 seconds from the Hoosier Harveststore camera to the Mears parking lot?

What really matters is the confessions by Richard Allen. If they contain any information that only the killer would know, then I think he will be convicted. I suppose it is a good thing he came forward or the case might not have been solved.

Was there mention somewhere that Kelsei described a car in front of her, where she pulled up to drop off? Something about a vehicle having stickers on the back window? Does this sound familiar to anyone or am I mistaken?

 

[snooptroop88]

I'm still confuse as to how that all shook out. Did RA contact this CO specifically to interview with or was this CO assigned RA by the officers handling who went where and talked to whom? Do we know RA called DD, have I just forgotten?

Seeing this in statement from D: "Rick volunteered to meet with a Conservation Officer outside of the local grocery store to offer up details of his trip to the trail on the day in question...Rick does not recall if this interaction with the Conservation Officer was tape-recorded but believes that the Conservation Officer scribbled notes on a notepad..."

Seeing this in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M Allen in 2017. That narrative stated: Mr Allen was on the trail between 1330-1530. He parked at the old Farm Bureau building and walked to the new Freedom Bridge. While at the Freedom Bridge he saw three females. He noted one was taller and had brown or black hair. He did not remember description nor did he speak with them. He walked from the Freedom Bridge to the High Bridge. He did not see anybody, although he stated he was watching a stock ticker on his phone as he walked..."

Agreed that it could be a pretty big point on how exactly the "volunteering" came about. Who initiated what when? It doesn't seem like any of these details are available yet. I can't picture a conservation officer being too pleased having to jot notes about a murder investigation outside a grocery store. I can't picture the conservation officer having chosen this set up, but maybe so. The "volunteering" makes "Rick" sound like a boy scout. The conservation officer, though, is standing outside a grocery store jotting on a notepad about a murder investigation, that doesn't sound so much like "Rick" is a boy scout. I would think the best place for the interview would have been on the trail itself for boy scout volunteering "Rick." It definitely seems more like the place where you'd find a CO. Maybe an interview about a murder investigation outside a grocery store was the CO's idea, but I tend to doubt it, MOO. Maybe they moved to another area, I think that would be specified, maybe they sat in a vehicle. Still not really an ideal set up for the CO, would RA realistically think there could be any possibility that this was tape recorded?? I would guess no??

 

[FromGermany1]

I remember, that LE via newspaper had searched for the BG in Libby's video TO SPEAK TO HIM. Short time later, they searched for the man, because he COULD HAVE PARTICIPATED in the crime.

It would be nice to know, when the first news came out and WHEN exactly RA spoke to the CO. But it always remains vague (like my statement ). That's the crux since 7 years. If you need a date or a time, there isn't to find anything. IMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Was there mention somewhere that Kelsei described a car in front of her, where she pulled up to drop off? Something about a vehicle having stickers on the back window? Does this sound familiar to anyone or am I mistaken?

I remember a box van (?) full of stickers on the back window (or door?). The color I don't remember well, although I think: black.
Because I have a certain car in mind, maybe that my memory is playing tricks on me.

 

[FromGermany1]

The PCA in this case does not make sense sometimes. It is difficult to understand the timeline.

For example, the witness who saw Richard Allen on platform 1 of the Monon High Bridge is strange. According to the PCA her car was observed passing the Hoosier Harveststore camera at 1:46pm. Why does the PCA not say that Kelsi saw another car in the parking lot verifying the witness story? Does it say this somewhere in the PCA? I wonder how long it took the girls to get their things together before Kelsi left them to drive away? Yet the PCA says a car matching that of the one that dropped off the girls is seen leaving driving away by passing the Hoosier Harveststore camera at 1:49pm.

It looks like by car it is only maybe 30 seconds from the Hoosier Harveststore camera to the Mears parking lot?

What really matters is the confessions by Richard Allen. If they contain any information that only the killer would know, then I think he will be convicted. I suppose it is a good thing he came forward or the case might not have been solved.

I believe, the girls probably got out of Kelsi's car relatively quickly, because Kelsi was in a hurry. She had to start her work shift and wanted to go to her boyfriend first, as far as I remember. MOO

 

[FromGermany1]

Who is the man, who was seen by whomever at the entry sign to the trail? DC (?) said, a man was standing there, looking at the sign, I think: when Abby/Libby arrived. RA couldn't have been the man. Who was it and why was this so very important to mention by LE?

 

[girlhasnoname]

This is exactly why JG is tired of them playing in her court room. I watched Defense Diaries last night and Motta called her "an old war horse" who doesn't remain stoic (not in her skillset) and speaks her mind. I like it. It could have been a sneak diss but I wouldn't mind if people thought I was nonsensical and a straight shooter. A real follower of the law IMOO.

Another interesting point they made was the defense could have stuck to the trial timeline. The State could run up the clock leaving the D to end it with no time to rebuttal witnesses. They also believed Baldwin requested the transcript so they can issue another order to get rid of JG. They said they should ask for the audio too.

BM calling Judge Gull an "old war horse" is so disrespectful IMO, especially coming from a lawyer (is he practicing these days or just doing Podcasts?). IDK

The D has known the scheduled trial time set by Judge Gull based on THEIR OWN filing of Motion for Speedy Trial, why did they run the clock down themselves by waiting until the last minute hearing to say they wouldn't have enough time to present their D? They could have argued or disagreed when it was first published. It was planned this way and yet another smoke and mirrors subterfuge with them IMO.

The fact that AB made a Motion for Judge Gull to recuse herself again was another slap in the face. This D cannot and will not act civilly or professionally, they haven't from Day 1 and they won't until the bitter end.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Obvious explanation he used his contacts to gain access.

Agree, TC has had his own agenda IMO. He wanted to be the one who 'solved the famous Delphi case" and could not stand it when he wasn't given access to the latest case information when he met with the P.

Why would anyone, former officer included, think the State would provide them access to any prosecution information in one of the biggest ongoing double homicide case investigations?

MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

On the RA interview with CO/DD, @Boxer mentioned a while back that this interview probably took place at the Save a Lot, which is near CVS. This seems logical, and most of the groceries in Delphi appear to be pretty near the CVS, I just Googled it. They're all concentrated in that little area in a knot for the most part. The reason for that may be that RA wasn't "able to make" an interview unless the CO met him when RA could take a break/go to lunch from the CVS. It's definitely not an ideal location or schedule (rushed interviewee) for such an interview, so I have a bad feeling it may be RA's doing that it occurred that way. Also have a bad feeling that the interview document may have gotten lost in the shuffle because it went through the conservation office's Dept of Natural Resources/DNR filing system rather than a municipal, county or state LE filing system. Pure speculation.

 

[Megnut]

Which witnesses saw Libby and Abby (on their own) walking the trails that day?

Betsy B.

And Kelsei...for the timeline, those two are very important entries.

I propose we count five witnesses who saw Abby and Libby.

Kelsi who saw them when she dropped them off. Timestamped.

BB who encountered them on the trail as she was leaving after having seen BG on Platform 1. Roughly timestamped.

Abby herself. Abby saw Libby take her picture on the bridge. Timestamped.

Libby who saw Abby, photographer her on the bridge. Same timestamp.

And RA himself, who based on the testimony of BB, his own testimony about Platform 1 and the bench, and the video taken by Libby, places him on the bridge/trail on absolute course to cross paths with Abby and Libby.

Yes, he denied seeing them. The one person who might have had the greatest motivation to lie

He was described as on a mission, presumably in a hurry, alternately looking at a stick ticker on his phone or looking at fish from an impossible height but he did recall passing the cluster of juveniles (only to recall one being taller and one with brown or black hair iirc) but didn't "remember" seeing Abby and Libby?

That omission, that lie, IMO plays into his undoing.

Based on the other timestamps, IMO RA most certainly saw Abby and Libby as they reached the bridge.

And didn't report seeing anyone matching or similar to his own description....

And yet, within minutes, Libby is filming one....

Conclusion: the fifth witness should have seen them. Left that detail out.

Yowza.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Has it been confirmed that any of the eyewitnesses specifically identified RA?

From the PCA:

bbm

“Interviews were conducted with 3 juveniles, and They advised they were on the Monon High Bridge Trail on February 13th, 2017. They advised they were walking on the trail toward Freedom Bridge to go home when they encountered a male walking from Freedom Bridge toward the Monon High Bridge. described the male as "kind of creepy" and advised he was wearing "like blue jeans a like really light blue jacket and he his hair was gray maybe a little brown and he did not really show his face." She advised the jacket was a duck canvas type jacket.

() advised she said "Hi" to the male but he just glared at them. She recalled him being in all black and had something covering his mouth. She described him as "not very tall" with a bigger build. She said he was not bigger than 5'10".

() advised he was wearing a black hoodie, black jeans, and black boots. She stated he had his hands in his pockets. showed investigators photograpks she took on her phone while she was on the trail that day. The photographs included a photo of the Monon High Bridge taken at 12:43 p.m., and another one taken at 1:26 p.m. of the bench East of the Freedom Bridge. advised after she took the photo of the bench they started walking back toward Freedom Bridge. She advised that was when they encountered the man Who matched the description of the photogruph taken from Victim 2's video.”

View attachment 503129

My understanding from the PCA is: eyewitnesses saw = BG ; BG = the killer.

I feel I’m missing some steps-where are the steps that confirm:

1. BG is the killer & 2. RA is BG?

Also, is the PCA implying 3 eyewitnesses walking together had different descriptions of what BG was wearing? 2 of 3 eyewitnesses said BG was covering his face or his face was obscured-the eyewitness that said he was wearing light blue & one of the 2 witnesses that said BG was dressed in all black. Why did one eyewitness not mention black while the other 2 said all black?

Source:
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

As you have probably already heard, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

We have no idea what evidence the prosecution has against Richard Allen so I can only assume LE arrested the right person if they have very strong evidence they are keeping secret until trial. However, at this time it seems like the only evidence the state has against Richard Allen is an unspent cartridge they can prove through subjective tool analysis was cycled through his gun and confessions that they got from him after he was arrested. That is it that we know of at this time.

All this other talk of eyewitnesses I do not think will hold up in court against cross examination. It is a public trail. If the defense is smart, they will ask every single eyewitness:

Did you see the defendant with Abigail Williams and Liberty German?
Did you see the defendant with any two females that day on the Monon High Bridge trail?

No further questions.

Great questions and great answer in the above posts.

If I may add, not only is "witness tedtimony notoriously unreliable", these were child witnesses.

What is  remarkable, however, is how consistent multiple witnesses are. IMO they corroborate one another.

Even the black clothes/ blue clothes discrepancy. How?

The child whose description varies from the others, in color, did not report seeing two men. She was with the other juveniles. If the man in black clothes was a different person than the one in blue clothes, she should have seen them both. Likewise, it follows that the other juveniles would have seen the second person too. Obvious conclusion: they all saw the same man but recalled him slightly differently. I think they all did really well with recall. A+ testimony from children who didn't know they'd ever have to remember anything about that day.

JMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Agree, TC has had his own agenda IMO. He wanted to be the one who 'solved the famous Delphi case" and could not stand it when he wasn't given access to the latest case information when he met with the P.

Why would anyone, former officer included, think the State would provide them access to any prosecution information in one of the biggest ongoing double homicide case investigations?

MOO

Especially after said retired officer had already sent purposefully discoverable letter basically questioning the validity of an arrest and manufacturing “exculpatory”evidence to increase everyone’s workload.
JMO. This whole thing was a strategy born by defense to throw the case. Because their client is absolutely guilty.
AMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Especially after said retired officer had already sent purposefully discoverable letter basically questioning the validity of an arrest and manufacturing “exculpatory”evidence to increase everyone’s workload.
JMO. This whole thing was a strategy born by defense to throw the case. Because their client is absolutely guilty.
AMO

Yes, ANOTHER strategy by the D IMO. Now I understand why the State requested TC's employee records. He repeatedly inserted himself into the investigation even after his retirement.

MOO

 

[somequestions]

I remember a box van (?) full of stickers on the back window (or door?). The color I don't remember well, although I think: black.
Because I have a certain car in mind, maybe that my memory is playing tricks on me.

I think I remember this as well. I thought Kelsi said it was a black SUV with a bunch of stickers in the back window, but I could be wrong. Was that what the witness(BB) drove to the Mears parking lot that day?

What is remarkable is that Kelsi does remember seeing at least a vehicle in the Mears parking lot that day so her memory does remember that detail. Many people today now drive SUVs instead of cars, but if for example the witness, BB, drove a car to the Mears parking lot that day, it makes one wonder if the black SUV was indeed BB's.

I think we have to remember with all the witnesses, including Kelsi, that nobody expected them to have to try to remember all these details that now seem like they are so crucial to the case.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Was there mention somewhere that Kelsei described a car in front of her, where she pulled up to drop off? Something about a vehicle having stickers on the back window? Does this sound familiar to anyone or am I mistaken?

I remember this as well.
A dark colored vehicle with a lot of stickers was noted .

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Here's an old clip of Robert Ives talking about the case.
I wonder where we would be now had he stayed on the case.

 

[sunshineray]

Seeing this in statement from D: "Rick volunteered to meet with a Conservation Officer outside of the local grocery store to offer up details of his trip to the trail on the day in question...Rick does not recall if this interaction with the Conservation Officer was tape-recorded but believes that the Conservation Officer scribbled notes on a notepad..."

Seeing this in the PCA: "Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard M Allen in 2017. That narrative stated: Mr Allen was on the trail between 1330-1530. He parked at the old Farm Bureau building and walked to the new Freedom Bridge. While at the Freedom Bridge he saw three females. He noted one was taller and had brown or black hair. He did not remember description nor did he speak with them. He walked from the Freedom Bridge to the High Bridge. He did not see anybody, although he stated he was watching a stock ticker on his phone as he walked..."

Agreed that it could be a pretty big point on how exactly the "volunteering" came about. Who initiated what when? It doesn't seem like any of these details are available yet. I can't picture a conservation officer being too pleased having to jot notes about a murder investigation outside a grocery store. I can't picture the conservation officer having chosen this set up, but maybe so. The "volunteering" makes "Rick" sound like a boy scout. The conservation officer, though, is standing outside a grocery store jotting on a notepad about a murder investigation, that doesn't sound so much like "Rick" is a boy scout. I would think the best place for the interview would have been on the trail itself for boy scout volunteering "Rick." It definitely seems more like the place where you'd find a CO. Maybe an interview about a murder investigation outside a grocery store was the CO's idea, but I tend to doubt it, MOO. Maybe they moved to another area, I think that would be specified, maybe they sat in a vehicle. Still not really an ideal set up for the CO, would RA realistically think there could be any possibility that this was tape recorded?? I would guess no??

You know, seeing you lay that all out...I wonder if it happened that RA was leaving work and saw the CO over by the grocery and just spur of the moment said I'll tell him I was there. It was probably his best option, in his mind. I can always say, hey I reported being there. And if it got lost in the shuffle, better yet...and it did. When nobody came to talk to him he probably thought, ok I'm good, nobody recognized me and nobody is following up on the CO guy's notes. AJMO

 

[Willow Knight]

BM calling Judge Gull an "old war horse" is so disrespectful IMO, especially coming from a lawyer (is he practicing these days or just doing Podcasts?). IDK

The D has known the scheduled trial time set by Judge Gull based on THEIR OWN filing of Motion for Speedy Trial, why did they run the clock down themselves by waiting until the last minute hearing to say they wouldn't have enough time to present their D? They could have argued or disagreed when it was first published. It was planned this way and yet another smoke and mirrors subterfuge with them IMO.

The fact that AB made a Motion for Judge Gull to recuse herself again was another slap in the face. This D cannot and will not act civilly or professionally, they haven't from Day 1 and they won't until the bitter end.

JMO

This is why I don't think the defense has any intention of Richard Allen ever going to trial. IMO, Allen is going to plead at the last moment. In the meantime the defense is going to get as much money and publicity they can create. To talk about the judge in this manner is nothing more than childish. Like a two year old having a temper tantrum. All this MOO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

You know, seeing you lay that all out...I wonder if it happened that RA was leaving work and saw the CO over by the grocery and just spur of the moment said I'll tell him I was there. It was probably his best option, in his mind. I can always say, hey I reported being there. And if it got lost in the shuffle, better yet...and it did. When nobody came to talk to him he probably thought, ok I'm good, nobody recognized me and nobody is following up on the CO guy's notes. AJMO

Yes I’ve always through it was not a pre planned meeting. I think he saw DD in passing and was somewhat familiar with him. I think it happened the morning of the 14th after DD had already been up half the night before searching for the girls and possibly already that morning and he was running into Sav-A-lot to grab something to eat.
RA wouldn’t have known his image was captured by the victims and would soon be broadcast. BUT I do believe he had told his wife that he had been on the trails they day and she urged him to report as a Good Samaritan.
IMO that self report is how KA may have been able to push away concerns over RA’s resemblance to BG- that the police knew he was there and he was “cleared”.

AMO

 

[vinayd]

VERIFIED PETITION FOR PUBLIC FUNDS

MOTION TO VACATE SAFEKEEPING ORDER