Convictions of Murder Without A Body

[ScreenName]

Good question....I'm not sure of the answer...sorry

 

[impatientredhead]

According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

 

[Ginny]

What I thought double jeopardy was being made to stand trial for the same crime twice. For example, beating a murder charge then new evidence is found that links you directly to that murder. They can't bring you up on charges again.

I honestly don't know how it would unfold with this case. The neglect charge is not the same as what the murder charge would be. I mean she's being charged with neglect for not reporting her missing for 31 days. Correct? The fact still stands that she never reported Caylee missing. Caylee's murder is a totally different crime. IMO

As always, I could be completely wrong and I think with a case like this, it isn't as cut and dry as we would want it to be.

 

[Ginny]

According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Spangle]

If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

 

[jpaull]

According to previously released articles Caylee being missing is the "event", they have currently charged her with neglect relevant to that, if they go all the way to trial and have not charged her with anything else they cannot go back and add additional charges related to the same event.

I would think that is true except that for a murder charge, the "event" would be Caylee's death, not just her going missing.

Regardless, this assumes that she gets her trial and is convicted before enough evidence is gathered to warrant a murder charge. I don't think that will happen. As soon as the prosecutors have their evidence for a murder charge, they would likely upgrade the original charges ASAP.

 

[kbay5]

If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

I don't think they necessarily have to have a body to charge her with murder as long as they have evidence of a death and other evidence and this I am sure they would do before letting her walk on it.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

I'm wondering about this child neglect charge she is facing. She is charged with neglect (among other things) and say they DON'T find Caylee's body (before she goes to trial). Can anybody tell me if say she goes to trial and they find her guilty, she gets some jail time and THEN they find Caylee. It would be hard pressed for someone to prove HOW she died and when, let alone it was Casey. But hypothetically speaking let's say they find Caylee's body and she died of something like blunt force trauma.

Casey can't be charged with anything or can she? Double Jeopardy or no?

What if as of today Casey invoked her right to a speedy trial. (I mean, it COULD happen, especially if she KNOWS the possibility of finding Caylee's body is pretty remote) She can cop to the child neglect, and the other charges (because they are relatively minor charges compared to murder) plead guilty and take a sentence?

I was reading up on the US Constitution and I hit the part about a person's right to a speedy trial that started me thinking about how it applies to Casey.

US Supreme Court Center > US Constitution > 6th Amendment > Right to a Speedy and Public Trial
The reason I'm asking is my cousin was charged with Assault with a Deadly weapon 3rd degree in Los Angeles. (He got into it with a bouncer at a club out in the parking lot and picked up a rope divider pole and knocked the bouncer out.)
He was arrested and bonded out, on his court date the bouncer and him were in court, and my cousin's attorney said he would plead guilty if the bouncer guy would agree no charges would come up later saying what my cousin did caused any future problems. Bouncer agrees. He plead guilty to the charge, got 3 months and a 1500 dollar fine. He did a month and 1/2 and he was done.

The bouncer guy started having seizures 18 months after this, and I know this because he was going out with a girl my cousin used to date. She told my cousin the bouncer said it was because he got hit with a pole by my cousin. My cousin told him, "what are you going to do, SUE ME?"

It couldn't happen. My cousin's attorney told him that. Now that was 6 years ago. Can Casey and JB do something to this effect here with these charges??

Thanks

It would not be double jeopardy. Double Jeopardy is being charged and tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts. The "set of facts" part is important because you can steal 3 cars and be charged with the car theft 3 times. You would need to steal a fourth car to generate a fourth charge of car theft. You cannot be charged and tried for the same crime on the same facts over and over. That is DJ. Now , if they happened to find a body in one of those 4 car trunks, while you were doing time for the car theft of one of the 4 cars, (having been found guilty after trial) and the ensuing investigation showed you to be responsible for the death of that body, you would then be charged with that murder, although you had already had a trial involving the theft of that car. All the evidence from the car theft trial would probably be relevant and useful at the murder trial. It would not be DJ to use it as the charge is expanded, different and using facts and evidence not involved at the first trial..to prove a new and different charge.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

Hi,

That argument was mentioned by Atty JB earlier and it is different from double jeopardy. Because the murder would involve new facts, new evidence, new charges, it is thus doubtful that argument would fly in Florida Courts.

It is more to prevent a scenario where a defendant is charged with say...larceny of a motor vehicle , and has a trial. Then to try to charge the same defendant, on the same incident, with say, malicious damage to the vehicle (popping the ignition during theft) , oh say 3 months after the trial is over...that shouldn't fly. It is not really double jeopardy as it's a different crime; but it is a crime arising out of the same facts and same evidence used in the larceny.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville

 

[lillygator]

If she is charged and go to trail because of the child negl. THEN they find the body, they can not go back and charge her with murder. Because that was the outcome of the child negl.

That was what was said weeks ago when she was first charged.

BAsed upon that, IMHO...
If Caylee is dead, it's in the best interest of the family, if the body isn't found until at least after the triall starts. So Casey is never charged with her murder.

wow - I had no clue how that works...so she can be convicted of the neglect charges and then later if Caylee is found dead, she can't be tried for that?

 

[impatientredhead]

It would not be double jeopardy. Double Jeopardy is being charged and tried twice for the same crime on the same set of facts. The "set of facts" part is important because you can steal 3 cars and be charged with the car theft 3 times. You would need to steal a fourth car to generate a fourth charge of car theft. You cannot be charged and tried for the same crime on the same facts over and over. That is DJ. Now , if they happened to find a body in one of those 4 car trunks, while you were doing time for the car theft of one of the 4 cars, (having been found guilty after trial) and the ensuing investigation showed you to be responsible for the death of that body, you would then be charged with that murder, although you had already had a trial involving the theft of that car. All the evidence from the car theft trial would probably be relevant and useful at the murder trial. It would not be DJ to use it as the charge is expanded, different and using facts and evidence not involved at the first trial..to prove a new and different charge.

Just an opinion from Newbie-Ville.

Correct, it is not double jeopardy. It is a Florida state statute that says you cannot go back and charge someone with additional charges related to the same criminal event. It would be one of the major risks of charging someone too early, or using a lesser charge to hold them. I hadn't heard of it before, it was reported under "little known Florida statute maybe the loophole Baez is counting on". I doubt it will happen but if it does it will have been a major error to charge her with neglect. I don't think they thought she would continue with this story and would say it was an accident (prior to the chloroform searches and lab results).

http://www.wftv.com/news/17193405/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news (3rd paragraph)

LOOPHOLE COULD ALLOW CASEY TO BEAT SYSTEM

A loophole could allow Caylee Anthony's mother to beat the system. She's still only facing charges of child neglect and giving false statements.

If her attorney asks for a speedy trial, they could be the only charges she ever faces. Florida law prohibits a person from being tried on more serious charges at a later date if the person stands trial for something that's related.

"If you lose a kid and that results in a child's death, that's one and the same case, because those are manslaughter charges," said board-certified trial attorney Richard Hornsby.


If Casey was found guilty of child neglect, she would only serve up to five years in prison versus a maximum of life for murder. Still, detectives have never said that Caylee Anthony is dead or that Casey is under investigation for murder or manslaughter.

 

[catherineb]

HOLD on, I don't think they can get her on child neglect. Her story is that Caylee has been kidnapped....so how can they get her on neglect if there is no child to interview or check the welfare of? Plus, all the statements indicated that she was a good mom.

So, I think they can only get her on the obstruction of justice and fraud charges at this point. I don't know how much longer they are gonna wait until they file murder charges, but I understand that having a body would be a slam dunk, and they are taking their chances without a body and a jury member not being 100% convinced.

 

[Spangle]

HOLD on, I don't think they can get her on child neglect. Her story is that Caylee has been kidnapped....so how can they get her on neglect if there is no child to interview or check the welfare of? Plus, all the statements indicated that she was a good mom.

So, I think they can only get her on the obstruction of justice and fraud charges at this point. I don't know how much longer they are gonna wait until they file murder charges, but I understand that having a body would be a slam dunk, and they are taking their chances without a body and a jury member not being 100% convinced.

IMHO.....For failing to report the kidnapping, where the LE could help find her.

It's kinda like failing to get medical help for someone in need.

 

[TexasLil]

IMO neglect is not calling 911 for 31 days after the child went missing.

 

[TexasLil]

I'm wondering if this can be used against her in any way...

"She kept saying, 'Get me out of here. I'll take you to my baby. I'll tell you what happened,'" Padilla said.

 

[Indianagirl]

I honestly don't see how she could not be convicted of the child neglect charge...IMO that part of this case is open and shut.

 

[catherineb]

I honestly don't see how she could not be convicted of the child neglect charge...IMO that part of this case is open and shut.

I don't think so. Definition of Neglect in FL is this: "NEGLECT: Any act or omission where a child is deprived of, or allowed to be deprived of, necessary supervision, food, clothing, shelter, or medical treatment, or a child is permitted to live in an environment when such deprivation or environment causes the child's physical, mental, or emotional health to be significantly impaired or to be in danger of being significantly impaired. " http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/abuse/definitions.shtml

I understand what you mean, but by the law itself, Caylee has to be PRESENT to determine if the following things are evident. Since she is missing and can't be evaluated for her mental, emotional, and physical health, it doesn't cut it. It is neglectful to not report her as missing, but I don't think it meets the FL Statute of neglect legally. I don't know if there are any laws that it make a crime to not report a missing person....but that isn't the same legally as DCF's version of abuse and neglect.

 

[amethyst221]

If you notice, though, that article talks about child neglect resulting in Caylee's death. That isn't necessarily required or charged at this time. I agree that losing or "mismanaging" or misplacing your child and failing to report it for 30 days, for no credible reason, must be neglect or abandonment, even if she may still be alive. Murder would be a different crime not subject to double jeopardy claims.

I think the state is using the time it has to see if they can find a body, to shore up murder charges, and also to gather as much other evidence as possible. At some point before the neglect charge goes to trial, they will add the most serious other charges they can. As time goes by, IF Casey isn't charged with murder, she might get to like staying out on bond and might not be so anxious to go to trail on charges that could put her in prison for years. She can always waive her right to speedy trial. All the strategizing hasn't even really begun!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think so. Definition of Neglect in FL is this: "NEGLECT: Any act or omission where a child is deprived of, or allowed to be deprived of, necessary supervision, food, clothing, shelter, or medical treatment, or a child is permitted to live in an environment when such deprivation or environment causes the child's physical, mental, or emotional health to be significantly impaired or to be in danger of being significantly impaired. " http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/abuse/definitions.shtml

I understand what you mean, but by the law itself, Caylee has to be PRESENT to determine if the following things are evident. Since she is missing and can't be evaluated for her mental, emotional, and physical health, it doesn't cut it. It is neglectful to not report her as missing, but I don't think it meets the FL Statute of neglect legally. I don't know if there are any laws that it make a crime to not report a missing person....but that isn't the same legally as DCF's version of abuse and neglect.

I do believe if she is charged with the death of Caylee, most likely the charge of neglect will be set aside. The obstruction charge will remain in force imo.

However, it is obvious to me that she is guilty of neglect. This is confirmed by her own story. First, she is the sole custodian of this child so Caylee's welfare is her paramount total responsibility. Casey knows that Caylee has been kidnapped and has no way of knowing if she is or if she is not in grave danger or worse, yet as a neglectful custodian she stands idle and doesn't ever lift a finger to even report it to police. Gross neglect imo. Even if her babble was true.....she would have failed by neglecting to meet her responsibilities to see to it that her child was free from all risks of possible harm and neglect. Actually it was as if Casey had abandoned Caylee and her needs from minute one. I think when Casey had Caylee a whole lot of neglect was happening to her. Mommy wanted to party hardy...Caylee was her obstacle.

I don't know if it would be DJ. I do know I have read about defendants who were charged with "attempted murder" and convicted and then the victim later died and they charge them with "murder". Same evidence used in both trials except the MEs report on the death of the victim instead of the surviving injuries they had when the defendant was convicted of attempted murder back at that time.



JMO tho.

 

[EvaInCA]

Correct, it is not double jeopardy. It is a Florida state statute that says you cannot go back and charge someone with additional charges related to the same criminal event. It would be one of the major risks of charging someone too early, or using a lesser charge to hold them. I hadn't heard of it before, it was reported under "little known Florida statute maybe the loophole Baez is counting on". I doubt it will happen but if it does it will have been a major error to charge her with neglect. I don't think they thought she would continue with this story and would say it was an accident (prior to the chloroform searches and lab results).

http://www.wftv.com/news/17193405/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news (3rd paragraph)

LOOPHOLE COULD ALLOW CASEY TO BEAT SYSTEM

A loophole could allow Caylee Anthony's mother to beat the system. She's still only facing charges of child neglect and giving false statements.

If her attorney asks for a speedy trial, they could be the only charges she ever faces. Florida law prohibits a person from being tried on more serious charges at a later date if the person stands trial for something that's related.

"If you lose a kid and that results in a child's death, that's one and the same case, because those are manslaughter charges," said board-certified trial attorney Richard Hornsby.


If Casey was found guilty of child neglect, she would only serve up to five years in prison versus a maximum of life for murder. Still, detectives have never said that Caylee Anthony is dead or that Casey is under investigation for murder or manslaughter.

THAT is what I was trying to ask and thank you Red for helping me clarify it. Okay so seeing as how this little loophole is a possibility and Baez knows it, I guess the pressure is on the prosecution? I'm asking because somewhere in the little dark place in my gut that tells me I better get ready because she might get off easy on this. I pray it doesn't happen. But the way things are going some days it's hard to feel like justice will be served. But we'll see.

Thanks again for clearing that up for me. Appreciate it