Don't Count Him Out, William Thoresen III

[Winward1]

In case anyone's interested, there's a debate going on in the following thread as to whether the Michigan Coed Killer and Zodiac were one and the same:

MI - MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

 

[Winward1]

BTW, in case anyone's found anything in this thread interesting, I'm having a little two day promo sale on my Zodiac book. The Kindle version just 99 cents. Print price to be reduced shortly:

https://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Mania.../ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

[Winward1]

A post about the Michigan Murders, Zodiac and Thoresen:

Regarding the case of Roxie Ann Phillips having similarities to the Michigan Coed cases and Thoresen living in California at that time and receiving no pushback now when argued to be Zodiac, you will find uncanny connections between certain murders and his movements around the country.

Zodiac and the Michigan Coed Murders to name but a few. Because of this, upon his death in June '70, there is reason to believe a substantial coverup began.

That said consider, when recalling the birth of her child, in early June, 1962, Thoresen's wife said she knew her husband had been going to Los Angeles "for many months." Two months prior to this, in early June, 1962, you have the Zodiac-like murder of cabbie Ray Davis in Oceanside, CA and then a string of murders (some double murders) and the Bates murder.

People get hung up on the letters and ciphers but what actually made Zodiac different? In three out of four attacks he chose to attack more than one person at a time, and in one of them it was under the guise of a robbery where the victims were tied up.

Thoresen moved to Arizona on April 8, 1960. Where from? Chicago. In my books I disclosed that he was a suspect in the dismemberment murder of Judith Mae Anderson in August, 1957, when he was about 17. Consider that I have his hometown police record. I know what was going on between him, his family and the cops in the mid fifties.

He had a particularly rocky time in 1955, when he was 15 or 16. Let me sum it up for you: He was pissed (and not in the English sense.) I know what days, too. So what did Zodiac sometimes do? Attack multiple people (a rare MO for random killings in those days.)

So what happened during this rocky time for him in 1955 in Chicago? Three boys (Robert Peterson and the Schuessler brothers) were murdered, a triple murder. They were tied up. At least one was bludgeoned with fists and, it was presumed by some, at least one of them may have been whipped with a belt like some of the Michigan Coed victims.

When Thoresen met his wife in January, 1958, he had a broken hand. Ten bucks he broke it bludgeoning someone.

Like some of the Michigan Coed victims, the boys' bodies were left near a paved surface where they were soon discovered. Then, a little more than a year later, a similar double slaying near Chicago occurred, the Grimes sisters. According to a source, the sisters were last seen with a suspect who had a strange way of speaking (not unlike Zodiac.)

Thoresen struggled with a significant stuttering issue. There wasn't a lot to the description but it sounds not unlike Thoresen. Like numerous Michigan Coed Murder victims, the sister's bodies were left at the side of the road. The sister's mother was later tormented by a caller who knew details of the crimes no one but the killer would have known. Zodiac was known for using the phone as well.

He moved to Arizona in April, 1960. Three weeks earlier, however, three women were bludgeoned to death at Starved Rock State Park, an hour something's drive south of Chicago. Like at least one of the Michigan Coed Murders victims, a tree branch was used in the assault on the women. Like at Lake Berryessa and the Peterson-Schuessler murders (and, if I'm not mistaken, the Grimes sisters), the women had been tied up. It's not hard to imagine it was under the guise of a robbery.

Police set up a road block a day or two after the murders. A trucker, I believe it was, told them he saw the women talking with a guy and his description is a dead ringer for William Thoresen, down to his wavy, reddish-brown hair. What stood out to police at the time was the witnesses' description of the women.

After Thoresen moved away, these multiple slayings in the Chicago area ceased.

Like with Collins, they put a guy in jail for the Starved Rock Murders. He always denied it and it seems there wasn't much to his conviction. As with Collins, it seemed he had not the motive nor the background of someone who would have killed the women.

He said it ruined his life. They just released him a few years ago. He was like 80. Earlier, they made up some story about not being able to test DNA in his case (sounds like the Zodiac letters.) Yeah, sure. Also, decades after the boy's murders, they convicted another guy for the Peterson-Schuessler case. He denied it. And that one sounds like B.S., nothing more than a story.

Consider this when you think of Collins and what all when on during his trial. Do I think four innocent guys went to jail for murders Thoresen committed? You betcha. Do I think Thoresen committed them all? You betcha. Do I think, after he was killed, this all was covered up (and many more murders it looks like after Thoresen committed?) You betcha. Have I seen evidence that the coverup has continued in recent years? There are examples of it in my latest book.

 

[Winward1]

There is an error in the previous post. Rather than "two months prior to this, in early June, 1962..." I meant to say two months prior to June, 1962...is when Ray Davis was slain. Also, Thorsen was not 15 or 16 in '55. He turned 18 that year.

 

[Winward1]

If anyone doubts whether Thoresen committed numerous multiple slayings in Northern Illinois before becoming the Michigan Coed Killer, Zodiac and a whole lot more because his MOs varied, remember another prolific killer who hailed from Chicago, H. H. Holmes. And all the different MOs that Holmes used.

That's not the only thing they had in common. Holmes lived 726 11th Street in Wilmette. Thoresen, when committing some of the Chicago area's most notorious slayings (Peterson-Schuessler, the Grimes sisters and Judith Mae Anderson) was living at 521 Roslyn Road, in Kenilworth.

Though Holmes was executed 41 years before Thoresen was born, these addresses (Holmes' former home was demolished in the 1980s) are separated by a mere ten blocks, or a five minute drive.

 

[Winward1]

Proof that William Thoresen was Zodiac is the evidence (documents, phone call, laundry line and location) of the Morrision Means killings, which include numerous similarities to in the murders of Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards, who were slain 58 years ago (tomorrow.)

 

[Oakie]

Was Bill Thoresen ever in Deer Lodge State Prison?

 

[CaMan60]

No the Deer lodge Clue does not match with Bill.
Since this relates to the Lake Berryessa victims there are much better clues. The gun was shown to the victim and to prove it was a loaded gun, he removed the Bullet Pack, so they are petty sure of the make and called it a Colt .38. We know Bill owned a ghost gun like it most his adult life, is that why he didn,t shoot it on that day. He didn,t want to have to trash it, or could he sell it ?

 

[Oakie]

No the Deer lodge Clue does not match with Bill.
Since this relates to the Lake Berryessa victims there are much better clues. The gun was shown to the victim and to prove it was a loaded gun, he removed the Bullet Pack, so they are petty sure of the make and called it a Colt .38. We know Bill owned a ghost gun like it most his adult life, is that why he didn,t shoot it on that day. He didn,t want to have to trash it, or could he sell it ?

Bullet Pack? What's that?

Most .38 Colts are revolvers, and would have cylinders with 6 chambers. They don't have "bullet packs".

Colt did manufacture, for a while, some of its model 1911 semiautos in .38 Colt auto cartridge, but these guns weren't very common. They had magazines.

 

[Richard]

The Zodiac killer used four different semiautomatic pistols in each of his four known murders. He used a .22 Auto in December 1968, a 9mm Browning Hi-Power in July 1969, possibly a 1911 Colt .45 Auto was shown to the Lake Berryessa victims in September 1969, and a different 9mm Browning Hi-Power was used to murder the cab driver in October 1969.

In other attacks and murders, thought by some to have been the work of Zodiac, there were different weapons used, but no recovered bullets from later attacks matched ballistics with any of the four original murder weapons.

 

[Winward1]

No the Deer lodge Clue does not match with Bill.

How so?

 

[Winward1]

I mean, yes it was a lie in order to make the victims think he was just an escapee on the lam.

No the Deer lodge Clue does not match with Bill.
Since this relates to the Lake Berryessa victims there are much better clues. The gun was shown to the victim and to prove it was a loaded gun, he removed the Bullet Pack, so they are petty sure of the make and called it a Colt .38. We know Bill owned a ghost gun like it most his adult life, is that why he didn,t shoot it on that day. He didn,t want to have to trash it, or could he sell it ?

 

[CaMan60]

Most .38 Colts are revolvers, and would have cylinders with 6 chambers. They don't have "bullet packs".

Colt did manufacture, for a while, some of its model 1911 semiautos in .38 Colt auto cartridge, but these guns weren't very common. They had magazines.

Okay Colt was a Major supplier of model 1911 colts To the Army and Navy. And if these guns are not in common use , than how did the zodiac have access to one?
Victim Bryan Hartnell asked if it was loaded. The zodiac pulled out the gun from its holster. Took out the Clip and showed Bryan that indeed it was.

 

[Winward1]

Of course, in some TV propaganda's reenactment of the LB attack, they replaced the .45 with a knife that is different from the bayonet Shepard's pathologist believed it had been, which is one of numerous reasons to believe that Zodiac was Thoresen.

 

[Oakie]

Okay Colt was a Major supplier of model 1911 colts To the Army and Navy. And if these guns are not in common use , than how did the zodiac have access to one?

Those were in caliber .45ACP, not .38. The 1911 in .45 is very common.

 

[CaMan60]

Those were in caliber .45ACP, not .38. The 1911 in .45 is very common.

Okay And we know it had a magazine in the handle. In the transcripts from The victim Bryan said. And it came out of the heel, the Grip you know. It slipped put from the bottom. next page he said the bullets were gold and the round blunt tip was gold (which is brass color)
At that time late 1960,s were these handguns mainly for military use ?
And why did he not use it at any other time ?

 

[Richard]

The US Model 1911 automatic pistol was made originally by Colt, but its manufacture was also contracted out to other companies during wartime - in particular to Remington Rand and Ithaca. These pistols were made specifically for the US Army, but were also available for civilian purchase as early as 1912 and through all following years.

Cartridges for it were produced by almost all Ammunition companies. The case was usually made of brass and the bullet was usually of the full metal jacket type (usually copper jacketed).


World War I (1918) vintage .45ACP cartridges.

Note, that it was never proven absolutely that Zodiac had a model 1911 pistol. The Lake Berryessa victim, Bryan Hartnell stated that he was shown an automatic pistol, which might have been a 1911. The pistol was not fired, so no bullets or casings were recovered at the scene. Since Zodiac used different Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistols in two other murders, it is possible that the pistol shown to Hartnell was one of them. They are similar in size and look to the 1911 Colt, and both were designed by John M. Browning.


Colt 1911 top, Browning Hi Power bottom.

 

[CaMan60]

The US Model 1911 automatic pistol was made originally by Colt, but its manufacture was also contracted out to other companies during wartime - in particular to Remington Rand and Ithaca. These pistols were made specifically for the US Army, but were also available for civilian purchase as early as 1912 and through all following years.

Than this is evidence of the gun used. On page 54 of the book Zodiac Maniac we read, "the gunman removed the ammunition clip from the gun and displaying it to the students to show them that it was indeed loaded".
Now to a gun collector this is a cool handgun, so he was glad to show Bryan Hartnell how the ammunition clip was removable.
Bryan said in his transcript, "It looked , i thought it was a Police Automatic. Because it was in one of these Black Leather cases ( holster ). It had a wood edge on it on either side, those are the handle covers".
Colt used wood with their guns until WW 2 when it became plastic. It maybe this was a older gun and a collectors item with the wooden handle, he never really planned to shoot with it that day.
He was planning to use the knife, which is the reason for the black hood he knew he would be very close to the victims.

This is a Colt which is shown to have been owned by a "good friend" and "business partner" of Bill,s . These guns will be sold with the Case which adds to its Value. And he wore it that day on the Left, with the Knife on the Right. So he must be right handed.

 

[Richard]

It is really hard to draw any concrete conclusions regarding what kind of automatic pistol it was, since just about all of them fit victim Hartnell's description of it.

It is obvious that Hartnell was not very familiar with firearms, since he used odd terms in his description, such as "leather case" for holster, "wooden edge", and "handle covers". The proper term would be "wooden grips".

While the US Model 1911 was produced with plastic grips during World War II, it was also produced by Colt throughout its 100 plus year life with checkered walnut grips - as were many other makes and models of automatic pistol.

Police in 1969, were almost all armed with .38 Smith and Wesson or Colt Revolvers. It wasn't until the 1980's that the change over from revolvers to semi automatic pistols got underway nationwide.

If the pistol holster was on a waist belt on the left HIP, it would tend to indicate that the shooter was left handed, but if it was in a shoulder holster on the left side, it would more likely indicate a right handed shooter, since he would reach across his chest to draw from a shoulder holster. All military holsters for the Model 1911 were made for right handed shooters. A left handed holster would have been an after market civilian made item.

A knife could be carried on either right or left side, but would normally be on the side opposite the pistol. Anyone familiar with carrying a sheath knife knows that it would be worn aft of the trouser seams to avoid accidental stabbing of one's own leg.

The medical or coroner report would be a better indicator as to what hand the attacker used to stab with.

 

[CaMan60]

The fact of the victim surviving is a wonder and miracle. Bryan was able to give details of what happened that day. Bryan said he saw the bullet when the zodiac "thumbed " the bullet and the bullets had red caps. I don,t know these term's mean, but it shows the zodiac knew his guns and was able to show them off. And he was not going to shoot a Loud gun while daylight, there at the lake.

I have to agree the gun would be on his right side and the knife on the Left hip. Bryan Hartnell said " He stood up " after putting the gun back in the holster.
Therefore it would have been easy for him to reach for the knife and than handle the knife.