Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

[Geralyn]

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Geralyn. I'm tryin', I swear!

You are correct about the difference between dogs who are trained to alert on aged remains vs non-aged remains. It is a very complex topic- one with a whole lot of value, imvho- but also one with a lot of contention among SAR dog trainers and handlers. Which equals- contention in court.

Personally, I am also a proponent of DNA scent training- and all of it is so controversial.... but anyway- by trying to explain that if the FBI called in specific dogs, then they likely knew what the dog(s) specialized in. That gives us a good idea of what they were looking for. It doesn't mean the dog(s) are infallible- no one is- but it does give us an idea as to what type of dog had the highest probability of success in alerting. Does that make sense?

Oh goodness Oriah, you've been very helpful all the way through this thread and other threads as well. Its also interesting to know that there is some contention in this topic. That might prepare some of us for what may lie ahead, right? I only hope its not *too* contentious in this case.

Yes, paragraph two makes a lot of sense. I understand and can appreciate LE discretion in this case (well, in all cases really)..but as it pertains to the types of dog(s) used in this case and type of training.

I look forward to your future posts as more information and questions in this area come out. thank you again for taking the time!

 

[MsFacetious]

Okay... so if I am understanding you correctly it would go like this...

Step 1. They would initially be alerting to Lisa.

Step 2. Then alerting to a deceased Lisa.

Step 3. Then alerting to ANY deceased human at all.

All different dogs we would guess.

So let's pretend that NO dogs hit on Step 2....
Yet dogs DO hit on Step 3...

Does that discredit the idea or reduce the possibility that the deceased scent is Lisa?

If they don't find it when specifically looking for a deceased Lisa, but only when looking for any random deceased person?

Does that change the odds of it being Lisa at all and increase the odds of it being a random deceased person... as far as the scent goes?

Okay- I'm gonna try and explain this one. It was/is presumed Lisa was kidnapped initially. Tracking/trailing dogs were brought in. Those dogs would have been given a scent article of Lisa's and would have tried to follow Lisa's specific scent; either in the air, on the ground, shrubs, trees, etc. Anything the 'live' scent may have 'fallen' on. They would not be following any other scent, except for Lisa's.

Then time passes. It is suspected that Lisa may be deceased. An HRD dog brought in early on would also be given a scent article of Lisa's- but it would be trained to alert on a deceased Lisa.

Then MORE time passes. A differently trained kind of HRD dog might be brought in to see if it alerts on ANY HRD scent particles.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Much like every odor we scent, we smell different when we are happy, angry, stressed, sick. Dogs can sniff out cancer before it can be detected by doctors, the list goes on and on.

Dogs are now being used to predict when a person with PTSD is going to have an episode!!!

My question (and forgive me if this has already been answered...I scanned rather quickly):

If Lisa drowned in the tub and the water was removed, would the HRD dogs be able to hit on the tub?

 

[writer7]

The water one was discussed

Mine is: if someone's foot or hand, etc. were cut off and left behind somewhere, would there be any 'cadaver' alert on it when it decayed? Let's assume the person was alive when the limb/organ was cut off.

I know that's similar to the blood one, but I wonder if there is ever enough biological material to decay similarly to a corpse, if that makes sense?

 

[my_tee_mouse]

The water one was discussed

Mine is: if someone's foot or hand, etc. were cut off and left behind somewhere, would there be any 'cadaver' alert on it when it decayed? Let's assume the person was alive when the limb/organ was cut off.

I know that's similar to the blood one, but I wonder if there is ever enough biological material to decay similarly to a corpse, if that makes sense?

Thanks! I went back and found my answer.

 

[sherbetjello]

Can a dog be thrown off from a scent if there are perfumes involved, or something like scented baby powder?

I've had that question for a long time, time to ask!

Thanks Sarx and Oriah for your dedication.

 

[Oriah]

When bringing in another dog for verification do they just bring in a new dog/handler or is it through the same company/outfitter (not sure of terminology here) or depends on what is available? As in how unassociated are the dogs?

Verification by another dog should always be another dog trained in the same discipline (and with the same training methods and certification) as the previous dog. Often it is a dog worked by the same handler, but sometimes it is a completely different team.

So for example, let's say I have two HRD dogs- same training, same certification. I bring one out, and she alerts on a vehicle trunk. There doesn't appear to be anything in the trunk- but I'm certain that my dogs alert is solid. So I go put that dog up and get my other HRD dog. He alerts on the trunk also. Still doesn't look (to the visible eye) like there is anything in the trunk. So I call sarx up (different handler, different HRD dog, same training and certification) and ask them to come out. That HRD dog alerts on the trunk.

LE is then going to process the vehicle. And should the trunk hold forensic evidence of human remains- it's going to be strong in court.

 

[Oriah]

Okay... so if I am understanding you correctly it would go like this...

Step 1. They would initially be alerting to Lisa.

Step 2. Then alerting to a deceased Lisa.

Step 3. Then alerting to ANY deceased human at all.

All different dogs we would guess.

So let's pretend that NO dogs hit on Step 2....
Yet dogs DO hit on Step 3...

Does that discredit the idea or reduce the possibility that the deceased scent is Lisa?

If they don't find it when specifically looking for a deceased Lisa, but only when looking for any random deceased person?

Does that change the odds of it being Lisa at all and increase the odds of it being a random deceased person... as far as the scent goes?

Sort of correct.

But first of all, these steps would not necessarily be alerts.
Hypothetical situation:

For example, step 1 would be a track or trail- not an HRD dog. A "my baby is missing, she can walk." So going on that assumption, they would try to track/trail an alive baby. Now let's say her trail doesn't leave the residence- but she's nowhere to be found in the residence, and there are no alerts inside the residence. So now we think she may have been kidnapped- so we take an air scent dog outside the residence and see if we can pick up her scent there (someone carrying her out of the residence.) Let's say no luck there.

Now in the meantime, keep in mind that other intelligence is being gathered using other investigative tools concurrently. And let's say LE has reason to suspect the baby may have died in the home. So then they bring an HRD dog out to see if it will alert on any HR evidence of the baby. Let's say that dog alerts on the mattress in the baby's crib- but no baby, and no visible evidence of anything associated with HR's. So then they go get another HRD dog and that dog alerts on the baby's mattress as well. Mattress goes off for forensics.
Then someone says, "Well, we bought that mattress at a yard sale- the person who sold it to us said it had been their grandbabys mattress 20 years ago. Is it possible that another baby died on it long before we bought it?"
Well yes, of course that is possible- but unless there are physical remains (lets say, a big stain on the mattress that the owners claim was there when they bought it) an HRD dog trained in aged remains is not going to have anything to work with, because they need scent deposit to be physical in nature. Does that make any sense, or have I just thoroughly confused everyone, lol?

Obviously this is a hypothetical situation; and only the way I would work a case similar to this one- so, mvhoo.

 

[Oriah]

The water one was discussed

Mine is: if someone's foot or hand, etc. were cut off and left behind somewhere, would there be any 'cadaver' alert on it when it decayed? Let's assume the person was alive when the limb/organ was cut off.

I know that's similar to the blood one, but I wonder if there is ever enough biological material to decay similarly to a corpse, if that makes sense?

Do you mean would an HRD dog alert to a part of a body? Yes.
That is why we so adamently refer to them as 'human remains detection' dogs.

Human remains can be very, very small.

 

[~n/t~]

Could a stray kitten be the source of transfer for the scent of a deceased human?

In other words, hypothetically, if the kitten came upon a dead body, could it have transferred the scent to a specific location and only detected by a cadaver dog?

 

[Oriah]

Can a dog be thrown off from a scent if there are perfumes involved, or something like scented baby powder?

I've had that question for a long time, time to ask!

Thanks Sarx and Oriah for your dedication.

If you mean perfumes or powders on human remains? No, an HRD dog should not be thrown off by those scents.

However some dogs will be distracted by certain scents on the handler, or in the surrounding environment. Distraction from ALL other scent should be trained out; but it takes a lot of time and effort, and not all dogs (or trainers) are capable of it.

 

[Oriah]

Could a stray kitten be the source of transfer for the scent of a deceased human?

In other words, hypothetically, if the kitten came upon a dead body, could it have transferred the scent to a specific location and only detected by a cadaver dog?

If a kitten came into contact with something like blood or other physical human remains and then, say rubbed up against a wall transferring the human remains to the wall- then yes. But it's likely any kind of transfer of that sort would be noted more quickly by investigators than an HRD dog.

 

[Cappuccino]

Could a HRD dog be distracted by the scent of the kitten itself? I know they're well trained animals, but after all they are still dogs. Dogs and cats...not always a happy mix.

 

[Oriah]

Could a HRD dog be distracted by the scent of the kitten itself? I know they're well trained animals, but after all they are still dogs. Dogs and cats...not always a happy mix.

Nope, not a chance if it's properly trained.

Remember- scent training is scent discrimination.

The dog is smelling thousands of different scents at any given time.

Inside the mind of an HRD dog:
"Kitten? Check. Not what I'm looking for. Another dog? Check. Not what I'm looking for. Pork chop? Check. Not what I'm looking for. Spider on wall? Check. Not what I'm looking for. Trash can with Twinkie wrapper? Check. Not what I'm looking for. Muddy pair of boots? Check. Not what I'm........wait. What's that on those boots? Is that human decomp on the soles? ALERTING."

 

[~n/t~]

Do we know what breed of dog was used and if its name was released in MSM?

Is a certain breed more prone to false positives than others?

 

[Oriah]

Do we know what breed of dog was used and if its name was released in MSM?

Is a certain breed more prone to false positives than others?

I'm not sure if that was released in MSM or just speculated on. Maybe someone has an article somewhere?

Regarding breeds- certain breeds are more commonly used as working dogs in general- but mixed breeds are also growing in popularity. I don't know the stats on false positives breedwise, off hand- but I can look it up for you if it is a FEMA certified HRD dog.
All I know offhand is that out of our bunch, my most reliable is a Heinz 57, lol. Helpful, huh??

 

[~n/t~]

I'm not sure if that was released in MSM or just speculated on. Maybe someone has an article somewhere?

Regarding breeds- certain breeds are more commonly used as working dogs in general- but mixed breeds are also growing in popularity. I don't know the stats on false positives breedwise, off hand- but I can look it up for you if it is a FEMA certified HRD dog.
All I know offhand is that out of our bunch, my most reliable is a Heinz 57, lol. Helpful, huh??

What type of breed is your Heinz 57? If possible, I'd like to look at the statistics if they are available. Thanks!

 

[Oriah]

What type of breed is your Heinz 57? If possible, I'd like to look at the statistics if they are available. Thanks!

Lol, our Heinz 57 is a mutt. I think she's probably half lab/half pit mix, with a little bit of everything else thrown in for good measure. Fwiw- she's retired now- but I keep her stats so I can compare to our active dogs.

Our next most reliable active is a belgian german shepherd.
And after that, currently another belgian german shepherd. HTH.

 

[~n/t~]

What do you make of this video? The carpeting in the room is still there? Why would they leave the carpeting where the dog hit?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/baby-lisa-irwin-surveillance-footage-mystery-man/story?id=14795844

 

[josie1986]

"They didn't need that carpet as they took the carpet they DID need. Maybe the dog did hit on the carpet in their room, but the other carpet was much more of a hit? Is that possible?"

someone posted that in another thread,im curious too....

thanks to sarx and oriah for answering these questions