IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[Dr. Doogie]

Dr. Doogie- Has Eugene Martin been brought up at all in your research?
It is my opinion that Johnny and Eugene met the same fate and are probably buried somewhere in Iowa. But that's just my gut feeling. I was just curious if his name has come up.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/martin_eugene.html

Yes, Eugene's name also has come up in several contexts. Of course, the similarity in the details of the abduction make these two cases linked in most people's minds.

There are conflicting reports from disfferent sources as to Eugene's fate. One source claims that he was abducted for the specific purpose of "starring" in a snuff film and was killed shortly after his abduction. A different source claims that he is curently alive and is part of a loose network of survivors which includes Johnny. Obviously, both reports cannot be true, so time will tell if either is correct or if both are false.

 

[laini]

Yes, Eugene's name also has come up in several contexts. Of course, the similarity in the details of the abduction make these two cases linked in most people's minds.

There are conflicting reports from disfferent sources as to Eugene's fate. One source claims that he was abducted for the specific purpose of "starring" in a snuff film and was killed shortly after his abduction. A different source claims that he is curently alive and is part of a loose network of survivors which includes Johnny. Obviously, both reports cannot be true, so time will tell if either is correct or if both are false.

Ok. Thanks for replying. I am very curious what you find out.

 

[mysterymax]

What difference does it make what Ms. Gosch believes?


I guess the "difference" it makes is that she remains the energizing force at the center of the conspiracy theory.

 

[SnowAngels]

I do not believe that he is dead. I have spoken to people who supposedly are in regular communication with him (in person, not some anonymous person in chat claiming to be Johnny). Based on what I have heard from others, I have a general idea of where he is at and what he is doing to stay hidden. He is in a safe place but is fearful of his safety if he leaves that place. Efforts are in the works to establish that he truly is Johnny (or John, as he currently prefers to be called). Once that is confirmed, then everyone will concentrate on paving the way for his return.

Now, of course, there is the possibility that I and others are being conned. If so, it is not Noreen doing the conning - she would be a victim like the rest of us. And understand - I do not think that this is a con. Again, I do not buy the big conspiracy (going up to the White House), but something is going on beyond a simple "snatch / rape / kill" crime.

Forgive me for jumping in here (I've followed this thread from the beginning, but this is my first post).....but wow. Is all I have to say. Unbelievable.

Which would in itself lead to multiple questions, many of which seem obvious, but also simply may be from a much more "naive" point of view:

1) Why can't he go to law enforcement?
2) He's a grown man now (not a little boy)- what would these sexual predators still want from him?
3) I feel enough people know about this story, if he were to come forward now, wouldn't the publicity/notriety of this case be enough of a "cushion" to protect him from harm? (i.e. perps would be much more easily caught if they were to try to inflict harm)
4) If he truly is in fear of his life this many years later.....this leads to a much much more disturbing scenario that this truly is a highly organized, highly powerful, highly secretive ring that is most likely still at work today.

Just a few observations/thoughts. This is one of the most puzzling/intriguing cases I have ever read about on this site.

 

[youshouldveknown]

What difference does it make what Ms. Gosch believes?


I guess the "difference" it makes is that she remains the energizing force at the center of the conspiracy theory.

And who is that hurting? Like I said before, if someone reports being kidnapped and sold into sex slavery, shouldn't it be investigated? Whether the kidnappers are local or federal government, or just a Best Buy employee?

Now I understand fully that SHE'S saying this about her son, and he isn't here to make such a claim, but people who have made this claim also claim to have seen and known her son.

So once again, just because it's far fetched doesn't mean it's a lie. It also doesn't mean everything everyone is saying is true, either. But at least for the sake of the children who very well could have been kidnapped and raped, I think it should be thoroughly investigated.

Do I think it'll get somewhere? That's a whole other story. I'm with Dr. Doogie on this one. I certainly don't believe everything I hear and read about this case, but until John's found - alive or not - I think the possibilities of what happened are infinite.

 

[Mr. E]

Forgive me for jumping in here (I've followed this thread from the beginning, but this is my first post).....but wow. Is all I have to say. Unbelievable.

Which would in itself lead to multiple questions, many of which seem obvious, but also simply may be from a much more "naive" point of view:

1) Why can't he go to law enforcement?
2) He's a grown man now (not a little boy)- what would these sexual predators still want from him?
3) I feel enough people know about this story, if he were to come forward now, wouldn't the publicity/notriety of this case be enough of a "cushion" to protect him from harm? (i.e. perps would be much more easily caught if they were to try to inflict harm)
4) If he truly is in fear of his life this many years later.....this leads to a much much more disturbing scenario that this truly is a highly organized, highly powerful, highly secretive ring that is most likely still at work today.

Just a few observations/thoughts. This is one of the most puzzling/intriguing cases I have ever read about on this site.

IF Johnny were still alive, I can think of many reasons why he couldn't join the normal stream of life. For instance, he would be uneducated, since he disappeared in middle school, and I doubt his abductors made sure he kept up with his schooling.

Also, he would probably deeply ashamed of the sexual abuse he endured.

I imagine that he would have been brainwashed or otherwise psychologically altered.

And it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he has committed crimes since his abduction -- petty crimes, sexual abuse, maybe worse. Maybe if he let his existence be known, he'd have to answer to a lot of questions; maybe it would mean jail time, and he likes his freedom.

I'm not saying any of this is true. Like you, I'm speculating and questioning. I find it hard to believe that Johnny is still alive, but I've heard that he is. No matter what I hear, though, if he were to be discovered alive, I'd be more than shocked!

 

[youshouldveknown]

Good points, Mr. E. Also, I think the media scrutiny would be just about unbearable. If he surfaced EVERYONE would want a piece of him - we'd all like to know what really happened. And perhaps society just isn't ready for that.

IF what Noreen Gosch suspects is even partially true, and he validated it, can you imagine the life he'd live after that? People calling him a liar, crazy, yada yada. The battery of tests they'd put him through, the interrogations, courts... all sorts of things that would make his life unlivable.

Plus, I think he would be genuinely concerned about the wellfare of his family.

Personally, I'm like you, Mr. E. I don't know what I believe. I'm just following along. I think anything is possible, but at the same time, I'd be pretty shocked at any ending to this story.

 

[Mr. E]

Yes, and we live in a "blame the victim" society. How many people would start to ask "Why didn't you do this...why didn't you do that?" Or even, "How could you do those things?"

He and I are around the same age. Even though I am far removed from the 12-year-old girl I was in 1982, I find it hard to picture a grown up John Gosch...I always picture him in my mind as the somewhat dazed-looking 12-year-old boy he was at his abduction -- a kid called "Johnny." I wonder how I would have handled abduction and sexual abuse. Not well at all, I'm sure. I was very naive and knew nothing of sex. I remember even following Johnny's abduction in the papers, I always imagined him in some sort of Oliver Twist/Fagin kind of scenario -- never being tied up, raped, and photographed. Certainly if I had endured that, I would not be the same person I am today. I can only imagine Johnny's life has been (if he's still alive) deeply altered because of his experiences.

 

[mysterymax]

I keep playing the conspiracy scenario in my head. By nature, I'm not intrinsically opposed to such scenarios--witness the assassination of JFK, for instance. In that case, Oswald publiclly announced, "I'm just a patsy," and there always remained the unexplainable trajectory of the magic bullet. Not to mention the disappearance of the President's brain and the autopsy photos. What I'm trying to say is that there was visible, incontrovertible evidence that Oswald did not act alone.

In this case, there is no physical evidence at all. There is only Noreen Gosch's testimony (and the testimony of convicted felons). The so-called "Johnny photos" of the boys tied up on the bed have been discredited as hoaxes. James Guckert's identity has been tracked down and his age established. He is not Johnny Gosch. The conspiracy theorists, when confronted with that sort of evidence, simply continue to maintain their position while stating that the media and the cops are in on the conspiracy too. Whwn confronted with actual numbers of disappeared and missing children, the conspiracy people simply state that the government has invented statistical fictions to hide its true intent (shadow rulers, don't you know). Add to this strange stew the fact that Ms. Gosch provides a link to Gunderson's website, thus tacitly endorsing him--there is no disclaimer--and you begin to see what rational people are up against.

Further, a close examination of Noreen's central narrative reveals a dreamwork of wish fulfillment and extreme paranoia. A psychoanalyst would have a field day with her, no disrespect intended. Anyone who has been to London and spent some time listening to the "speeches" at Piccadilly Circus will understand exactly what I'm saying.

If someday I'm proven wrong, I'll apologize to everyone here who entertains the conspiracy idea. Until then, people, please use your brains.

 

[Insguru]

If someday I'm proven wrong, I'll apologize to everyone here who entertains the conspiracy idea. Until then, people, please use your brains.

Well said Mysterymax.

 

[Mr. E]

The so-called "Johnny photos" of the boys tied up on the bed have been discredited as hoaxes.

This is not true. One photo of three boys on a bed was discredited, but there is no proof of that, either. The retired detective had no proof whatsoever that the photo was from an old case of his involving boys being tied up in exchange for firecrackers. People are quick to say, "Give us hard, solid proof." Well, the retired detective has no hard, solid proof. Let me see a police report, then I'll discount the bed photo.

As for the other photos, I've seen dozens of a kid who looks like Johnny. His bruises, tears, and clear mental anguish prove to me that, Johnny or not, he wasn't playing a game for firecrackers.

 

[SnowAngels]

This is not true. One photo of three boys on a bed was discredited, but there is no proof of that, either. The retired detective had no proof whatsoever that the photo was from an old case of his involving boys being tied up in exchange for firecrackers. People are quick to say, "Give us hard, solid proof." Well, the retired detective has no hard, solid proof. Let me see a police report, then I'll discount the bed photo.

As for the other photos, I've seen dozens of a kid who looks like Johnny. His bruises, tears, and clear mental anguish prove to me that, Johnny or not, he wasn't playing a game for firecrackers.

Again, I would ask Mysterymax to define what in his mind is a "conspiracy theory". If he refers it to a ring reaching up to highest federal government positions, then I would agree, not too plausible. However, I tend to think of what is currently being discussed here is some sort of local (as in Nesbraka/Iowa local) pedophile ring. In my mind, that is nowhere near a conspiracy theory. I think this could be completely plausible. Sad as it is. Sadder even still if it is still occuring in this area and, inarguably, needs to be exposed and ended.

 

[Mr. E]

Considering the photos of the boys show them in the same room, in the same clothes, using the same bindings, etc, I'd have to wonder how you could NOT see it as a pedophilia ring. What other explanation could there be? Highest levels of government? That seems hard to swallow. Local/state government? Why not? Anyone who has watched the news knows that our government leaders are not lily white and innocent.

I wish that Gary Carradori's (was that the name of the man killed with his son in a plane crash?) briefcase had been exposed. I really think he had a lot of answers.

 

[youshouldveknown]

<i>If someday I'm proven wrong, I'll apologize to everyone here who entertains the conspiracy idea. Until then, people, please use your brains. </i>

the fact of the matter is that a boy is still missing. conspiracy or not, THAT is what the majority of us here on this thread are concerned about.

a pedophilia ring in the Nebraska/Iowa area is another concern. The fact that these two may be intertwined is plausible.

I can only speak for myself, but I assure you that I use my brain.

 

[thefragile7393]

<i>If someday I'm proven wrong, I'll apologize to everyone here who entertains the conspiracy idea. Until then, people, please use your brains. </i>

the fact of the matter is that a boy is still missing. conspiracy or not, THAT is what the majority of us here on this thread are concerned about.

a pedophilia ring in the Nebraska/Iowa area is another concern. The fact that these two may be intertwined is plausible.

I can only speak for myself, but I assure you that I use my brain.

Very well said. Coming here to argue does nothing at all for this case. Simply because people do not subscribe to a point of view does not mean they do not use their brains, and attempting to insult them does little to sway them to see things your way.

 

[mysterymax]

By conspiracy, I mean the information I read on Ms. Gosch's website. Either you're with her or agin' her, and either way you're taking a big stand. If you're with her, you assume she's as sane as Cassandra; if you're again' her, she resembles Martha Mitchell and that's NOT a good thing. I am even willing to accept the fact of pedophile rings--as much as I loathe thinking about them--but this business about the White House and government cover-ups is just too laughable to even be given the slightest attention. I notice that people on this thread who try to push these confabulations are eventually banned from posting here. EVIDENCE OF A CONSPIRACY REACHING ALL THE WAY TO WEBSLEUTHS????? So please, consider the PROBABILITIES, not the POSSIBILITIES, folks. (I mean, it's possible that Johnny Gosch is now living near the Dogstar Sirius after his alien abduction and that I'm a Man in Black, but PHYSICAL EVIDENCE proves otherwise.) Over and out, big brother!

 

[Mr. E]

By conspiracy, I mean the information I read on Ms. Gosch's website. Either you're with her or agin' her, and either way you're taking a big stand. If you're with her, you assume she's as sane as Cassandra; if you're again' her, she resembles Martha Mitchell and that's NOT a good thing. I am even willing to accept the fact of pedophile rings--as much as I loathe thinking about them--but this business about the White House and government cover-ups is just too laughable to even be given the slightest attention. I notice that people on this thread who try to push these confabulations are eventually banned from posting here. EVIDENCE OF A CONSPIRACY REACHING ALL THE WAY TO WEBSLEUTHS????? So please, consider the PROBABILITIES, not the POSSIBILITIES, folks. (I mean, it's possible that Johnny Gosch is now living near the Dogstar Sirius after his alien abduction and that I'm a Man in Black, but PHYSICAL EVIDENCE proves otherwise.) Over and out, big brother!

Bolding mine.
I disagree. It's not all black and white. You don't have to be either for her or against her. I can take what I feel is plausible and solvable from her case and go with that, and I can leave what I feel is over the top. I tend to believe, like Mrs. Gosch, that some of the photos depict her son. I don't believe, as Mrs. Gosch does, that the White House is involved in her son's abduction. She may be overzealous in her beliefs, but that doesn't mean there isn't a grain of truth in there. If we discount it all, aren't we putting aside our ability to discover what really happened to Johnny Gosch?

 

[youshouldveknown]

Mysterymax, you seem to be more concerned with the conspiracy theory than the actual kidnapping case. I'm sure there are other forums that would suit your needs pertaining specifically to conspiracies.

Quite frankly, I don't feel I have the authority to judge Ms. Gosch psychologically, seeing as I'm not her practitioner, nor have I ever met her. What she says is not the end-all-be-all in the Johnny Gosch case. But seeing as she's his mother, I'd say it's much better to work with her than against her in trying to find out what happened to Johnny.

 

[mysterymax]

Yesterday I located the AMW news article on the case and read it from beginning to end. I have to admit, there are certain anomalies that make this case stand out from other kidnappings. The freakiest thing was the plane explosion and the disappearance of "smoking gun" documents. So here's my sleuthing question: when Mr. King was brought up on racketeering charges, was there any extended federal investigation into the mob and its doings? It would seem to me that, as with so many savagely violent crimes in this country, the mob would be involved at base. If there's real money to be made off of any kind of prostitution, look to the mob. Assasinations? Look to the mob. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that John Gosch was a victim of organized crime, emphasis on organized.

 

[thefragile7393]

Mysterymax, you seem to be more concerned with the conspiracy theory than the actual kidnapping case. I'm sure there are other forums that would suit your needs pertaining specifically to conspiracies.

Quite frankly, I don't feel I have the authority to judge Ms. Gosch psychologically, seeing as I'm not her practitioner, nor have I ever met her. What she says is not the end-all-be-all in the Johnny Gosch case. But seeing as she's his mother, I'd say it's much better to work with her than against her in trying to find out what happened to Johnny.

Thank you again! Your words sum up things so much better then I could write.
It's all about Johnny and weeding through the stuff that's been attached to this case, nothing more. And again, making an attempt to insult those who have different thoughts really isn't winning people over. When all one has to debate with is insults, it really isn't a debate, it's more a one-person fight.