Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[UKGuy]

but weren't there some partially wrapped packages found,which some think are actually partially *unwrapped packages? I do recall that somewhere...

JMO8778,
Were there, or had they been placed there, with that as an explanation e.g. were the size-12's formerly in Patsy's or JonBenet' bedroom?

If the reason for JonBenet being discovered in the size-12's was that she dressed herself in them, why not leave the remaining 6-pairs of size-12's in her bathroom/bedroom?

This detail, like JonBenet being wiped by a cloth suggests more than appears?

Also did the gift-wrappings match one-to-one the remaining gifts, or was there an unexplained empty gift-wrapping?


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[UKGuy]

good point.

could be,JR appears to have been involved in at least some of the staging,and who knows what else?
but it's Patsy's guilty behavior,and the rest of the evidence available,that makes me think she inflicted the initial attack on JB.When she appeared on CNN,she should have just been wearing a GUILTY sign on her forehead.she was that obvious,IMO.
But think about it this way...would JR have let her appear on national tv,highly medicated,if HE had been the one that killed JB? There would be too much chance she could slip up on him.He was sitting on the edge of his seat as it was!

JMO8778,
Did JR have any choice, they had to show their face or reap public ignomy as silent suspects in the death of their daughter.

could be,JR appears to have been involved in at least some of the staging,and who knows what else?

I reckon JR may have redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, there are forensic reasons for making this assumption, also this would explain Patsy's lack of a credible explanation for JonBenet wearing those size-12's, since her own explanation was shown to be false, when she was told , no size-12's were found in JonBenet's panty drawer!

I would not be surprised to find out, at a future date, that the missing piece of the paintbrush had been discovered inside JonBenet, subsequently being redacted from the autopsy report.

Alternately can you see Pamela Paugh being told There is a bloodied piece of paintbrush hidden here, remove it when you do your evidence raid?
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[DeeDee249]

I can easily explain why the gifts had to be unwrapped to find the panties. I know in cases where I am giving several wrapped gifts to one person, each box will have a gift tag with the recipients' name, but after they ate wrapped, there is nothing to indicate exactly what is in each box. Sometimes I can tell by the shape of the box, but if the boxes are the same size, (like a shirt box) then no.
So it is possible that there was more than one gift box wrapped for Jenny, and though the boxes were marked "Jenny", PR needed to open them to find the panties she had bought for Jenny.
I also remember PR saying that the presents were in the basement because she said she sometimes wrapped presents there, so they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

 

[UKGuy]

I can easily explain why the gifts had to be unwrapped to find the panties. I know in cases where I am giving several wrapped gifts to one person, each box will have a gift tag with the recipients' name, but after they ate wrapped, there is nothing to indicate exactly what is in each box. Sometimes I can tell by the shape of the box, but if the boxes are the same size, (like a shirt box) then no.
So it is possible that there was more than one gift box wrapped for Jenny, and though the boxes were marked "Jenny", PR needed to open them to find the panties she had bought for Jenny.
I also remember PR saying that the presents were in the basement because she said she sometimes wrapped presents there, so they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

DeeDee249,
But we know that the size-12's came in a cylindrical transparent tube, stacked so you could read the the days-of-the-week. So that should have been pretty easy to spot, no real need for Patsy to open gifts up?

I also remember PR saying that the presents were in the basement because she said she sometimes wrapped presents there, so they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

We do not know that, I reckon crime-scene evidence was simply dumped in the basement.

The size-12's were a significant part of the staging yet Patsy offers no credible reason for JonBenet to be wearing those size-12's, beyond stating she placed them into JonBenet's panty drawer. I know you cannot answer for Patsy, but which is it, they were located gift wrapped in the basement, or they were put in JonBenet's panty drawer at her request?

The issue regarding this is that we can all agree that some planning went into redressing JonBenet in those size-12's, yet Patsy has no explanation for this, you would think she might have some excuse as to why this could have happened, since in the PDI she is said to be responsible for it?

Yet the size-12's are never discovered, only to turn up later, having been found in a packing crate, so both the investigators and the Ramseys know how critical the size-12's are?

I reckon it was not Patsy who redressed JonBenet but John!


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[Nuisanceposter]

I'm either way with the size 12s...either JR found them and put them on her, or Patsy did. There is no way I'd believe that anyone other than one of them put them on her. We know JonBenet didn't because they were not available to her to be chosen to be worn like Patsy tried to claim. They were NOT in her underwear drawer with all of her other underwear (and all of those in size 4/6) when police were searching the house, no doubt specifically looking for underwear in the same size as the huge ones found on the body. IMO, either the size 12s were never in her underwear drawer to begin with, or someone removed them before police checked underwear drawers for evidence, or both.

I kinda lean towards JR being the one who put the underwear on her, due to the fiber evidence, but I could also see Patsy making sure his fibers were on the underwear as leverage to make him comply and conspire ("I'll tell them you were doing XYZ if you don't go along with this" - I don't think Patsy was that vicious, but I also don't know how desperate she may have been, considering the staging and lying and RN indicate a very high level of desperation to me.)

As far as the gift being obvious as the underwear due to a cydrilical-shaped tube container...what if that container was put into another box before being wrapped, maybe to disguise shape? My family does that a lot - we'll fool the recipient into thinking they've gotten something big because it's in a big box (when it's something small like a new wallet) or we'll put something good, such as a really nice new watch, in a boring box, like one that a cheesy clock radio came in. I'm not saying that's what was going on with the Rs and the bloomies, but it's possible.

 

[Ames]

DeeDee249,
But we know that the size-12's came in a cylindrical transparent tube, stacked so you could read the the days-of-the-week. So that should have been pretty easy to spot, no real need for Patsy to open gifts up?


<SNIPPED>
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Maybe she didn't wrap the tube...just could have placed them in a box...either by itself...or with other items intended for Jenny, and then wrapped it. Why would she have wrapped a tube? That would have been hard. I am sure that those panties weren't the only thing that she was going to give her, either. IMO..she placed the tube in a box with other Christmas gifts for Jenny...and THEN wrapped it.

As far as the gift tags go, what I do...is write lightly on the present, after it is wrapped...the person's name. And then make all of my gift tags at the same time, placing them over my writing. So, maybe the gifts DID have names on there...written lightly...(before they were tagged), and being down in the basement, at night...it was hard to see. So, several other boxes were unwrapped, looking for the one that contained the size 12 panties. There is no way that an intruder would have known that those panties were there. And I agree with DeeDee, those packages were not half wrapped..the were half opened. No intruder in the world...is going to go through packages, in hopes of stumbling across a pair of panties. "Gee...let me open these packages...I bet that one of them contains a pair of panties that I can redress her with". The only sort of person that would do that...is a person that KNEW they were there in the first place.

 

[Ames]

I'm either way with the size 12s...either JR found them and put them on her, or Patsy did. There is no way I'd believe that anyone other than one of them put them on her. We know JonBenet didn't because they were not available to her to be chosen to be worn like Patsy tried to claim. They were NOT in her underwear drawer with all of her other underwear (and all of those in size 4/6) when police were searching the house, no doubt specifically looking for underwear in the same size as the huge ones found on the body. IMO, either the size 12s were never in her underwear drawer to begin with, or someone removed them before police checked underwear drawers for evidence, or both.

I kinda lean towards JR being the one who put the underwear on her, due to the fiber evidence, but I could also see Patsy making sure his fibers were on the underwear as leverage to make him comply and conspire ("I'll tell them you were doing XYZ if you don't go along with this" - I don't think Patsy was that vicious, but I also don't know how desperate she may have been, considering the staging and lying and RN indicate a very high level of desperation to me.)

As far as the gift being obvious as the underwear due to a cydrilical-shaped tube container...what if that container was put into another box before being wrapped, maybe to disguise shape? My family does that a lot - we'll fool the recipient into thinking they've gotten something big because it's in a big box (when it's something small like a new wallet) or we'll put something good, such as a really nice new watch, in a boring box, like one that a cheesy clock radio came in. I'm not saying that's what was going on with the Rs and the bloomies, but it's possible.

I read your post, after I made mine. I agree with you!! Either to disquise the shape or because it would have been hard to wrap. I couldn't even imagine trying to wrap a TUBE.

 

[JMO8778]

Maybe she didn't wrap the tube...just could have placed them in a box...either by itself...or with other items intended for Jenny, and then wrapped it. Why would she have wrapped a tube? That would have been hard. I am sure that those panties weren't the only thing that she was going to give her, either. IMO..she placed the tube in a box with other Christmas gifts for Jenny...and THEN wrapped it.

As far as the gift tags go, what I do...is write lightly on the present, after it is wrapped...the person's name. And then make all of my gift tags at the same time, placing them over my writing. So, maybe the gifts DID have names on there...written lightly...(before they were tagged), and being down in the basement, at night...it was hard to see. So, several other boxes were unwrapped, looking for the one that contained the size 12 panties. There is no way that an intruder would have known that those panties were there. And I agree with DeeDee, those packages were not half wrapped..the were half opened. No intruder in the world...is going to go through packages, in hopes of stumbling across a pair of panties. "Gee...let me open these packages...I bet that one of them contains a pair of panties that I can redress her with". The only sort of person that would do that...is a person that KNEW they were there in the first place.

who would 1/2 wrap one package and then move on to the next one anyway? that doesn't even make any sense...finish wrapping one and then move to another,not 1/2 wrap one and then go to another.
I suspect attorney advice was to come up w/ the rest of the size 12's? Also,they might have prints on them...not from an intruder,from a salesclerk,or other shoppers,ppl who pack them or stock ppl who put them out,etc.But,that would be hard to prove that,so how convenient for them.

 

[Ames]

who would 1/2 wrap one package and then move on to the next one anyway? that doesn't even make any sense...finish wrapping one and then move to another,not 1/2 wrap one and then go to another.
I suspect attorney advice was to come up w/ the rest of the size 12's? Also,they might have prints on them...not from an intruder,from a salesclerk,or other shoppers,ppl who pack them or stock ppl who put them out,etc.But,that would be hard to prove that,so how convenient for them.

Oh yeah, I mean...I 1/2 wrap ALL my packages...don't you? And when people say, "Are you done wrapping all of your presents?" I say..."Well, I got them all 1/2 wrapped." Then they say.."You mean, that you have 1/2 of them wrapped, and you need to finish the rest". And I say.."NO, that's not what I meant. I mean...that I take ONE package..and wrap it half way...and then I move on to the next one...and wrap IT half way...and so on". "That way I can see whats inside...and know who to give it to." YEP...pretty darn ridiculous.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe she didn't wrap the tube...just could have placed them in a box...either by itself...or with other items intended for Jenny, and then wrapped it. Why would she have wrapped a tube? That would have been hard. I am sure that those panties weren't the only thing that she was going to give her, either. IMO..she placed the tube in a box with other Christmas gifts for Jenny...and THEN wrapped it.

As far as the gift tags go, what I do...is write lightly on the present, after it is wrapped...the person's name. And then make all of my gift tags at the same time, placing them over my writing. So, maybe the gifts DID have names on there...written lightly...(before they were tagged), and being down in the basement, at night...it was hard to see. So, several other boxes were unwrapped, looking for the one that contained the size 12 panties. There is no way that an intruder would have known that those panties were there. And I agree with DeeDee, those packages were not half wrapped..the were half opened. No intruder in the world...is going to go through packages, in hopes of stumbling across a pair of panties. "Gee...let me open these packages...I bet that one of them contains a pair of panties that I can redress her with". The only sort of person that would do that...is a person that KNEW they were there in the first place.

Ames,

Maybe she didn't wrap the tube...just could have placed them in a box...either by itself...or with other items intended for Jenny, and then wrapped it. Why would she have wrapped a tube? That would have been hard. I am sure that those panties weren't the only thing that she was going to give her, either. IMO..she placed the tube in a box with other Christmas gifts for Jenny...and THEN wrapped it.

Maybe , maybe not, we do not know, and BPD have not released details of any gift wrapping

There is no way that an intruder would have known that those panties were there. And I agree with DeeDee, those packages were not half wrapped..the were half opened. No intruder in the world...is going to go through packages, in hopes of stumbling across a pair of panties. "Gee...let me open these packages...I bet that one of them contains a pair of panties that I can redress her with". The only sort of person that would do that...is a person that KNEW they were there in the first place.

Well an intruder is not any part of my theory, I remain unconvinced that Patsy needed to open gifts that she herself had wrapped?

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[UKGuy]

I'm either way with the size 12s...either JR found them and put them on her, or Patsy did. There is no way I'd believe that anyone other than one of them put them on her. We know JonBenet didn't because they were not available to her to be chosen to be worn like Patsy tried to claim. They were NOT in her underwear drawer with all of her other underwear (and all of those in size 4/6) when police were searching the house, no doubt specifically looking for underwear in the same size as the huge ones found on the body. IMO, either the size 12s were never in her underwear drawer to begin with, or someone removed them before police checked underwear drawers for evidence, or both.

I kinda lean towards JR being the one who put the underwear on her, due to the fiber evidence, but I could also see Patsy making sure his fibers were on the underwear as leverage to make him comply and conspire ("I'll tell them you were doing XYZ if you don't go along with this" - I don't think Patsy was that vicious, but I also don't know how desperate she may have been, considering the staging and lying and RN indicate a very high level of desperation to me.)

As far as the gift being obvious as the underwear due to a cydrilical-shaped tube container...what if that container was put into another box before being wrapped, maybe to disguise shape? My family does that a lot - we'll fool the recipient into thinking they've gotten something big because it's in a big box (when it's something small like a new wallet) or we'll put something good, such as a really nice new watch, in a boring box, like one that a cheesy clock radio came in. I'm not saying that's what was going on with the Rs and the bloomies, but it's possible.

Nuisanceposter,

I kinda lean towards JR being the one who put the underwear on her, due to the fiber evidence, but I could also see Patsy making sure his fibers were on the underwear as leverage to make him comply and conspire ("I'll tell them you were doing XYZ if you don't go along with this" - I don't think Patsy was that vicious, but I also don't know how desperate she may have been, considering the staging and lying and RN indicate a very high level of desperation to me.)

Well i suspect JR for the same reason, as well as with his fingerprints on the tube containing the size-12's, he had a motive to remove the remaining size-12's, Patsy did not! In a bizarre sense , contrary to the conventional theory, it may actually have been Patsy that was caught unawares, and forced , faite accompli, to defend John?

Who gift-wraps presents without knowing once they are wrapped to whom they are intended? That is a nonsense, one of these assumptions that is made, to make a particular theory appear consistent?


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[UKGuy]

who would 1/2 wrap one package and then move on to the next one anyway? that doesn't even make any sense...finish wrapping one and then move to another,not 1/2 wrap one and then go to another.
I suspect attorney advice was to come up w/ the rest of the size 12's? Also,they might have prints on them...not from an intruder,from a salesclerk,or other shoppers,ppl who pack them or stock ppl who put them out,etc.But,that would be hard to prove that,so how convenient for them.

JMO8778,
Similarly who would complete the wrapping of one package then move onto the next one, not having any means to determine post-wrapping, to whom it was intended, other that ripping them open again, duh!


There must be some piece of evidence relating to the size-12's that we are missing, but that the BPD and the Ramsey's were aware of, since returning prior removed forensic evidence is a fairly retrograde step.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Similarly who would complete the wrapping of one package then move onto the next one, not having any means to determine post-wrapping, to whom it was intended, other that ripping them open again, duh!

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing w/ you UK,I agree we can rule out intruder.But neither Patsy nor JR can be ruled out from putting the size 12's on her.Patsy may have wrapped many packages prior,and just forgot which box they were in.Some ppl don't always put a tag on them right at that moment,perhaps she was out of them?

There must be some piece of evidence relating to the size-12's that we are missing, but that the BPD and the Ramsey's were aware of, since returning prior removed forensic evidence is a fairly retrograde step.

well,either that,or they darn sure knew by then that they were fully protected from prosecution,and felt safe handing them over.in any OTHER murder,handing them over would have been PROOF *positive* that evidence was removed from the house...but not in this one.Imagine if Scott Peterson had done that! in that case it would have been a *major,major piece of evidence.

 

[capps]

Wow,this thread has gone waaay off topic! lol.
So,has anyone heard from our great author Laurence Smith lately? Or is he still "consulting" on the Madeleine McCann case? (snicker).

 

[UKGuy]

Wow,this thread has gone waaay off topic! lol.
So,has anyone heard from our great author Laurence Smith lately? Or is he still "consulting" on the Madeleine McCann case? (snicker).

capps,
And you arrived on flight number ? Off topic, when was Laurence Smith ever on topic? The reason for the threads diverging is simply to save on creating new threads for subjects that have possibly aready been debated?

...

 

[JMO8778]

So,has anyone heard from our great author Laurence Smith lately? Or is he still "consulting" on the Madeleine McCann case? (snicker).

I have to wonder what his next excuse is going to be.

 

[capps]

capps,
And you arrived on flight number ? Off topic, when was Laurence Smith ever on topic? The reason for the threads diverging is simply to save on creating new threads for subjects that have possibly aready been debated?

...

Hi UKGuy,it's been awhile since we've "talked",way back when I use to come to the JBR forum on a steady basis.

No need to get testy,Mr.Smith is the title of the thread,so that made him the topic.

Anyway,I didn't come to start anything..was just wondering if there was any recent news on Laurence Smith,and made a tongue in cheek remark about him "consulting" on the McCann case.My feeble attempt at humor.

Take care...

 

[UKGuy]

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing w/ you UK,I agree we can rule out intruder.But neither Patsy nor JR can be ruled out from putting the size 12's on her.Patsy may have wrapped many packages prior,and just forgot which box they were in.Some ppl don't always put a tag on them right at that moment,perhaps she was out of them?



well,either that,or they darn sure knew by then that they were fully protected from prosecution,and felt safe handing them over.in any OTHER murder,handing them over would have been PROOF *positive* that evidence was removed from the house...but not in this one.Imagine if Scott Peterson had done that! in that case it would have been a *major,major piece of evidence.

JMO8778,

But neither Patsy nor JR can be ruled out from putting the size 12's on her.Patsy may have wrapped many packages prior,and just forgot which box they were in.Some ppl don't always put a tag on them right at that moment,perhaps she was out of them?

My money is on John, simply because Patsy was forced to invent an ad-hoc explanation why JonBenet was wearing the size-12's

well,either that,or they darn sure knew by then that they were fully protected from prosecution,and felt safe handing them over.in any OTHER murder,handing them over would have been PROOF *positive* that evidence was removed from the house...but not in this one.Imagine if Scott Peterson had done that! in that case it would have been a *major,major piece of evidence.

Maybe, then again maybe the absence of the remaining size-12's pointed towards the Ramseys, e.g. no intruder would either know or take the remaining size-12's, never mind redress JonBenet in them?

 

[capps]

I have to wonder what his next excuse is going to be.

Ain't that the truth JMO8778 LOL!

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UKGuy,it's been awhile since we've "talked",way back when I use to come to the JBR forum on a steady basis.

No need to get testy,Mr.Smith is the title of the thread,so that made him the topic.

Anyway,I didn't come to start anything..was just wondering if there was any recent news on Laurence Smith,and made a tongue in cheek remark about him "consulting" on the McCann case.My feeble attempt at humor.

Take care...

capps,
Sure I remember, not being testy, just ironic, Laurence Smith who is he, another Lou Smit *advertiser censored* Sherlock Holmes e.g another hare set running?