Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[Solace]

Did I miss something. Do you have that photo of Patsy.

I believe it is the one where she looks nuts at the gravesight, holding her arms crisscrossed over her chest and looking up to the angels.

HOW IS THERE ANY DOUBT ABOUT THIS WOMAN DOING THIS, PLEASE.

 

[Squishified]

Here it is in all it's glory:

 

[coloradokares]

Thanks Squishified She appears Certifiable and as mad as a hatter!! I have that picture I just did not realize that was the one in question. I have had a time trying to interpret that picture. Was she on some kind of flashback to
that night or was that her thinking that JonBenet was achieving more adoration and attention in death than she had in life. Is that agony or ecstacy. I hope I spelled that right. I personally think the latter. I think she also was thinking to herself I was her mother and wasnt she beautiful just like me. God forgive me if that is way off base and intolerably unkind.

 

[Albert18]

...What has the staging and ransom have to do with Patsy telling or not telling John.

Because if Patsy told John right away then it is doubtful he rolled over and went back to sleep. Which means he got up and helped Patsy with the staging and the ransom note. Which means John was involved with Patsy. Which means John could have gone to jail with Patsy. Which means John was betting his life on the staging and the ransom note.

There ain't no way John bet his life on that staging and ransom note.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've always believed PR told her husband right away. Or he heard the scream and came to see what happened. I am sure there was a horrifying scream that was heard by their neighbor, Melanie Stanton. (the one who was "threatened" denying she heard it, then later admitted it again).I am not sure whether the scream was from PR, who realized that she had killed her "living doll" and now had nothing to project her own fantasies on, OR if the scream came from JBR as she was being assaulted (by douching or awakening as the staged assault took place). I do think that although Melanie Stanton was sure it was a child's scream, it could actually have been PR- a woman's scream COULD sound like a child's, and after all, Stanton was sleeping and awoken by the scream, not already awake.
From the moment JBR lost consciousness, adrenaline and panic took over and enabled the Rs to do what they did.
The note, without a doubt written by PR, was staging within staging too. It was staged to look like it was a business associate with a grudge against JR and/or his company while suggesting that the SFF was mentioned for the sole purpose of making it seem like whoever wrote the note was disguising who they were. There was no real need for mentioning a specific place and time for a ransom drop-off, nor any real plans for an child-for-money exchange, because she was already dead and though it may not be obvious to all, that note was MEANT to suggest that she was already dead. (denying her remains for proper burial, etc.)
PR wrote the note, possibly with help from JB- he had read books and watched movies recently that suggested that this was a believeable note.

 

[coloradokares]

Because if Patsy told John right away then it is doubtful he rolled over and went back to sleep. Which means he got up and helped Patsy with the staging and the ransom note. Which means John was involved with Patsy. Which means John could have gone to jail with Patsy. Which means John was betting his life on the staging and the ransom note.

There ain't no way John bet his life on that staging and ransom note.

Also consider that John knew he could not be compelled to testify against Patsy or for that matter Patsy aganst John. That was the hinge that the door slammed shut on prosecuting this case. So it was not with dual the lawyers of the caliber they acquired was not exactly like betting your life. And whats is more it worked. They could not have done a more botched job of remembering the details but they could not be forced to testify against each other.:doh: If ony we had a DA with less concern for his own political backside and a lot more caring for that little girl. That is my opinion .

 

[JMO8778]

There ain't no way John bet his life on that staging and ransom note.

I think he went along with her due to embarrassment,shock,and not knowing what else to do at he moment..he didn't have time to think this one out.I'm not so sure he *did think she would get away with it...in fact I see signs that maybe he hoped she would get caught (separate lawyers,handing the notepad to LE,he took a shower and Patsy didn't,the White's coming over and seeing Patsy (and eventually JB) wearing the same clothes from the night before,etc.).I think he was trying to play it down the middle at first,so to speak.
The RN was in Patsy's handwriting and on her tablet..and he obviously didn't touch JB's staging elements.It seems he had an attitude of 'ok,let's see if and when she can get away with this'.Then he got himself a separate lawyer.Not only that,he also got lawyers for the rest of his side of the family,even his ex wife.I've never read anything of Patsy's side having their own lawyers.

 

[JMO8778]

I've always believed PR told her husband right away. Or he heard the scream and came to see what happened.

me too.
JR is trying to account for his underwear fibers in 2 places...near JB's bed,and near the phone where Patsy made the 911 call.
It seems to me he either heard JB's scream from his bedroom or bathroom,or Patsy went and got him.Actually,I don't see how he could have missed hearing her scream,esp. if the neighbor heard it.
So he was in his underwear at this point,by JB's bed,trying to figure out what to do...perhaps she showed some signs of life...so she's carried down the stairs,her hair picking up some garland along the way.She is placed at the bottom of the stairs,where JR said he'd read the RN.He again checks her.Since she's near the phone,I can't help but think there was the thought of calling 911 at that point.But perhaps those marks on JB's neck from Patsy twisting her shirt collar prevented that...Patsy may have begged him not to call,and perhaps he thought JB was already dead by then anyway.
Whatever happened,she was next carried to the basement,where she of course was eventually found.

I am sure there was a horrifying scream that was heard by their neighbor, Melanie Stanton. (the one who was "threatened" denying she heard it, then later admitted it again).I am not sure whether the scream was from PR, who realized that she had killed her "living doll" and now had nothing to project her own fantasies on, OR if the scream came from JBR as she was being assaulted (by douching or awakening as the staged assault took place). I do think that although Melanie Stanton was sure it was a child's scream, it could actually have been PR- a woman's scream COULD sound like a child's, and after all, Stanton was sleeping and awoken by the scream, not already awake.

me too,and I wonder if JB's window was open a bit.

 

[JMO8778]

deleted,double post.

 

[JMO8778]

The note, without a doubt written by PR, was staging within staging too. It was staged to look like it was a business associate with a grudge against JR and/or his company while suggesting that the SFF was mentioned for the sole purpose of making it seem like whoever wrote the note was disguising who they were. There was no real need for mentioning a specific place and time for a ransom drop-off, nor any real plans for an child-for-money exchange, because she was already dead and though it may not be obvious to all, that note was MEANT to suggest that she was already dead. (denying her remains for proper burial, etc.)

you said it better than I did.
I'm not quite sure what to make of the 'denying her remains' line..either there was a panic-driven thought to get her out of the house that wasn't carried out (that doesn't necessarily mean they would have left her outside the house for long,though),or she was to be left in the WC,and the remark is meant to suggest there is no need to look for her further in the house..she has been KN,and 2 gentlemen are watching over her (both comments from the note).She was last seen in her bedroom,so look for evidence there.And the WC was latched,(by JR,IMO).So the line is possibly a ruse to divert her body from being found in the house,(at least for then).
The fact JR tried to account for his prints being on the walk-in fridge in DOI suggests at some point there was a thought to keep her body in there,possibly until they figured out what to do next.
I tend to think that line was there as an ill-fated plan to get her out of the house though-as in being panic driven and thinking they will never get away with it if she's found inside.And perhaps the staged sexual assault,done so shortly after the head injury,is proof of that...stage it as a sexual assault and get her out of the house..the whole world's a suspect then,not just them.And it would appear to be something a parent wouldn't do.The 'early' comment is a telltale sign,IMO.Why would JR need to account for himself being seen outside 'early',if the bank opens at 9am and there would be no suspicion if he went and got the money then? Just how far was he going to drive to rid of evidence? just some thoughts...

PR wrote the note, possibly with help from JB- he had read books and watched movies recently that suggested that this was a believeable note.

..and he said he had the sound off while watching them...LOL.

 

[rashomon]

I think he went along with her due to embarrassment,shock,and not knowing what else to do at he moment..he didn't have time to think this one out.I'm not so sure he *did think she would get away with it...in fact I see signs that maybe he hoped she would get caught (separate lawyers,handing the notepad to LE,he took a shower and Patsy didn't,the White's coming over and seeing Patsy (and eventually JB) wearing the same clothes from the night before,etc.).I think he was trying to play it down the middle at first,so to speak.
The RN was in Patsy's handwriting and on her tablet..and he obviously didn't touch JB's staging elements.It seems he had an attitude of 'ok,let's see if and when she can get away with this'.Then he got himself a separate lawyer.Not only that,he also got lawyers for the rest of his side of the family,even his ex wife.I've never read anything of Patsy's side having their own lawyers.

My thoughts exactly. Delmar England describes John's role as that of a 'gofer and bystander', which imo comes pretty close.
I don't think John believed Patsy would get away with it all, which is why he wanted to get as little involved in the staging process as possible.

jmo

 

[Ames]

I've always believed PR told her husband right away. Or he heard the scream and came to see what happened. I am sure there was a horrifying scream that was heard by their neighbor, Melanie Stanton. (the one who was "threatened" denying she heard it, then later admitted it again).I am not sure whether the scream was from PR, who realized that she had killed her "living doll" and now had nothing to project her own fantasies on, OR if the scream came from JBR as she was being assaulted (by douching or awakening as the staged assault took place). I do think that although Melanie Stanton was sure it was a child's scream, it could actually have been PR- a woman's scream COULD sound like a child's, and after all, Stanton was sleeping and awoken by the scream, not already awake.
From the moment JBR lost consciousness, adrenaline and panic took over and enabled the Rs to do what they did.
The note, without a doubt written by PR, was staging within staging too. It was staged to look like it was a business associate with a grudge against JR and/or his company while suggesting that the SFF was mentioned for the sole purpose of making it seem like whoever wrote the note was disguising who they were. There was no real need for mentioning a specific place and time for a ransom drop-off, nor any real plans for an child-for-money exchange, because she was already dead and though it may not be obvious to all, that note was MEANT to suggest that she was already dead. (denying her remains for proper burial, etc.)
PR wrote the note, possibly with help from JB- he had read books and watched movies recently that suggested that this was a believeable note.

I also believe that Patsy told John right away. I also believe that the scream that the neighbor heard...WAS Patsy's. And I also believe that John helped with the staging, and most likely the ransom note, too. I do not believe that Patsy could have done ALL of that all by herself. She would have had to have had some help.

 

[Albert18]

My thoughts exactly. Delmar England describes John's role as that of a 'gofer and bystander', which imo comes pretty close.
I don't think John believed Patsy would get away with it all, which is why he wanted to get as little involved in the staging process as possible.

jmo

I've wondered about John as a bystander myself but it doesn't really make sense.

It begins with the question UKGuy loves to ask; why stage an accident to look like a homicide. You don't unless you have one panicked parent. If Patsy runs to John I think JonBenet is rushed to the hospital or an ambulance is called. This is the most important concept in what happened that night and a failure to grasp it causes many people to be IDI's. They don't see how the parents could have done this and the answer is the parents didn't do this. One parent did. That one parent apparently was in extreme panic and did the unbelievable. You can't have this situation if you bring John in immediately. Why would John go along with this crazy idea? What would he gain?

Also there is no such thing as being an innocent bystander when your child is hurt in your home. Step back and look at what you are really saying happened.

* Patsy woke John up and said something happened and JonBenet hit her head and is now unresponsive.

* Patsy then tells John she wants to stage a sexual assault, stage a murder by tying a cord around JonBenets neck, hide the body in the basement and write a ransom note.

* John says it sounds good to him.

There has never been any evidence shown that John is insane or a complete imbecile.

A better explanation is that by the time John became aware it was too late. The deed had been done.

 

[tumble]

It begins with the question UKGuy loves to ask; why stage an accident to look like a homicide.

I like your common sense Albert.
Although I think that if it was not an accident but really a homicide it turns into

"Staging a homicide to look like another homicide"

There are cases when mothers have strangled their own children willingfully. In a known Swedish case the mother strangled her child with her hands in the basement and tried to make it look like a kidnapping. Does it sound familiar?

 

[Littledeer]

As I've mentioned the few times I have posted here, I consider myself a "newbie", and against you guys, I am just born.

But reading Ames, Albert and tumble's posts above, I was wondering the following:

Quite a few of you have been here from the beginning. And the theories still rage on between the RDI's and IDI's.

Have anyone one of you been able to get together and try to "restage" that night???

Not knowing where everyone lives, but maybe even two of you who live close by and getting some interested friends to try the staging.

Wonder what your thoughts/ideas would be then?

 

[DeeDee249]

To answer UKGuy's ?? "Why stage an accident to look like a homicide?"

The answer is simple. You stage an accident to look like a homicide when you have CAUSED the "accident" that resulted in the death.
This is especially true if you are a neurotic, controlling mother obsessed with appearances and all things material, AND if you know you have the money to get away with it.
Doing the right thing- admitting you accidentally caused the death of your child- morally correct but still indictable. Involuntary manslaughter, possible incarceration (maybe in a psychiatric hospital), loss of status in the community, ramifications with husband's company, etc. That wasn't gonna happen with the Rs.
They preferred to take the coward's way out. Stage a kidnapping/murder, then offer up anyone you ever knew to LE as a "suspect".

 

[coloradokares]

As I've mentioned the few times I have posted here, I consider myself a "newbie", and against you guys, I am just born.

But reading Ames, Albert and tumble's posts above, I was wondering the following:

Quite a few of you have been here from the beginning. And the theories still rage on between the RDI's and IDI's.

Have anyone one of you been able to get together and try to "restage" that night???

Not knowing where everyone lives, but maybe even two of you who live close by and getting some interested friends to try the staging.

Wonder what your thoughts/ideas would be then?

Since I am from the area you are all invited out for a staging event. I will admit just to even drive by still "gets to me" But it would be interesting for you all to come see for yourselves. Stand in the McGuckins drive by the House etc. I guarantee you will never be the same

 

[rashomon]

[Albert18]:
There has never been any evidence shown that John is insane or a complete imbecile.

If you approach the whole issue taking possible chronic sexual abuse into account, then for example John had every interest not to take JonBenet to the hospital and also an interest to suggest to Patsy (who could have had no idea about the chronic abuse, for the rage attack needn't have been connected to the sexual abuse) that she stage a bizarre sexual predator scene by inflicting an acute wound (which was to camouflage that there had been chronic abuse too). So both Patsy and John could have had something to hide.

To me, the question whether or not JonBenet had been the victim of chronic sexual abuse is the most complicated issue in this case. The autopsy findings were neither conclusive enough to indicate sexual abuse, nor conclusive enough to exclude it.
For if sexual abuse played a role in the tragic events on that night, then the reason for the head blow could have been something far more sinister that e. g. rage over a wetting/soiling accident.

A better explanation is that by the time John became aware it was too late. The deed had been done.

Definitely possible, but jmpo, I don't think Patsy had the nerve to carry all this through on her own without help from John. Also, don't forget that fibers from John's shirt were found in JonBenet's underwear, which indicates he took part in the staging too, although the rest of the evidence implicates Patsy as the main stager.

jmo

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have also considered that Patsy may have picked up John's shirt and used it when staging the crime scene, then telling him afterward before they called 911, maybe as some kind of blackmail to guarantee he'd help her pull this off ("You have to help me. I used your shirt, and I'll tell them that you were doing such and such and I'll make sure you go down")...but I'm not sure Patsy was that desperate or that ruthless and calculating....or that John wasn't the one who incurred the head wound and then needed Patsy to help him pull it off. I kinda don't think Patsy would stand by John's side and cover for him like this if he was the one who killed JB, or if she knew he been doing something inappropriate with her. Burke, yes, John, maybe not.

What do you guys think?

 

[rashomon]

I have also considered that Patsy may have picked up John's shirt and used it when staging the crime scene, then telling him afterward before they called 911, maybe as some kind of blackmail to guarantee he'd help her pull this off ("You have to help me. I used your shirt, and I'll tell them that you were doing such and such and I'll make sure you go down")...but I'm not sure Patsy was that desperate or that ruthless and calculating....or that John wasn't the one who incurred the head wound and then needed Patsy to help him pull it off. I kinda don't think Patsy would stand by John's side and cover for him like this if he was the one who killed JB, or if she knew he been doing something inappropriate with her. Burke, yes, John, maybe not.

What do you guys think?

NP, I've thought about this possbility too, but like you said, it would require a lot of ruthlessness on Patsy's part to blackmail John into covering up for her.

Considering the possibility of John having delivered the head blow - I find it very hard to imagine that Patsy would have covered up for John, knowing he had not ony sexually abused, but also killed her precious little daughter, the apple of her eye. John confessing to Patsy that he had done all that, and on top of it asking her to do most of the staging for him - again, very hard to figure imo.
I think the only person Patsy would have covered up for was herself, or maybe Burke.

jmo