Identified! NY - Manhattan, 'Midtown Jane Doe', WhtFem 16-21, 337UFNY, under concrete, ring w/ 'P McG', Feb'03 Patricia McGlone

New Posts

Skigirl said:
I just ran across this profile on NamUs and am getting caught up on the thread. I do not understand why LE thinks that this UID died in the 1990s or later. With a 1969 coin and a 1966 watch found with the body, it is practically screaming to me, "I DIED SOMETIME BEFORE 1980!" (though I do agree that Judy sounds like an extremely good match and I am dismayed to see so many rule-outs without her name on the list -- it's been 3 years since her sister reported the potential match and since Judy has living relatives, and since it seems they've been able to do DNA comparisons with other MPs, why is it taking so long to rule Judy in or out?). I mean, just one of those things and I would dismiss it as "she just had a really old item" -- but both? And if she was a prostitute, how many of those fancy vintage watches? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Next thought: Pantyhose? If the UID was wearing pantyhose, I think she died sometime long before 1992. By the 1990s (even really, by the 1980s, if I recall), very few young non-professional (as in white collar worker, not prostitute) women were wearing them except in the most formal of circumstances or if they were forced to (like I was as a waitress in the 90s). They were definitely not something I would have worn very often if left to my own devices. Yet, my mother's generation would have not been caught dead without them in the 1960s-1970s. So, to me, that's another piece of data that suggests to me that this woman/girl died long before 1992. Finally... bits of sequins and such does not, I hope, mean "prostitute" since I and many of my friends have been known to wear sequins, just sayin'!
Click to expand...

Seems like the timeline has been almost entirely determined by the rat poison. I wonder if we should be taking that as gospel. The first paper on "Talon(TM) Rodenticide" was published around 1978 (http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=vpc8). Was there a predecessor product with the Talon trademark? Syngenta currently holds the trademark and there has been a lot of M&A activity in the intervening years, and who knows how good their corporate history is about various packages and trademarks, so I have to wonder if the product could have been marketed much earlier. I know my company barely has institutional memory that goes back five years much less 40, so could whomever law enforcement spoke with just have been incorrect about when the product was on the market, when the chemical was invented, whether there was an earlier trademarked product also called "Talon" or some combination?

I tried to look up the trademark but it's quite different from looking up patents (which I do all the time) and I wasn't able to narrow it down to the right "Talon" trademark. Anyone out there better than I am? If not, I have a friend who used to work at the USPTO and I can ask her for help if need be.
 
Skigirl said:
I just ran across this profile on NamUs and am getting caught up on the thread. I do not understand why LE thinks that this UID died in the 1990s or later. With a 1969 coin and a 1966 watch found with the body, it is practically screaming to me, "I DIED SOMETIME BEFORE 1980!" (though I do agree that Judy sounds like an extremely good match and I am dismayed to see so many rule-outs without her name on the list -- it's been 3 years since her sister reported the potential match and since Judy has living relatives, and since it seems they've been able to do DNA comparisons with other MPs, why is it taking so long to rule Judy in or out?). I mean, just one of those things and I would dismiss it as "she just had a really old item" -- but both? And if she was a prostitute, how many of those fancy vintage watches? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Next thought: Pantyhose? If the UID was wearing pantyhose, I think she died sometime long before 1992. By the 1990s (even really, by the 1980s, if I recall), very few young non-professional (as in white collar worker, not prostitute) women were wearing them except in the most formal of circumstances or if they were forced to (like I was as a waitress in the 90s). They were definitely not something I would have worn very often if left to my own devices. Yet, my mother's generation would have not been caught dead without them in the 1960s-1970s. So, to me, that's another piece of data that suggests to me that this woman/girl died long before 1992. Finally... bits of sequins and such does not, I hope, mean "prostitute" since I and many of my friends have been known to wear sequins, just sayin'!
Click to expand...

The coat label is also 1960s or older. I think the rat poison is the latest definitively dated item.

IIRC the sparkly fabric isn't sequins, it's lurex knit which is very much in line with disco fashion (although I can't seem to find the picture now?). I might be biased because of the Judy O'Donnell thread but I'm imagining her as a disco gal with a secondhand winter coat and a family heirloom ring. The ring shank is broken, which suggests it was resized at some point, which is consistent with it being a grandmother or great-grandmother's ring.
 
sidneyia said:
The coat label is also 1960s or older. I think the rat poison is the latest definitively dated item.

IIRC the sparkly fabric isn't sequins, it's lurex knit which is very much in line with disco fashion (although I can't seem to find the picture now?). I might be biased because of the Judy O'Donnell thread but I'm imagining her as a disco gal with a secondhand winter coat and a family heirloom ring. The ring shank is broken, which suggests it was resized at some point, which is consistent with it being a grandmother or great-grandmother's ring.
Click to expand...

But it's not just the coat and the ring. It's also the coin and the watch. Otherwise, I'm totally in agreement about Judy, and I haven't ruled her out in my mind, but I pretty convinced that we aren't talking about someone who died in 1992.

The sparkly fabric -- it seems like there was a lot of information and there were a lot more pictures floating around at one point, but all of the links are broken and none of those items are publicly viewable on NamUs. If anyone kept those photos/articles or knows where to find them, I would be so grateful!
 
re: pantyhose.

We discussed this in another thread but it's relevant here -- women in the northeast (and probably elsewhere, but that's the only region I can speak to) wore (and sometimes still wear) pantyhose under almost any clothing, even jeans, in cold weather, well into the 90's. It's a cheap lightweight layer that allows you to look stylish without freezing and is especially useful if you need to go outdoors and then indoors a lot. Pub crawling, for instance.

I agree some of the evidence seems to point to an earlier death date, but the pantyhose aren't pointing either way in my mind.
 
jessr927 said:
I disagree (politely, of course!) The slab was poured at a perfect size to hide her body, and I can't think of any reason why it would have been poured in the first place if NOT to hide a body. There's no practical need to build a concrete slab in an otherwise unfinished basement, and IIRC it was behind a water heater or a boiler or something to that effect. If the floor was being replaced or a wall being built, I could absolutely believe that someone took advantage of that and hid her there.
Click to expand...

If there was construction in the area, and it was linked to organized crime as seems likely, they could have been pouring concrete in the area and easily diverted the tail end of a large load to the basement. In fact, sometimes that's how the last of a load is disposed of -- just find someplace else to dump it.
 
carbuff said:
re: pantyhose.

We discussed this in another thread but it's relevant here -- women in the northeast (and probably elsewhere, but that's the only region I can speak to) wore (and sometimes still wear) pantyhose under almost any clothing, even jeans, in cold weather, well into the 90's. It's a cheap lightweight layer that allows you to look stylish without freezing and is especially useful if you need to go outdoors and then indoors a lot. Pub crawling, for instance.

I agree some of the evidence seems to point to an earlier death date, but the pantyhose aren't pointing either way in my mind.
Click to expand...

I'm from NY and I don't know anyone that did that in the 90s, but I guess it's not impossible. Pantyhose, in my circle, were considered hopelessly old-fashioned. Tights came in and out of fashion. But I don't know anyone who layered pantyhose for warmth simply because they weren't the type of things that people I knew had laying around. I'm an N of one, though.
 
Random speculation, imo.
Wonder if the young woman was in NY for a birthday party or other celebration, maybe she was dressed in( vintage-like) costume for
Halloween. Maybe she was a film/tv background worker?

A party comes to mind because of the toy soldier, in the 90's i remember little toy soldiers with parachutes included in " loot bags."

If the rat poison was white and in a bag, could it have been used as a fake bag of cocaine or other drug?
 
This is a fascinating story. Any chance she could be related somehow to Mickey Spillane's wife, Maureen McManus?

Though Italian mobsters dominated organized crime in the city, the Italian mob stayed out of Hell's Kitchen while Spillane was the boss. Often, Spillane would kidnap members of the Italian Mafia and hold them for ransom to raise money for his operations. Although he ran the rackets such as gambling and loansharking, he never allowed the sale of drugs.

It was Spillane's refusal to allow the Italian mobsters to participate in the Hell's Kitchen rackets that led to his downfall. The Jacob K. Javits Convention Center was being built on Spillane's westside.[2] The amount of money the new convention center, Madison Square Garden, the waterfront and the unions were generating for Spillane was enormous, and the Italians were desperate for a piece of the action. Spillane refused to allow the Italian mob to participate, and the New York - Irish - Italian Mob War began.
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Spillane_(mobster)
 
Skigirl said:
But it's not just the coat and the ring. It's also the coin and the watch. Otherwise, I'm totally in agreement about Judy, and I haven't ruled her out in my mind, but I pretty convinced that we aren't talking about someone who died in 1992.

The sparkly fabric -- it seems like there was a lot of information and there were a lot more pictures floating around at one point, but all of the links are broken and none of those items are publicly viewable on NamUs. If anyone kept those photos/articles or knows where to find them, I would be so grateful!
Click to expand...

The freaky thing, to me, about the watch, is that 1966 happens to be the year of my birth. There isn't enough DNA to make a match - not with mine, not with my dad's, not with my mom's. Has nothing to do with *our* dna, has to do with the Doe's DNA - they can't extract enough to make a match. This is so maddening. I cannot begin to tell you the tears I've cried - and here, potentially a match, from so many different perspectives - lifestyle, known hangouts, good dental work, timing, the ring (though it wouldn't have actually been my grandmother's (Phyllis McGrorty -) I could so see her finding it at a flea market or taking it in barter. SO MANY THINGS MATCH. WHY Can't I HAVE AN ANSWER? My God it frustrates me.
 
it was poured like a tomb. I could not possibly disagree more that it was just a pour off. Why there? Why perfectly? why would a dead, strangled woman, be found with portions of inches to spare, inside a rug? Doesn't add up. That concrete was poured very intentionally.
 
There is a pic available of Midtown Jane Doe's teeth. If those are the real pics, I don't think MJD is Judy. Judy's front teeth (8 & 9) are rounded at the corners. MJD's 8 & 9 teeth are pretty well-squared.

Midtown Jane and Judith ODonnell Teeth.jpg
 
is there a reconstruction somewhere of this Jane doe?

Valerie Smith from queens ny went missing in 1981 and she wore lots of gold jewelry along with watch there are several photos of her Bulova was in Queens

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...y-Queens-4-March-1981&highlight=valerie+smith


and also Denise Marie Sheehy but she went missing in 1970 also was reported with 2 gold rings and she is irish I believe both women fit the height both missing from pretty much 15 to 20 minutes by subway from where this woman was found

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Woodside-7-July-1970&highlight=denise+sheehy
 
madamx said:
is there a reconstruction somewhere of this Jane doe?

Valerie Smith from queens ny went missing in 1981 and she wore lots of gold jewelry along with watch there are several photos of her Bulova was in Queens

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...y-Queens-4-March-1981&highlight=valerie+smith


and also Denise Marie Sheehy but she went missing in 1970 also was reported with 2 gold rings and she is irish I believe both women fit the height both missing from pretty much 15 to 20 minutes by subway from where this woman was found

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Woodside-7-July-1970&highlight=denise+sheehy
Click to expand...

Go to the UID's profile at this site on NAMUS https://identifyus.org/en/cases/5703 and select 'Images', you can see a reconstruction there. IMO not a real helpful one, but that is where you most likely will be able to find recons.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 93 more.
Total: 3,790 (members: 94, guests: 3,696)

Online statistics

Members online
94
Guests online
3,696
Total visitors
3,790
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
593,052
Messages
17,980,250
Members
228,997
Latest member
Lag87675
Back
Top