Identified! PA - Philadelphia - 'Boy in the Box' - 4UMPA - Feb'57 #3 - Joseph Augustus Zarelli

[Lore Listener]

I noticed that folks deeply involved in the case, presumably with a great deal more information than the general public/media have, seem to have ideas about who murdered JAZ.

Specifically, in the press conference, the LE representative said:

“The second question is obviously going to be, 'Do we know who was responsible for Joseph’s death?' The answer at this time is, unfortunately, no. We have our suspicions as to who may be responsible, but it would be irresponsible of me to share these suspicions as this remains an active and ongoing criminal investigation.”

This was followed up by the following exchange:

“Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory (inaudible)?

Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.”

And on Gray Hughes’ show, Misty Gillis, the DNA scientist who identified JAZ said:

“Then when I found out the press conference was coming up I cried for another three days straight because… It’s like, he’s been my secret for so long. I’ve known who he was and I’ve like come to terms with his death, and I came to terms the the story that I believe happened to him.”

So, MOO, the people who know the most have persons of interest. It would be easy for them to say, “Given the passage of many decades, we just have no idea who might be responsible, so please send tips.” But instead, they have stated they have theories. Because of the enormous amount of time passed, destruction of records and evidence, and death of witnesses, these persons of interest would have to be on record somehow as being associated with the case, the birth parents/family, or JAZ himself. At this point, it seems strangers, local sex offenders, etc. would be lost to time and there would have been a missing report from someone. Brainstorming, I can think of:

1. They suspect M’s story is true.
2. Caregivers on some record we don’t know about: adoptive parents (including possibly extended family members), nuns/clergy associated with the “wayward girls” home, mom’s boyfriend/husband.

Curious if you all agree that it sounds like someone is on investigators’ radar, and who I might be missing as potential persons of interest.

 

[BD1]

2002 Court TV report CNN

CNN.com - Tossed away: The boy in the box - Dec. 5, 2002

Info related to "M"

At issue is whether Martha, who has a history of mental problems, could have fabricated the story. Her psychiatrist claimed to have first heard the tale in 1989, but protected her client's privacy until she chose to come forward. No notes of that original discussion exist, says Augustine.

"If we had notes, that would be a different story," he said. "If we could just prove one thing about it, we'd have it solved. And if we could just disprove one thing, we'd throw her tip in the garbage."

To corroborate her story, Augustine is arranging to search the Philadelphia house where she used to live. Was the drain in the basement where she said it was, for example, and did houses in that area have coal bins as she described? But these minor details will not seal a case that, for Augustine, has become a life's work.

"I want to get this case to be sewn up as if the mother was still alive and we got an arrest warrant and a conviction in court," he said. And he plans to continue speaking with Martha, hoping she'll provide more details that can be corroborated.

Can I just say it is nuts to me that a mandated reporter did not report a client admission of a child's death? The shrink should have been fined, at minimum.

 

[LeBlack]

I'm not worried about it.

I don't expect killers to be "health conscience" individuals.

I don't believe JAZ was seen by a doctor that shortly before his death.
Eyedrops generally don't stay in the eye for very long.

It could have just been a "thing" or an "anomoly"

MOO Gentian Violet for sure will 'stick' to an abrasion for at least a week (maybe not that long in the eye) I am currently applying it once a week on kittens with ringworm.

It is PURPLE, no mistaking it for blue.

 

[BananaBreaderz]

Yes he did. He was a vet.

 

[Lore Listener]

Can I just say it is nuts to me that a mandated reporter did not report a client admission of a child's death? The shrink should have been fined, at minimum.

I wonder what mandated reporting requirements were like then? I am a social worker and I instruct future social workers, and I know that these requirements were not always in existence and that they are continually being refined and beefed up, specifically because of terrible cases where someone should have reported and didn't.

 

[Daphne1972]

I noticed that folks deeply involved in the case, presumably with a great deal more information than the general public/media have, seem to have ideas about who murdered JAZ.

Specifically, in the press conference, the LE representative said:

“The second question is obviously going to be, 'Do we know who was responsible for Joseph’s death?' The answer at this time is, unfortunately, no. We have our suspicions as to who may be responsible, but it would be irresponsible of me to share these suspicions as this remains an active and ongoing criminal investigation.”

This was followed up by the following exchange:

“Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory (inaudible)?

Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.”

And on Gray Hughes’ show, Misty Gillis, the DNA scientist who identified JAZ said:

“Then when I found out the press conference was coming up I cried for another three days straight because… It’s like, he’s been my secret for so long. I’ve known who he was and I’ve like come to terms with his death, and I came to terms the the story that I believe happened to him.”

So, MOO, the people who know the most have persons of interest. It would be easy for them to say, “Given the passage of many decades, we just have no idea who might be responsible, so please send tips.” But instead, they have stated they have theories. Because of the enormous amount of time passed, destruction of records and evidence, and death of witnesses, these persons of interest would have to be on record somehow as being associated with the case, the birth parents/family, or JAZ himself. At this point, it seems strangers, local sex offenders, etc. would be lost to time and there would have been a missing report from someone. Brainstorming, I can think of:

1. They suspect M’s story is true.
2. Caregivers on some record we don’t know about: adoptive parents (including possibly extended family members), nuns/clergy associated with the “wayward girls” home, mom’s boyfriend/husband.

Curious if you all agree that it sounds like someone is on investigators’ radar, and who I might be missing as potential persons of interest.

Yes

 

[spacedcurls]

I wonder what mandated reporting requirements were like then? I am a social worker and I instruct future social workers, and I know that these requirements were not always in existence and that they are continually being refined and beefed up, specifically because of terrible cases where someone should have reported and didn't.

As far as I know, there is also a bit of a grey area about reporting past abuse, especially when it happened so far in the past. If M was seeing her therapist in 1989, that was 30+ years after Joseph died. I would personally err on the side of caution, but there might not be a requirement to report on the past, especially in their state.

 

[renalp]

Can I just say it is nuts to me that a mandated reporter did not report a client admission of a child's death? The shrink should have been fined, at minimum.

Mandated reporting refers to current endangerment or threats. Admission of past events falls under medical confidentiality. Laws vary by state, etc, etc.

 

[Alleykins]

I wonder what mandated reporting requirements were like then? I am a social worker and I instruct future social workers, and I know that these requirements were not always in existence and that they are continually being refined and beefed up, specifically because of terrible cases where someone should have reported and didn't.

Found this on google about mandated reporting:

Mandatory reporting laws were adopted in the United States during the mid-1960s. These laws were a response to a perceived social problem surrounding child maltreatment, especially regarding the newly identified battered child syndrome

 

[IDK]

I noticed that folks deeply involved in the case, presumably with a great deal more information than the general public/media have, seem to have ideas about who murdered JAZ.

Specifically, in the press conference, the LE representative said:

“The second question is obviously going to be, 'Do we know who was responsible for Joseph’s death?' The answer at this time is, unfortunately, no. We have our suspicions as to who may be responsible, but it would be irresponsible of me to share these suspicions as this remains an active and ongoing criminal investigation.”

This was followed up by the following exchange:

“Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory (inaudible)?

Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.”

And on Gray Hughes’ show, Misty Gillis, the DNA scientist who identified JAZ said:

“Then when I found out the press conference was coming up I cried for another three days straight because… It’s like, he’s been my secret for so long. I’ve known who he was and I’ve like come to terms with his death, and I came to terms the the story that I believe happened to him.”

So, MOO, the people who know the most have persons of interest. It would be easy for them to say, “Given the passage of many decades, we just have no idea who might be responsible, so please send tips.” But instead, they have stated they have theories. Because of the enormous amount of time passed, destruction of records and evidence, and death of witnesses, these persons of interest would have to be on record somehow as being associated with the case, the birth parents/family, or JAZ himself. At this point, it seems strangers, local sex offenders, etc. would be lost to time and there would have been a missing report from someone. Brainstorming, I can think of:

1. They suspect M’s story is true.
2. Caregivers on some record we don’t know about: adoptive parents (including possibly extended family members), nuns/clergy associated with the “wayward girls” home, mom’s boyfriend/husband.

Curious if you all agree that it sounds like someone is on investigators’ radar, and who I might be missing as potential persons of interest.

Yes I think I agree they have a theory they are investigating. Not sure I can add anything new to your list other: orphanages and childrens hospitals. ( though they were investigated at the time) Also perhaps the mother herself and her family members? I don’t think they’ve been ruled out?

 

[BD1]

I wonder what mandated reporting requirements were like then? I am a social worker and I instruct future social workers, and I know that these requirements were not always in existence and that they are continually being refined and beefed up, specifically because of terrible cases where someone should have reported and didn't.

Yes, good question. This article says mid 60's. Do I Report This? Understanding Variation in the Content of State Mandatory Reporting Laws).

Seems like a death/crime against a different person would HAVE to be reported in 89.

 

[BD1]

The Zarelli family was almost certainly Roman Catholic, no? I would think if Zarelli is the surname of either mother or father, Joseph would have been baptized shortly after birth. I wonder if the neighborhood church has any records from around that time. Surely it's been looked into by now?

Might be tough to get the parish priest to release those records. My local parish won't release beyond 1925, even to direct line family. Cops might get them, though.

 

[Kudzu]

The woman and the child were reported in the media way back in the beginning.

Archives-Text Page 1

Philadelphia Inquirer: 02/28/57

Couple Sought in Boy's Murder

Pair Seen Unloading Car Trunk​

This article from 2/28/1957 is excellent. Highly recommend that you read it (or read it again with fresh eyes after the press conference). It just dawned on me why they were going all the way back to 1944 for birth records for the bio mother - they were perhaps looking to see if there was an older son based on the eyewitness who saw the middle aged woman with a young boy about 12 by the car at the site where JAZ was found…. MOO

 

[txsleuth70]

This article from 2/28/1957 is excellent. Highly recommend that you read it (or read it again with fresh eyes after the press conference). It just dawned on me why they were going all the way back to 1944 for birth records for the bio mother - they were perhaps looking to see if there was an older son based on the eyewitness who saw the middle aged woman with a young boy about 12 by the car at the site where JAZ was found…. MOO

That 'boy' was purported to have been Martha who kept her hair very short and was described as a 'tomboy'.

 

[fred&edna]

Yes, good question. This article says mid 60's. Do I Report This? Understanding Variation in the Content of State Mandatory Reporting Laws).

Seems like a death/crime against a different person would HAVE to be reported in 89.

It would "seem" that way but I'm not sure it is/was per the first line. (M was an adult)

A Mandated Reporter is a person who works with minor children or adults with Developmental Disabilities ages 18-21 in a professional capacity. A Mandated Reporter’s responsibility to report suspected child abuse and/or neglect supersedes professional client/patient confidentiality. There are a multitude of questions about when and how to make a referral to Children Services as a Mandated Reporter. The best way to make a referral is by phone. Please contact our agency at (513) 695-1546 and follow the prompts to make a referral. Mandated Reporters identities are kept confidential from anyone outside of law enforcement or a court unless instructed to reveal a reporter by a judge as part of testimony in a legal proceeding in court.

Children Services

www.co.warren.oh.us

and supporting info

Section 2151.421 - Ohio Revised Code | Ohio Laws

codes.ohio.gov

 

[Kudzu]

That 'boy' was purported to have been Martha who kept her hair very short and was described as a 'tomboy'.

I would think the DNA researchers were open to all possibilities of who that 12 year old might be.

 

[MadMcGoo]

ADMIN NOTE:

The following ADMIN NOTE was posted earlier today in this thread and for some reason some members are choosing to ignore it.

"Police said during a Thursday morning press conference that they will not be identifying the boy's parents at this time out of respect for Zarelli's siblings, some of whom are still alive."

What's not clear about the above?

Why are some members disregarding what LE has said and decide it's okay to flat-out name people and sleuth families with a view to identifying the parents, etc ?? This is disrespectful to LE, to the family, and to Websleuths to totally disregard LE's position in this matter.

You can do all the sleuthing you want behind the scenes and in private messaging, but until such time as LE has released more information, do NOT splash the names of innocent people and their families all across this forum.

Post respectfully and responsibly or you won't be allowed to post in this discussion, or you may experience a temporary or permanent loss of posting privileges.

I AM BRINGING THIS ADMIN POST FORWARD FOR ALL TO READ AGAIN.

 

[loveplace]

I would think the DNA researchers were open to all possibilities of who that 12 year old might be.

Agreed.

 

[BD1]

It would "seem" that way but I'm not sure it is/was per the first line. (M was an adult)

A Mandated Reporter is a person who works with minor children or adults with Developmental Disabilities ages 18-21 in a professional capacity. A Mandated Reporter’s responsibility to report suspected child abuse and/or neglect supersedes professional client/patient confidentiality. There are a multitude of questions about when and how to make a referral to Children Services as a Mandated Reporter. The best way to make a referral is by phone. Please contact our agency at (513) 695-1546 and follow the prompts to make a referral. Mandated Reporters identities are kept confidential from anyone outside of law enforcement or a court unless instructed to reveal a reporter by a judge as part of testimony in a legal proceeding in court.

Children Services

www.co.warren.oh.us

and supporting info

Section 2151.421 - Ohio Revised Code | Ohio Laws

codes.ohio.gov

I am an RN in Ohio and a mandated reporter who does not work with children. My professional and legal obligation is to report alleged crimes, abuse or neglect of a child or vulnerable adult whether I witnessed the crime, abuse or neglect or whether the report of same was given to me. If my adult patient told me that a child died in their family's care when they were a child, I would 100% be required to report to the police to report an alleged death. I make reports to Children's/Adult Protective Services regularly in the course of my job if the allegation is about a live child or adult in an urgent situation, and CPS/APS decides whether the police need to escort them to the child/vulnerable person immediately. A psychiatrist's obligation is to the child being reported on, even if the person reporting is an adult and her client. Police/CPS/APS get to decide if the report is true or worth investigating. Our responsibility is just to get it to them.

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3262&context=vlr Page 40 in this link states that Ohio was one of the first states to make MD's mandated reporters in 1963. A Psychiatrist is an MD. It was a 4th degree misdemeanor not to report at the time of that article 2015:/ but I really don't know how she got away with nothing, unless she wasn't practicing anymore anyway.

 

[wary]

The story about the good samaritan appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer on 02/28/57 Archives-Text Page 1

Big newspaper a VERY LONG time before M’s story, then.

I’ve witnessed more than one person with a serious degree of conflating stories—not deliberately lying, but just having their minds pick up bits and pieces of different stories and put them together in new and false patterns.