Oh, I agree with your characterization, UKGuy. But it doesn't change what he SAID. He may have MEANT something else, but this is what came out. Freudian slip, maybe?
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TX TX - Elizabeth Barraza, 29, murdered setting up garage sale, Harris Co, Jan 2019 #6- Latest: Curiousobserver
Oh, I agree with your characterization, UKGuy. But it doesn't change what he SAID. He may have MEANT something else, but this is what came out. Freudian slip, maybe?
SuperDave,
Sounds like JR is playing with words since sexual and innuendo are normally paired. Freudian slip, could be, since many here reckon the case is RDI.
.
otg
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Greetings, BB. Not sure if this will help you, but there is a widely circulated photo of John and JonBenet sitting together at a desk with part of a window in the background:
Attachments
BoldBear, Re:computers - this is from the 6/98 JR interview & references JR's laptop & location:
15 LOU SMIT: So you got up. What about Patsy
16 and the kids? There were various things. What do
17 you remember about that?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: About us packing?
19 LOU SMIT: Um hmm.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: I know we had some suitcases set by
21 the back door to go.
22 LOU SMIT: And the backdoor would have been?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: The garage door.
24 LOU SMIT: The back garage door. What kind of
25 suitcases would they have been?
0128
1 JOHN RAMSEY: They were, as I recall, there
2 was a black carryon, one of those, I remember it
3 was a pop out.
4 LOU SMIT: You remember that specifically?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty specifically. I think
6 I
7 had my computer; I think I had my little lap top
8 computer there ready to go.
9 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was set out the
11 night before.
12 LOU SMIT: When would you have done that?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember if that was
14 before we went to the Whites or after. I think it
15 was (INAUDIBLE).
16 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
18 LOU SMIT: And you would have just left that
19 by the door and then take it with you?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: As we left, yeah. I would take
21 it out.
22 LOU SMIT: It seemed like there was other
23 suitcases in the process of being packed? What
24 were the specific conditions of (INAUDIBLE)?
and this about the modem line:
20 LOU SMIT: How many phones do you have in
21 the house?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had several. Some of
23 them didn't work. We had one in the solarium, we
24 had one in the kitchen, one back here.
25 LOU SMIT: All extensions?
0149
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. In terms of the number
2 of phone lines, I think we had two. I had two. I
3 think there was one that came out of here for the
4 computer modem. It wasn't part of the rest of the
5 house system. There is one here in the study.
6 There's one in the basement
7 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one jack here but it
9 didn't work. I think there was phone in Patsy's
10 room. But that was it.
11 LOU SMIT: But just two lines basically other
12 than the modem line, or does that make it three?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Just a modem line and three
14 phone lines.
and from the 6/98 Patsy interview:
20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number
21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask
22 it another way. Are there other phone lines
23 into the house, do you have more than one
24 number?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't
0052
1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's
2 office. And the computer, although we never go
3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't
4 know. I think it's just one.
5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a
6 second for the fax and the computer or the
7 modem?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't
9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems
10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and
11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on
12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons
13 set or something but that was the previous
14 owners that had that put in.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge just the one line?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had
from the 12/29/96 search warrant: December 28, 1996 a computer, monitor, mouse, printer, etc. found in the play room area on the second floor and a modem near the computer.[FONT=&]tment was helping in the search of the Ramsey residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he saw a modem near the computer that was in the play room area of the residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he saw a manual on Compuserve and Compuserve discs located in the office of the Ramsey residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he has several years experience in the operation of computers an that he has five years experience as a consultant in the use of computers, software, and the Internet. He further stated that, using his personal computer, he found that John Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado was a subscriber to Compuserve. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that Compuserve is a company that provides access to the Internet[/FONT]
20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number
21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask
22 it another way. Are there other phone lines
23 into the house, do you have more than one
24 number?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't
0052
1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's
2 office. And the computer, although we never go
3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't
4 know. I think it's just one.
5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a
6 second for the fax and the computer or the
7 modem?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't
9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems
10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and
11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on
12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons
13 set or something but that was the previous
14 owners that had that put in.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge just the one line?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had
from the 12/29/96 search warrant: December 28, 1996 a computer, monitor, mouse, printer, etc. found in the play room area on the second floor and a modem near the computer.[FONT=&]tment was helping in the search of the Ramsey residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he saw a modem near the computer that was in the play room area of the residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he saw a manual on Compuserve and Compuserve discs located in the office of the Ramsey residence. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that he has several years experience in the operation of computers an that he has five years experience as a consultant in the use of computers, software, and the Internet. He further stated that, using his personal computer, he found that John Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado was a subscriber to Compuserve. Officer Yamaguchi told Your Affiant that Compuserve is a company that provides access to the Internet[/FONT]
icedtea4me
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http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=95420&d=1464301238
It's John and his call girl.
It's John and his call girl.
questfortrue
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Wow, a detailed response to my 4 month old post!
I’ve said before there are three things I’m sure about - that JB endured prior sexual abuse, that Patsy wrote the note, and that there was no intruder.
About Beckner -
Yes, how does Beckner infer it’s staging vs. an actual assault? Here are his words from the AMA - "While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad." Beckner goes on to say that "because it (the sexual assault) occurred while she was unconscious, it just didn't seem to fit the totality of the circumstances. Remember, she was hit on the head first, hard enough to render her unconscious. Then there was the staging of a kidnapping. Why do that if the motive is purely sexual?"
While I can’t prove it, I do believe Beckner’s theory differs from Kolar’s. Either 1) there’s a child with an aberant vindictive fetish to molest. Or 2) there’s a parent wishing to create a fresh injury to cover up past abuse. And, of course, one can always say that Beckner was just being politically correct.
Gloves-
I disagree on someone wearing gloves not being able to make knots. The two sailors I know and several alpinist friends are very adept at tying knots while wearing gloves, in subzero freezing weather, horrendous wind conditions and rough seas.
(Here’s an ad for sailor gloves:.
Gill Helmsman Waterproof Gloves
Used for sailing and features-
Waterproof breathable liner
Exceptional warmth and durability
Excellent grip and dexterity)
However one interprets the True Bills, the GJ had to have reached their decision on the basis of something other than tDNA testing which wasn’t done until 2007/2008. And WRT the GJ, the certainty that BR did it all was not actually a slam-dunk conclusion, if one wants to believe John Douglas. After he made his presentation to the GJ he states in his book Law and Disorder: I recall one member asking me something like, “What if we told you there was evidence that two people were involved in this crime?”
“I’ve investigated and testified in cases in which I thought there were two people involved,” I replied, “but I don’t see it here.” Then I added, “But if you actually have the evidence you mention, then why am I here? Why are you talking to me? Go with your evidence.”
The mention of fibers found in incriminating places was not meant to imply one way or the other that the adult Rs were responsible for JB's death. The fibers do imply connection to the staged crime scene and could have added to evidence for an obstruction of justice charge. That's as far as I go about the fibers, except it's my personal hunch that the fiber discussion during the 2000 interviews struck a nerve with JR.
About Kolar's theory -
Kolar is a real Mensch, courageous, intelligent and one of JonBenét’s heroes. He may have it all correct. But, simply put, I have never been comfortable with a definite conclusion using the clues we’ve been given. Even Kolar didn’t want to stop; he wanted to subpoena medical records, ask BR some questions at a GJ. But he was shut down. Now Beckner claims that the only way the case can be solved is from a confession. A confession which I believe will occur at the end of time.
questfortrue,
Better late than never ...
Beckner offers no rationale for suggesting that JonBenet's internal injury was staging. The internal injury he refers to as vaginal trauma which I understand to be a BPD term for sexual assault, the latter a phrase the R's did not wish to hear communicated in public.
What Beckner does not explicitly eliminate is the possibility that JonBenet was acutely sexually assaulted and that what he refers to as vaginal trauma was an attempt to stage it away, i.e. not digital, q.v. Meyer, but instrumental via paintbrush?
Also Beckner's reasoning appears a bit flaky: Then there was the staging of a kidnapping. Why do that if the motive is purely sexual?", why fake a sexual assault if you simply wish to kill JonBenet, why abduct her if you wish to kill her, why was a garrote constructed to asphyxiate JonBenet, a pillow or hands were adequate, Beckner appears to have the cart before the horse?
It does, because he does not have a coherent theory, since the past abuse might include an acute sexual assault. Kolar offers a more constructive theory, he might be wrong, but at least its open to criticism, not something I can say about Beckner's theory.
Gloves: are a moot point, since a stager may have worn them.
GJ: There were patently three people involved, never mind two, and the GJ knew that, similarly for most RDI theorists? The question and answers were likely teasers and John Douglas would have known that. That the GJ indicted JR and PR on an evidential basis that is unknown to me, demonstrates Douglas' point.
Thats how we can infer it was the parents who did the staging. Also why one person did it all!
The case has been solved, from the day Hunter decided not to present the true bills for due legal process.
JR might leave a deathbed confession for us to read, BR might have a nervous breakdown and present himself to some priest so to confess, etc. Who knows what will turn up?
Once JR leaves this world it will be open season on the JonBenet case, just watch for all those willing to do interviews.
.
Teresa
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I am in the camp that believes JonBenet's head struck an object rather than an object struck her head. The injury seems to be a low velocity/high pressure wound to me, which is often seen in blunt force trauma where the person injured strikes an immovable object
I believe this too.
I believe this too.
questfortrue
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:bump:
Bumping this thread to respond to Ms. Josie who asked questions on the members theories thread. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?20426-Members-Theories&p=12811932#post12811932
1) IIRC, his first wife filed for divorce in about 1977. His first daughter Beth, who died in 1992, was about 8 when JR left the home; second daughter was about 5. He had a collage of Beths photos in his bathroom in Boulder and a poem he wrote to her describing how she was growing up and becoming a woman. It pings a little on the hinky side, but no indication from his ex-wife of JR ever having been inappropriate with the children. Besides the fact that she had received financial support from him, she would never want to disgrace her ex for her childrens sake alone. Plus, her mother had married JRs father in the early 80s. JR's older children said he was a gentle father, not abusive.*
2) Yes, apparently they have family reunions.
3) The basement had a vent opening near the boiler. The living room had a window which had been cut to provide an opening for Christmas extension cords. Investigators tested how sounds were carried in the home. They determined that a basement scream could indeed be heard in the adults third floor bedroom.
*JR had a cut-throat/shadow side which some of his business associates confirmed. Of course, friends and employees also became subject to his accusatory innuendos, and he became extremely vindictive towards FW. (PR also had some anger she rarely exposed in front of anyone, but it is evident in her exchange with Haney.)
One interesting aspect to JRs personality is that he usually had someone else perform the actions which he did not wish to handle. Examples include the housekeeper saying that PRs main job was to keep the kids from annoying him; PR handling the fatal attraction woman; PR obtaining money from her father to keep the business going; JS (a past AG employee) handling the firing of Patsys family in Atlanta when the CFO told JR it looked like nepotism. However, he could on occasion be the forceful CEO type who really took over the handling of emergencies - the bathroom flood before a home tour and, of course, the hiring of lawyers, investigators, etc. Some of their background is in the Bonita papers- http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm
Photo of JR about to flatten the photographer who took his picture outside of Pasta Jay's. He was stopped by his attorney friend MB.
Bumping this thread to respond to Ms. Josie who asked questions on the members theories thread. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?20426-Members-Theories&p=12811932#post12811932
1) IIRC, his first wife filed for divorce in about 1977. His first daughter Beth, who died in 1992, was about 8 when JR left the home; second daughter was about 5. He had a collage of Beths photos in his bathroom in Boulder and a poem he wrote to her describing how she was growing up and becoming a woman. It pings a little on the hinky side, but no indication from his ex-wife of JR ever having been inappropriate with the children. Besides the fact that she had received financial support from him, she would never want to disgrace her ex for her childrens sake alone. Plus, her mother had married JRs father in the early 80s. JR's older children said he was a gentle father, not abusive.*
2) Yes, apparently they have family reunions.
3) The basement had a vent opening near the boiler. The living room had a window which had been cut to provide an opening for Christmas extension cords. Investigators tested how sounds were carried in the home. They determined that a basement scream could indeed be heard in the adults third floor bedroom.
*JR had a cut-throat/shadow side which some of his business associates confirmed. Of course, friends and employees also became subject to his accusatory innuendos, and he became extremely vindictive towards FW. (PR also had some anger she rarely exposed in front of anyone, but it is evident in her exchange with Haney.)
One interesting aspect to JRs personality is that he usually had someone else perform the actions which he did not wish to handle. Examples include the housekeeper saying that PRs main job was to keep the kids from annoying him; PR handling the fatal attraction woman; PR obtaining money from her father to keep the business going; JS (a past AG employee) handling the firing of Patsys family in Atlanta when the CFO told JR it looked like nepotism. However, he could on occasion be the forceful CEO type who really took over the handling of emergencies - the bathroom flood before a home tour and, of course, the hiring of lawyers, investigators, etc. Some of their background is in the Bonita papers- http://www.acandyrose.com/1999-BonitaPapers.htm
Photo of JR about to flatten the photographer who took his picture outside of Pasta Jay's. He was stopped by his attorney friend MB.1. Both the sexual violation and actual strangulation/killing occurred well after the severe head injury. While an accidental head injury is certainly plausible, very few parents would actually kill off a severely injured child that was still alive, for whatever reason. Note that the parents were not medical experts, and could not know how severe the injury was. (The skull damage wasn't even visible, as the skin wasn't broken.) All they would know was that their daughter was still alive. Meaning an immediate call or trip to the hospital would've been the obvious choice.
2. Even if the Ramseys were somehow willing to kill off their daughter through strangulation, it is even more unlikely they would sexually violate her in the process. How many parents could do this, simply to further a theory?
3. Even if one of the parents were sick enough to do this, it is highly unlikely that both would be willing to do so, or participate in a cover up of such activity.
4. If the intent of the parents was to stage a fake abduction/murder, it would obviously have made far more sense for them to take the body somewhere outside the home, to make the fake abduction plausible. If they were cold enough about JBR's death to strangle and sexually violate her, then they could easily take her body somewhere a few miles away where it could be soon found, and then properly buried.
5. The parents writing a ransom note made no sense, especially on an in-house writing pad, especially if the body was going to be left in the house. They must have known this would be too risky. Even if PR was dumb enough to do this, JR wouldn't have let her.
I'm not saying that an outside intruder killed JBR, because that would violate the nonsensical rules of this form. I'm just saying it's highly unlikely anyone in the Ramsey family did. It would appear more likely that someone wanted to hurt the family, and even point the finger of suspicion at them.
Basically, if the Ramseys were involved in the murder, and alleged staging, it's pretty clear that they not only were sick and malicious, but were actually trying to get caught. Which would be a highly unusual dynamic.
2. Even if the Ramseys were somehow willing to kill off their daughter through strangulation, it is even more unlikely they would sexually violate her in the process. How many parents could do this, simply to further a theory?
3. Even if one of the parents were sick enough to do this, it is highly unlikely that both would be willing to do so, or participate in a cover up of such activity.
4. If the intent of the parents was to stage a fake abduction/murder, it would obviously have made far more sense for them to take the body somewhere outside the home, to make the fake abduction plausible. If they were cold enough about JBR's death to strangle and sexually violate her, then they could easily take her body somewhere a few miles away where it could be soon found, and then properly buried.
5. The parents writing a ransom note made no sense, especially on an in-house writing pad, especially if the body was going to be left in the house. They must have known this would be too risky. Even if PR was dumb enough to do this, JR wouldn't have let her.
I'm not saying that an outside intruder killed JBR, because that would violate the nonsensical rules of this form. I'm just saying it's highly unlikely anyone in the Ramsey family did. It would appear more likely that someone wanted to hurt the family, and even point the finger of suspicion at them.
Basically, if the Ramseys were involved in the murder, and alleged staging, it's pretty clear that they not only were sick and malicious, but were actually trying to get caught. Which would be a highly unusual dynamic.
Tobiano8th
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honestly, there are all kinds of holes in both RDI and non-RDI.... either takes a massive leap of faith. so i do agree with your arguments........ but it's either RDI or non-RDI
would an intruder take the time to write that note?.....
why write a kidnapping note when there was no kidnapping? has that ever happened in any other case? ever?
it does seem bizarre the R's wouldn't have just phoned for help, esp. if BDI, which alot of people seem to think
would an intruder take the time to write that note?.....
why write a kidnapping note when there was no kidnapping? has that ever happened in any other case? ever?
it does seem bizarre the R's wouldn't have just phoned for help, esp. if BDI, which alot of people seem to think
icedtea4me
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To those of you who may want to ask, let me address very directly, I did not kill my daughter, JonBenet. There have also been innuendoes that she has been or was sexually molested. I can tell you those were the most hurtful innuendoes to us as a family. They are totally false. JonBenet and I had a very close relationship, I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life.
05011997ramseymediainterview.htm
To those of you who may want to ask, let me address very directly, I did not kill my daughter, JonBenet. Uh.. There have also been innuendoes that she has has been or was sexually molested. I can tell you those were the most hurtful uh..innuendoes uh..to us as a family. Uh..They are totally false. Uh..JonBenI..JonBenet and I had a very close uh..relationship. Uh..I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life. [icedtea4me's transcription]
I still maintain that if John had maintained proper distance, then he wouldn't have made the JonBenI slip.
Rain on my Parade
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What stands out to me is JR is shaking his head ‘yes’ when he states “I did not kill JB”.
The coroner states in his autopsy report that JonBenet was killed by strangulation.
Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature knotting.
How many members think Patsy simply constructed the ligature device then told John to finish JonBenet off?
Patsy is patently not staging for herself given the forensic evidence she leaves in the wine-cellar.
Why should John, at Patsy's behest, take JonBenet's life, and leave himself a hostage to fortune?
.
Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature knotting.
How many members think Patsy simply constructed the ligature device then told John to finish JonBenet off?
Patsy is patently not staging for herself given the forensic evidence she leaves in the wine-cellar.
Why should John, at Patsy's behest, take JonBenet's life, and leave himself a hostage to fortune?
.
Rain on my Parade
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UKGuy,
I believe I am having a moment of clarity about this crime.
Weren’t the fibers found in the ligature, paint tray, white blanket and duct tape, red & black? PR walked out of her home with her previous nights party cloths on. Yet the sweater/jacket wasn’t handed over to the BPD for another year. All the while the scarf left on the wet bar (black and red) wasn’t taken into evidence.
LINDA WILCOX: Okay, first and foremost, the major...Patsy's major job was to make sure nobody annoyed John. One of the things that really annoyed him was lots of noises, you know, (couldn't understand) noises, things like that. One day, I was there, it was during the summer, so Patsy and the kids were in Michigan, it was the summer of '95, probably June or July, I was in the master bedroom, upstairs, on the 3rd floor, vacuuming the floor, which was my job. I was finishing up. John Ramsey had come in during that time, probably through the garage, went up the stairs, turned off the vacuum, turned around and walked away.
PETER BOYLES: He didn't say anything to you?
LINDA WILCOX: Not a word.
PETER BOYLES: Just turned it off and walked away?
LINDA WILCOX: The look on his face said it all.
PETER BOYLES: What were you doing, other than your job?
LINDA WILCOX: Nothing, I was vacuuming the floor.
PETER BOYLES: And he came over, turned off the vac, didn't say anything to you and walked away.
LINDA WILCOX: Right. He didn't like the sound of the vacuum.
Linda Arndt reports that JR was cordial that morning. She also states they had a nonverbal exchange and in that moment she knew who killed JB.
BR hit JB over the head. JR gave directives. PR followed those instructions to the letter.
icedtea4me
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From the note: Speaking to anyone, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.
Translation: We couldn't tell anyone as to how JonBenet received the blow to her skull, so we did damage to her neck.
<snip>
Perhaps JonBenet's life was ransomed to pay for John and Patsy's sins.
Rain on my Parade,
Yes, many think Burke panicked by whacking JonBenet on the head to prevent her telling Patsy?
Burke wrt the therapy situation might have been told how he was expected to behave, etc.
Except left to their own devices the children wanted to repeat Christmas Eve all over again, and JonBenet did not want to play?
.
I also think the comments of... bring an adequate size attaché... And don't try to grow a brain John.. are very reminiscent of something PR would say to JR. That's just my opinion of course but the ransom note does seem to have personal stabs at JR that could only come from somebody who intimately knew him.
To me it is like direct insults to JR are mixed in the message.
ETA.. sorry had to add corrections and say please bare with me as I am forced to use speech to text due to a recent hand surgery.