Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

[tsitra01]

There were no pamphlets. Somehow I imagine Geevee is trying to read whatever can be seen inside the bag, hoping it relates to her CVS purchase on June 3rd. (???)

I see. After following the trial and all the work so many of you have done I find myself wanting to know that the is having a very difficult time and is paying heavily for what she has done. I hope a big pile of Carmelized onions will be the only thing she can look forward to for many years ahead.

 

[Wing Ding]

I believe this is a pic from Travis' garage trash can, a while ago we tried to figure out what was in the CVS bag, appears to be pamphlets, figured since the subject has come up again I'd post it up for anyone who cares to magnify/stare at it:

Pamphlets, pamphlets, pamphlets. What is it about [#] and pamphlets?

Did she ever grab a handful of pamphlets for herself about, oh I dunno... getting a job?

 

[Wing Ding]

Wouldn't Flores have checked into when the last purchases Travis made were and for what?

He (Flores) may have. The CVS bag and the contents within could have been from either of Travis' two roommates and we never heard about it either way. Afterall, five days went by between when Travis was murdered and when the investigation began. The contents in the trash bag may have been one or two days worth of garbage, not a week or more.

But I agree that # wouldn't have thrown away anything that she'd bought at CVS in Pasadena, CA on June 3rd at Travis' house in Mesa, AR on June 4th. Probably.

I do wonder, though... could scanning the bar code on an item's packaging (such as sunscreen or KY lube ) tell you when and where the item was purchased, or is that info only available in the store's system where it was purchased? Like if #She bought sunscreen at a CVS in Pasadena and tried returning it at a CVS in Mesa, would scanning the barcode on the package tell the customer service employee the item's purchase history?

 

[TexMex]

He (Flores) may have. The CVS bag and the contents within could have been from either of Travis' two roommates and we never heard about it either way. Afterall, five days went by between when Travis was murdered and when the investigation began. The contents in the trash bag may have been one or two days worth of garbage, not a week or more.

But I agree that # wouldn't have thrown away anything that she'd bought at CVS in Pasadena, CA on June 3rd at Travis' house in Mesa, AR on June 4th. Probably.

I do wonder, though... could scanning the bar code on an item's packaging (such as sunscreen or KY lube ) tell you when and where the item was purchased, or is that info only available in the store's system where it was purchased? Like if #She bought sunscreen at a CVS in Pasadena and tried returning it at a CVS in Mesa, would scanning the barcode on the package tell the customer service employee the item's purchase history?

Very true about the trash. Mimi called 911 at 10:27pm on June 9 so it's very likely most trash from June 4 was gone by then and the cvs bag was from a roommate. Isn't Enrique a diabetic, IIRC? If so, he likely was a pretty good customer at a local pharmacy

 

[geevee]

There were no pamphlets. Somehow I imagine Geevee is trying to read whatever can be seen inside the bag, hoping it relates to her CVS purchase on June 3rd. (???)

You know me, I live on hope.

 

[geevee]

She kept the CVS receipt, so nothing she threw away (if she did) would have location or date linked to her, but wouldn't it be interesting if the bag contained the packaging for, say...OTC medications?

That was my wish to see.

 

[LinasK]

He (Flores) may have. The CVS bag and the contents within could have been from either of Travis' two roommates and we never heard about it either way. Afterall, five days went by between when Travis was murdered and when the investigation began. The contents in the trash bag may have been one or two days worth of garbage, not a week or more.

But I agree that # wouldn't have thrown away anything that she'd bought at CVS in Pasadena, CA on June 3rd at Travis' house in Mesa, AR on June 4th. Probably.

I do wonder, though... could scanning the bar code on an item's packaging (such as sunscreen or KY lube ) tell you when and where the item was purchased, or is that info only available in the store's system where it was purchased? Like if #She bought sunscreen at a CVS in Pasadena and tried returning it at a CVS in Mesa, would scanning the barcode on the package tell the customer service employee the item's purchase history?

Not sure. I know Kohl's Cash works that way if someone tries to redeem it at another store and they've already used it elsewhere, but on the actual items- I thought the UPC/SKN number was specific to the item, not the store. I didn't handle returns. We'd need someone who worked in Customer Service to answer.

 

[b_lab7410]

There is a difference, though, in the Mormon's prohibition against premarital sex. No mainstream religion allows it, but the Mormon faith is so opposed as to consider it (ironically, in this case) a sin secondary only to murder.

I am a bit behind here, but wanted to add, that as much as the Mormon community is opposed to premarital relations, it was my understanding that there is a BIG difference as in any culture to hold the women* more responsible to the code of conduct than the males.

Everybody knew Travis was having sex. But every Mormon woman he dated was apt to make SURE he understood her position on sex, or at least panicked at the mere concept of letting him spend the night..

There were many Mormons who Jodi flirted with, married men, I don't know why they were texting her and the such. As much as they would like to frown upon it, every church would naturally be opposed to the idea. That is nothing new. But as peer groups go, these Mormons are no different than any other affiliation, certainly not as social groups go. His friends looked the other way all the time, his own family. No bishop would approve. But that's their job/inspiration.

I would imagine Deanna, Mimi, and certainly Lisa would have more to lose if the rumor mill circulated TA's history pre-trial. Unmarried women dating a 'lusty' guy like Travis? Not sure how that would go over with the others in the 'ward.'

Besides, Mormons are 'soft' if you compare them to the Muslims. They are not allowed to have 'boyfriends.' The males are not allowed to date either. Arranged marriages were the only approved method. Else no marriage, ceremony, financial aid, or heck, even grandchildren would be approved of - we're talking total disownership. If couples pursue a relationship, while they aren't bringing them home to mom and dad, the younger generation and mainly Western influence would contribute to that. Pretty sure to openly pursue a 'sexual' relationship, the girl's so getting booted from her home - believe me, it is heavy. She *has* to be married. Parents may or may not approve of husband/wife choice (educational background, financial situation, family background - individual families may be more lax in certain households, but not usually.. aside from religion, the culture is also a component). And of course, there are virtual 'tribes' if you will, that will have a woman stoned for 'infidelity.' Translation, she may or may not have been sleeping with a man more appropriate for her than her parents were going to marry/prize her off to for a few cattle (this still happens). Again, the males do not suffer those same consequences.

Anyhow, I agree, JA was all too happy to convince others they were having way more sex than I believe they were having, to hurt his familiy. The text messages indicated as much, if he wanted the sex that badly, he would have texted her back, but I don't recall a single text indicating he wanted her - after a certain point that is. Other than that, there was just the once or twice. 1) the tape and 2) something about her and 'pop rocks' She's one crazy bat.

 

[Hope4More]

You know me, I live on hope.

.. . Looking around my house..I know we have a really good magnifying glass around here somewhere....

 

[Hope4More]

I am a bit behind here, but wanted to add, that as much as the Mormon community is opposed to premarital relations, it was my understanding that there is a BIG difference as in any culture to hold the women* more responsible to the code of conduct than the males.

Everybody knew Travis was having sex. But every Mormon woman he dated was apt to make SURE he understood her position on sex, or at least panicked at the mere concept of letting him spend the night..

There were many Mormons who Jodi flirted with, married men, I don't know why they were texting her and the such. As much as they would like to frown upon it, every church would naturally be opposed to the idea. That is nothing new. But as peer groups go, these Mormons are no different than any other affiliation, certainly not as social groups go. His friends looked the other way all the time, his own family. No bishop would approve. But that's their job/inspiration.

I would imagine Deanna, Mimi, and certainly Lisa would have more to lose if the rumor mill circulated TA's history pre-trial. Unmarried women dating a 'lusty' guy like Travis? Not sure how that would go over with the others in the 'ward.'

Besides, Mormons are 'soft' if you compare them to the Muslims. They are not allowed to have 'boyfriends.' The males are not allowed to date either. Arranged marriages were the only approved method. Else no marriage, ceremony, financial aid, or heck, even grandchildren would be approved of - we're talking total disownership. If couples pursue a relationship, while they aren't bringing them home to mom and dad, the younger generation and mainly Western influence would contribute to that. Pretty sure to openly pursue a 'sexual' relationship, the girl's so getting booted from her home - believe me, it is heavy. She *has* to be married. Parents may or may not approve of husband/wife choice (educational background, financial situation, family background - individual families may be more lax in certain households, but not usually.. aside from religion, the culture is also a component). And of course, there are virtual 'tribes' if you will, that will have a woman stoned for 'infidelity.' Translation, she may or may not have been sleeping with a man more appropriate for her than her parents were going to marry/prize her off to for a few cattle (this still happens). Again, the males do not suffer those same consequences.

Anyhow, I agree, JA was all too happy to convince others they were having way more sex than I believe they were having, to hurt his familiy. The text messages indicated as much, if he wanted the sex that badly, he would have texted her back, but I don't recall a single text indicating he wanted her - after a certain point that is. Other than that, there was just the once or twice. 1) the tape and 2) something about her and 'pop rocks' She's one crazy bat.

JMO, but I don't think everyone knew TA was having sex. Apparently at least some who knew him, after hearing what came out, found his activity unforgivable. Others seem to have assumed he was no different than many others who crossed the line with grinding and "making out" but no more. I believe a few of his closest friends knew or guessed it was more than that, but I think none knew or could have imagined Tootsie Pops and the like.

I get the impression TA's single ward was pretty tight knit and "gossipy," which makes perfect sense when there's so much pressure to marry young and after short courtships.

I don't think Mimi would ever have dated him if it was commonplace knowledge that he was or had ever been sexually active.

 

[TexMex]

JMO, but I don't think everyone knew TA was having sex. Apparently at least some who knew him, after hearing what came out, found his activity unforgivable. Others seem to have assumed he was no different than many others who crossed the line with grinding and "making out" but no more. I believe a few of his closest friends knew or guessed it was more than that, but I think none knew or could have imagined Tootsie Pops and the like.

I get the impression TA's single ward was pretty tight knit and "gossipy," which makes perfect sense when there's so much pressure to marry young and after short courtships.

I don't think Mimi would ever have dated him if it was commonplace knowledge that he was or had ever been sexually active.

I think Mimi's dad steered her away after sitting on the Discipline Council for Travis' repeat offense. I don't think he'd ever disclose anything said in confidence but discourgaed her from becoming anything other than friends with him

 

[franquerolane]

I'd love to know what that man the Hughes mentioned, who, after a couple hours drive with the black widow, and was willing to leave his wife and children for the "perfect woman", thinks now.

 

[b_lab7410]

JMO, but I don't think everyone knew TA was having sex. Apparently at least some who knew him, after hearing what came out, found his activity unforgivable. Others seem to have assumed he was no different than many others who crossed the line with grinding and "making out" but no more. I believe a few of his closest friends knew or guessed it was more than that, but I think none knew or could have imagined Tootsie Pops and the like.

I get the impression TA's single ward was pretty tight knit and "gossipy," which makes perfect sense when there's so much pressure to marry young and after short courtships.

I don't think Mimi would ever have dated him if it was commonplace knowledge that he was or had ever been sexually active.

Is it possible it is easier for them to feign shock? She flirted with MANY of TA's associates/friends. Any of the orthodox families may have been harsh, though I doubt TA would want to accommodate *their standards. It was more so about doing right by him, than by the will of others. He felt more insecure than guilty about sleeping with Jodi. He said so himself, he just wished she wasn't crazy. What he says to the bishop is one thing, but that boy wanted sex (not to say he didn't reject or avoid it - in the beginning to make her feel respected, and in the end to respect himself/find a wife IMO). I don't think he would have refrained with others - he didn't. Going to the bishop was another way for her to get involved in his life. Borderlines cling ("Oh Travis, help me, I'm suffering from being unable to keep my vows"). Threatening to expose him publicly as opposed to doing it are two different things to me. She knew that it would expose herself as well. That would be a risk to HER future goals. I agree it would have impacted his pride, but just having sex in itself probably wasn't a problem. The way SHE threatened him with it. And possibly making his grandmother blush... issues. I'm also hesitant to believe that after seeing him with a girl like JA, these other people could be so naive as to believe they weren't fooling around. These are married people too, who are they to judge? Fooling around like that, requires the same 'dirty thoughts' (penetration or not) anyway... why be upset with TA after the fact? I think they knew subconsciously if that's the case. But for appearances sake, the 'hush hush' facade goes along with this territory.

Whenever I'd met any of those conservative people's kids, believe me, when in school, I KNEW what their daughters and sons were doing behind their parents backs. But if asked, I would deny all knowledge. Wouldn't want any guilt by association... I mean I have seen men stealing glances at women so not their wives, and it's not ever brought up at the table for discussion.

I think she knew sex was his weakness. But the underlying factor here, is that there is some medial/neurological component to her and the overt sexual behavior is due to the poor wiring, or goes hand in hand with episodes of major depression, bi-polar disorder, etc. Sure she later used it as a weapon/tool, but there was an uncontrolled part of her that wanted it too. She wanted sex with Travis and others. She doesn't care if how she gets it or what for, IMO. She's overly active in this territory. I don't even think it's about sex. I kind of figured she uses the sex because the serotonin offsets the 'empty' feeling she describes. It's a neurological impact. Many depressive people could probably tell you, turning to sex is a coping mechanism. That energy seems to be a symptom of something...

BTW, I am glad she never conceived children..

 

[TexMex]

Is it possible it is easier for them to feign shock? She flirted with MANY of TA's associates/friends. Any of the orthodox families may have been harsh, though I doubt TA would want to accommodate *their standards. It was more so about doing right by him, than by the will of others. He felt more insecure than guilty about sleeping with Jodi. He said so himself, he just wished she wasn't crazy. What he says to the bishop is one thing, but that boy wanted sex (not to say he didn't reject or avoid it - in the beginning to make her feel respected, and in the end to respect himself/find a wife IMO). I don't think he would have refrained with others - he didn't. Going to the bishop was another way for her to get involved in his life. Borderlines cling ("Oh Travis, help me, I'm suffering from being unable to keep my vows"). Threatening to expose him publicly as opposed to doing it are two different things to me. She knew that it would expose herself as well. That would be a risk to HER future goals. I agree it would have impacted his pride, but just having sex in itself probably wasn't a problem. The way SHE threatened him with it. And possibly making his grandmother blush... issues. I'm also hesitant to believe that after seeing him with a girl like JA, these other people could be so naive as to believe they weren't fooling around. These are married people too, who are they to judge? Fooling around like that, requires the same 'dirty thoughts' (penetration or not) anyway... why be upset with TA after the fact? I think they knew subconsciously if that's the case. But for appearances sake, the 'hush hush' facade goes along with this territory.



I think she knew sex was his weakness. But the underlying factor here, is that there is some medial/neurological component to her and the overt sexual behavior is due to the poor wiring, or goes hand in hand with episodes of major depression, bi-polar disorder, etc. Sure she later used it as a weapon/tool, but there was an uncontrolled part of her that wanted it too. She wanted sex with Travis and others. She doesn't care if how she gets it or what for, IMO. She's overly active in this territory. I don't even think it's about sex. I kind of figured she uses the sex because the serotonin offsets the 'empty' feeling she describes. It's a neurological impact. Many depressive people could probably tell you, turning to sex is a coping mechanism. That energy seems to be a symptom of something...

BTW, I am glad she never conceived children..

Very well stated. Sex was his weakness. That combined with issues of not feeling worthy of love-because of his rough upbringing- added to Jodi being a borderline (one factor of which is hyper sexuality http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3071095/)
created a toxic relationship of epic proportions.
I agree too that if they had remained apart, he would have been able to move on. IMO he would not have gone to CA to visit her. But when she came to him that June day, naked and bearing KY-as he himself said she was his kryptonite.

 

[Hope4More]

I think Mimi's dad steered her away after sitting on the Discipline Council for Travis' repeat offense. I don't think he'd ever disclose anything said in confidence but discourgaed her from becoming anything other than friends with him

Maybe. Or she had a heart to heart with her friend, Lisa's roommate, who didn't like Travis and who Lisa confided in, or she reached the conclusion all by herself that she and Travis weren't compatible, which I think Travis knew early on was so.

 

[salberg7]

Very well stated b_lab. I never thought of it that way - she had as much to lose as Travis did if the killer went to the Bishop to spill the beans, so to speak. She too would lose her good standing. Unless of course she didn't care about her standing as she would be in California and not in his ward . Makes me think whatever the bad thing she was being called out for by Travis wasn't their sexual escapades at all.
I too do not think he would ever go to Yreka to visit her. He was done with her when she left except for menial conversation and he was placating her with that offer to visit. Yes he would have moved on and she knew it, thus the fateful trip she took occurred.
Of course he couldn't turn her down once she showed up and offered a booty call. She knew this, it was part of her premeditation to get him vulnerable. Just confirms to me the effort she went through to plan his murder.

 

[TexMex]

Maybe. Or she had a heart to heart with her friend, Lisa's roommate, who didn't like Travis and who Lisa confided in, or she reached the conclusion all by herself that she and Travis weren't compatible, which I think Travis knew early on was so.

It's always struck me that Travis seemed to think something must be "wrong with" a woman such as Mimi who was unmarried in her late 20's.
IMO most women he dated after Deanna and Linda must have thought the same thing about him. Here's a guy with a job, good looks, appears successful and religiously grounded...yet he's in his late 20's and unmarried. Red flags IMO

 

[Hope4More]

Wouldn't Flores have checked into when the last purchases Travis made were and for what?

Maybe. And maybe he found purchases he believed were made by her but JM did his JM thing and didn't go there.

In book interviews JM has said no earth shattering evidence was excluded from trial by JSS, and he also has alluded to a substantial amount of evidence prejudicial to the he chose not to enter into evidence. So many possibilities.

Parallel and kinda sorta related: Remember Nurmi saying in his book he went to Las Vegas to speak with a possible witness/someone case-related, and discovered that the had lied to him, but those undiscussed lies weren't relevant?

So many possibilities.

 

[TexMex]

Maybe. And maybe he found purchases he believed were made by her but JM did his JM thing and didn't go there.

In book interviews JM has said no earth shattering evidence was excluded from trial by JSS, and he also has alluded to a substantial amount of evidence prejudicial to the he chose not to enter into evidence. So many possibilities.

Parallel and kinda sorta related: Remember Nurmi saying in his book he went to Las Vegas to speak with a possible witness/someone case-related, and discovered that the had lied to him, but those undiscussed lies weren't relevant?

So many possibilities.

But using a credit card of someone you killed is a crime and jmo but LE would have charged her. It would have been further evidence of her being involved criminal activity (fraud) and presence at the murder scene.

 

[Hope4More]

But using a credit card of someone you killed is a crime and jmo but LE would have charged her. It would have been further evidence of her being involved criminal activity (fraud) and presence at the murder scene.

(All theoretically): Sure, if she used the card after the time of the first time stamped shower photo. But not if she used it before then.