The Murder of Bill and Lorraine Currier

[Foxfire]

Ok, I guess that you are conceding that there were no ritualistic elements in the murders of the Curriers, since there is absolutely nothing in your post or link to suggest that there were -- it seems you're just repeating the same thing you have asserted before.

Do the math Montjoy.. Watch the On the Record; Confessions of a serial killer again. You should be able to connect the dots concerning Mrs. Currier..

Sexual Asphyxia
The intentional restriction of airflow, often by an adolescent male, during ‘rough sex’, sexual rituals or cross-dressing sexuoeroticism; ligatures around the neck transiently decrease O2 to the brain, increasing sexual excitement; if the person does not loosen the ligature after orgasm—when voluntary control is at a nadir—death may occur..

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Erotic+Self-Strangulation
___________________

Quote Ted Bundy: Murder is not just a crime of lust or violence, it becomes possession. They are part of you...[the victim] becomes a part of you, and you [two] are forever one...and the grounds where you kill them or leave them become sacred to you, and you will always be drawn back to them.

 

[bessie]

Let's stay on track with Keyes and the characteristics of his three known murders. Besides asphyxiation/strangulation, which alone isn't a strong indication that a murder is ritualistic in nature, do other facts from the Currier murders suggest "sexual ritual"?

 

[Backwoods]

This is an interesting summary of some observations about serial sexual homicide, including ritual:

...Hazelwood and Warren30 drew a distinction between ritual (repetitive acts at the crime scene) and signature: “a unique combination of behaviors that emerges across two or more offenses” (Ref. 30, p 590). They were quite deliberate in their discussion of ritual. For instance, they argued that the ritual may not occur in every crime in a series because of several factors, such as time availability, the offender's mood, and various external circumstances that could dilute, modify, or interrupt the commission of a crime. Moreover, “some [features] of the crime may serve as part of the ritual and not be recognized as such … or [may be] mistakenly taken to be part of the M.O., while in other cases some element of the crime … may function as both M.O. and ritual” ...

more at: http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/2/239.full


bbm: This is JMO: I'm not so sure that we can easily distinguish, always, what is ritual and what is what Montjoy termed "things he did for expediency or efficiency."

To me, IK's caching of (and then using) "kill kits," for example, seems it could be partially ritual. I know it's easy to most often think of ritual only as something done TO the victim or, at least, AT the crime scene while the crime is being committed -- but we don't really know what all functions those caches served for IK. Certainly they had to do with expediency and efficiency and thus, I guess, MO -- but they also may have played a major part in his fantasies. Think about it: Planting a cache two years advance ... knowing it's there ... just waiting, waiting.

 

[northxnorthwest]

The kill kits to me seem like something he enjoyed and anticipated? He liked preparing and burying them. He probably could have killed just as many undetected without them because he was so careful in other ways like taking victims from secluded areas and hiding them forever while flying/driving hundreds of miles to get there. Although imo they seem unnecessary and would draw more attention to him because of whatever work he put into them like buying/stealing supplies/guns and just going to "random" locations to bury and dig up. I wonder if there are any valid witnesses out there who saw him.

 

[Foxfire]

=bessie;9818284]Let's stay on track with Keyes and the characteristics of his three known murders. Besides asphyxiation/strangulation, which alone isn't a strong indication that a murder is ritualistic in nature, do other facts from the Currier murders suggest "sexual ritual"?

Signature is the ritual of a crime, the psychological drive to commit the act. It does not change. Signature’s Desire is: power, control and domination.

Dismemberment of any body part is indicative of a Lust Crime.
The active component is a manipulation. Manipulation is the modus operandi; how the act is performed. Modus operandi changes over time by experienced/escalated sexual predators/serial killers to ensure continued success. IK, was a very escalated/experienced serial killer.

"Many times the things unseen, are as valuable as, what is seen"..
'There is the widest disagreement as to how the word ritual should be understood'.. Quote E Leach

Bessie, I respectfully disagree that asphyxiation/strangulation, combined with a sexual assault isn't a strong indication that a murder is ritualistic in nature. I also feel that it has been substantiated that IK was a ritual killer, by the enormous amount of information in the replies to Montjoy above.

Bessie, in the Confessions of a Serial Killer video, the VT Investigator Lt. George Murtie, interviewed by Greta Van Susteren stated that Mrs. Currier was sexually assaulted and strangled to near death upstairs, and then taken by IK to the basement before being strangled to death.

'Confessions of a Serial Killer': Why did Israel Keyes kill Bill and Lorraine Currier?
http://www.frequency.com/video/random-horrific-killing-of-vt-couple/117615662/-/4-939

 

[Montjoy]

Ritual is not simply routine. It is not simply gratuitous physical or sexual violence. Nor is the drive to kill necessarily ritualistic. What ritual means is that actions are repeated in a special way to invest them with symbolism and meaning. For instance, if you look at the Catholic ritual of communion, ordinary activities (drinking wine and eating bread) are transformed into something more because of the meaning with which the participants endow the activities.

Now, simply saying "oh, he bit her/raped here, so it must be a ritual killing" is totally baseless. There has been nothing to suggest that there is any symbolism in how he killed the Curriers, and thus far, in this thread, I have not seen a single example of anything which qualifies as ritual.

It's fine (albeit tiring) to go about telling people to connect the dots, but you have to understand the dots first, and know how to connect them for it to be meaningful. Otherwise, you end up committing something like this:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy"]Texas sharpshooter fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Foxfire]

Ritual is not simply routine. It is not simply gratuitous physical or sexual violence. Nor is the drive to kill necessarily ritualistic. What ritual means is that actions are repeated in a special way to invest them with symbolism and meaning. For instance, if you look at the Catholic ritual of communion, ordinary activities (drinking wine and eating bread) are transformed into something more because of the meaning with which the participants endow the activities.

Now, simply saying "oh, he bit her/raped here, so it must be a ritual killing" is totally baseless. There has been nothing to suggest that there is any symbolism in how he killed the Curriers, and thus far, in this thread, I have not seen a single example of anything which qualifies as ritual.

It's fine (albeit tiring) to go about telling people to connect the dots, but you have to understand the dots first, and know how to connect them for it to be meaningful. Otherwise, you end up committing something like this:

Texas sharpshooter fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't remember claiming to be a sharpshooter, Montjoy.. However being a Vietnam era vet with excellent marksmanship and a medal to verify it, a hunter for 5+ decades, and raising my kids in Kennesaw, GA where gun ownership is the law. I don't find it necessary to draw a target around well aimed shots at a barn.
However, I do have acquaintances that seem to persist in firing very poorly aimed blanks at this target...

 

[Foxfire]

Interesting read, imo...

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/hollow/1.html

Hollow Men: Why Serial Murderers Must Kill To Feel

BY Stephen G. Michaud who spent a hundred hours interviewing serial killer Ted Bundy on Death Row. Yet though Michaud's best known for his detailed explorations of the criminal mind, he never expected his career path to lead in that direction.

Hollow Men: Ted Bundy Discusses "Possession"

Ted Bundy

It was easily the strangest interview of my life: Ted Bundy on death row explaining to me in the third person how a sexualized murder occurs:

"The initial sexual encounter," said Bundy, "would be more or less a voluntary one that did not wholly gratify the full spectrum of desires that he had intended. And so, his sexual desire builds back up and joins ... this other need to totally possess her. As she lay there, somewhere between coma and sleep, he strangled her to death."

The pivotal word here is possess. At the time, I hardly understood what Bundy meant by it, and it remains a little-appreciated particularity in the ritualistic killer's psyche. It is nevertheless central to his crimes, and distinguishes him from every other criminal, deviant or otherwise.
<sniped & BBM>

 

[Backwoods]

How does everyone feel about the suspect sketch released in the investigation of the Curriers murder? bbm:

Two days after the Curriers went missing, their car was found abandoned at a parking lot in the 200 block of Pearl Street in Essex Junction, next to a dumpster between two apartment buildings. This is less than a mile from William and Lorraine's home, and a short walk from the bus stop. Investigators released a sketch of an unidentified man whom a witness may have seen driving the car; the drawing is posted below this case summary.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/currier_lorraine.html

Do you think the witness did in fact see Keyes driving the Curriers' car -- making the sketch, indeed, one of IK? If so, what do you think about the resemblance?

Allowing himself to be seen driving the victims' car -- hmmm, that might seem like another "slip" in this murder (as I suggested a less-than-foolproof disposition of the bodies might be, though it turned out to work fine for him).

Or maybe -- he has never been QUITE as careful as we are giving him credit for having been? Perhaps he has always had areas of laxity, while being ultra-sneaky in many ways? Just pondering. If we could figure out a "weak" area, it might help in finding other victims.

I wonder if there may be other "suspect sketches" out there somewhere inspired by IK.

 

[Foxfire]

How does everyone feel about the suspect sketch released in the investigation of the Curriers murder? bbm:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/currier_lorraine.html

Do you think the witness did in fact see Keyes driving the Curriers' car -- making the sketch, indeed, one of IK? If so, what do you think about the resemblance?

Allowing himself to be seen driving the victims' car -- hmmm, that might seem like another "slip" in this murder (as I suggested a less-than-foolproof disposition of the bodies might be, though it turned out to work fine for him).

Or maybe -- he has never been QUITE as careful as we are giving him credit for having been? Perhaps he has always had areas of laxity, while being ultra-sneaky in many ways? Just pondering. If we could figure out a "weak" area, it might help in finding other victims.

I wonder if there may be other "suspect sketches" out there somewhere inspired by IK.

Not sure that it would made a difference Backwoods, but it is not difficult to backtrack and visualize LE's lack of urgency and 'much ado about nothing' perception the morning after the Courriers were abducted. LE, as in many missing person cases, wrote it off as routine and assumed that the Courriers would show up later in the day, imo. Time is critical in missing person's cases.

When they didn't show up for work, their friends/neighbors contacted LE after noticing their car missing from the garage and a side window broken out. LE shows up and fills out an incident report. There were no signs of foul play/burglary in their opinion.

The friends later realize that their firearm was missing. Imo, this is when LE realized that this wasn't just another routine call as first thought. Detectives return to their home later in the evening and notice the phone line had been purposely cut. The cut phone line was within inches of the broken window..

My question would be; "at what time of day did the person that witnessed IK, driving the Courriers car see him"?

RE: Allowing himself to be seen driving the victims' car-- hmmm, that might seem like another "slip" in this murder

Imo, IK calculated that folks would not realize the Courriers were missing so soon and assumed that LE would conclude that they had left on their own volition.. This is the norm when adults go missing and there are no obvious signs of foul play...

Noticed that the person witnessed driving the Courriers car had a beard..

Backwoods, FBI-trained artists have the technology to draw 3d color sketches of POIs/Suspects.... These sketches are analogous to a photo and are much better than the outdated ones used in this case. It is beyond me as to why this resource is not utilized more often in investigations. I became aware of the sketches a few years ago. but the technology has been available for over 10 years.

Couple of Examples:

Composite sketch led to arrest of Kent rape suspect
http://www.askaforensicartist.com/composite-sketch-led-to-arrest-of-kent-rape-suspect/

Kent Police released this composite sketch of a suspect wanted in connection with two sexual assaults Oct. 26-27 on the East Hill.— Image Credit: COURTESY DRAWING, Kent Police

__________________________________

Private investigator Steve Steve Siske NC, used one of these colored sketches in Rosana Miliani's case, who went missing Dec. 7, 2005(NC).

(scroll down/enlarge & compare to the standard sketches used in investigations)
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/killer-gary-hilton-may-be-linked-to-missing-miami-/nQHy5/

 

[digndoodle]

How does everyone feel about the suspect sketch released in the investigation of the Curriers murder? bbm:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/currier_lorraine.html

Do you think the witness did in fact see Keyes driving the Curriers' car -- making the sketch, indeed, one of IK? If so, what do you think about the resemblance?

Allowing himself to be seen driving the victims' car -- hmmm, that might seem like another "slip" in this murder (as I suggested a less-than-foolproof disposition of the bodies might be, though it turned out to work fine for him).

Or maybe -- he has never been QUITE as careful as we are giving him credit for having been? Perhaps he has always had areas of laxity, while being ultra-sneaky in many ways? Just pondering. If we could figure out a "weak" area, it might help in finding other victims.

I wonder if there may be other "suspect sketches" out there somewhere inspired by IK.

Backwoods, Keyes was smart, even though I hate to admit that but he was not perfect as he thought he was, If I am remembering correctly I believe he drove the curriers car close to town and someone saw him behind the wheel is how they got the sketch and as far as the resembalence.....we do not know truly how Keyes looked at the time, the one photo that is known as his drivers license he has a wig on, Why I have no clue, but can be seen very clearly it is a wig by where it seems to have slipped back some and you can just seem his hair and where the wig begins.....I feel at times he had long hair, sometimes worn in a ponytail, other times he seems to have it cut neat and very short but he also was known to wear disguises also.....the sketch is not what gave him away and connected him to the Curriers, after he was caught for using the ATM card of Samantha, he had "numerous" maps in the rental car and it was only after questioning him they begin to suspect he might have been involved in the Curriers...after they showed him some things and proved they knew he was there and etc....He confessed he did kidnap and kill them

 

[Lucky 1]

http://www.wcax.com/story/15209975/police-expand-search-for-missing-essex-couple

The couple's car ended up next to a Dumpster at the Pearl Street Apartments, less than a mile from their home. But police now say they've discovered the Curriers had their car serviced just days before they vanished and there's actually 40 miles unaccounted for.

IK talks about wanting to take their car on an extended bank robbing spree, but decided it wasn't in good enough mechanical order.....where was he going, on a joy ride for 40 miles? And more people didn't see him??

 

[Foxfire]

http://www.wcax.com/story/15209975/police-expand-search-for-missing-essex-couple



IK talks about wanting to take their car on an extended bank robbing spree, but decided it wasn't in good enough mechanical order.....where was he going, on a joy ride for 40 miles? And more people didn't see him??

It would be logical to conclude that another cache would likely be buried at a location 20 miles from where the Couriers were located, imo..

 

[cynar]

Lucky and Foxfire,

My assumption is that he headed out to do the bank robberies, the car's mechanical issues became apparent, he turned around and found a place to park it. That's the 40 miles. Walks to the hotel, gathers his stuff, checks out.

 

[Foxfire]

Lucky and Foxfire,

My assumption is that he headed out to do the bank robberies, the car's mechanical issues became apparent, he turned around and found a place to park it. That's the 40 miles. Walks to the hotel, gathers his stuff, checks out.

Possibly, cynar...A check to see if there was a state/national park within an 18 to 20 mile radius of the Currier's body location would rule the theory in or out, imo.. Doesn't normally take 40 miles of driving a car to realize that it has mechanical issues in most cases, imo..

 

[Onelio]

Generally yes, it would be public information if the city/county was in charge of demolition. It may vary state to state, I know in WA that is always done with a public notice posted months in advance. Info also availiable online about building demolition.

I cannot believe the demolays went into the basement of the farmhouse and smelled decomposition (seems like it was a really strong smell) coming from the basement....but didn't go look around and see. They just tore the house down and took it away. /:

 

[Onelio]

I can. So many dead animals end up in places like that. If you're using a big excavator then would make sense.