Trial Discussion Thread #32

[shane13]

Yes indeed, here she is the real victim. The photo which the vulnerable, whining, crying for himself, OP and his DT wanted no-one to see supposedly because of the dignity of RS.

What a load of crap, how on earth would this take away dignity from RS. No, they wanted to keep exactly what OP had done to this beautiful young woman under wraps for OP's benefit not Reeva's since he has been painting himself as the victim in all of this from day one.

BBM
Thank you, Whiterum!

And this of course goes to the point I keep making.
Here despite a Constitution and alleged Freedom of the Press--and you can be sure everyday in SA Courts even more gruesome photos, evidence and testimony is presented live and for all to see--this was all blocked in this case.

So here the testimony, the tweeting, the autopsy report, photos [but one got out by accident] etc etc. were denied the people of SA. And a "packet" of info was made by someone and handed out.

This one runs very deep.

 

[Jake18]

You mean after she died instantly from the head wound? I don't think so. And, don't forget the distance that the Burghers live from OP.





Nel then asked if Steenkamp would have been able to use her right arm after the injury, but Saayman said this would have been very unlikely.

He also said the wound to the head was incapacitating and instantly fatal.

Saayman said, however, that the seriousness of the wounds to the hip and right arm could have also led to her death.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020

Molly, I'm the one who has been arguing for threads and threads that what Prof Saayman actually said was that the head shot incapacitated her, stopped her breathing and rendered her unconscious but "would not have necessarily killed her straight away". Crasshopper found a report stating that both the DT and PT were in agreement that she died on the stairs. And Prof Saayman specifically testified about the scream tailing off - I see no reason to disbelieve him.

 

[shane13]

Here's the link to Baba's evidence on the Juror13 blog if that helps. I'm just reading it now and can't see anything about Stander telling him not to go (as yet) but have got to the bit where he felt the Standers didn't want him to enter.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/

Below is Juro13's entry re that:

<modsnip>

PS Hope I am attributing this copyrighted material acceptably.

I do not go there.
The only way to know for sure (hopefully) is to view the videos--and hope there has not been doctoring of these ones.

ETA: People have to consider at all the times the following logic.

If we know two crucial items were illegally taken from/given to OP's people at the crime scene, there may have been more items illegallytaken/given to OP's people that we may never know about. Again the "scapegoat' WO Botha actually told the world that the .38 ammo was taken from the crime scene. Despite what some here or elsewhere say, I do not believe Roux will call Botha...

Now re videos it is the same logic. Given that video of Nel stipulating and revealing that it was a long 16 days that Roux and Co had the fifth phone, that stipualtion is gone from videos. So it is reasonable to assume that other important matters may not be in videos also--just like the logic of removing items from the crime scene w.o. charging or investigating, and that more items may have been removed.

ETA2: I think most people here know or sense that something rotten went on re the actions--and inactions-- of Stander and his daughter. Yet neither were charged... Hopefully they will be called by Roux, and hopefully Nel will grill them honestly.

 

[DebinGA]

Karmady, if the judge doesn't believe his story, the prosecution wins.

I hope that means if the judge believes both Stipps that the bathroom light was ON, not OFF as OP claims, moments after the first bangs, then there's no reason to believe OP wasn't shooting at Reeva in particular.

 

[molly333]

Molly, I'm the one who has been arguing for threads and threads that what Prof Saayman actually said was that the head shot incapacitated her, stopped her breathing and rendered her unconscious but "would not have necessarily killed her straight away". Crasshopper found a report stating that both the DT and PT were in agreement that she died on the stairs. And Prof Saayman specifically testified about the scream tailing off - I see no reason to disbelieve him.

Could I see a link to the scream 'tailing off' after the head wound?

 

[Trooper]

I hope that means if the judge believes both Stipps that the bathroom light was ON, not OFF as OP claims, moments after the first bangs, then there's no reason to believe OP wasn't shooting at Reeva in particular.

And I do believe they saw that light, Deb....

 

[weeeva]

The hip shot and the arm shot were not immediately fatal shots, unlike the head shot. The hip and arm shots would cause Reeva to bleed out if not given medical treatment rather quickly. However, neither would cause her death immediately like the head wound did. It is very easy to see that Reeva would be screaming out in pain, horror, shock, etc after both the hip and arm shots.

MOO

In my mind when I try to picture the shots being fired and hitting Reeva, I count to four and find it easy to imagine that Reeva did not scream. I find it harder to imagine the screams intermingled with the shots. How much screaming can a person do to the count of four quick fire shots? I find it easy to imagine that the shots hitting her would have stunned her and left no time for screams. I just say one two three four, in normal timing and it is just too short a time. Even shorter if the shots were fired in quick succession. One two three four.

 

[Carmelita]

Based on the recent opinion from the SA court regarding the firing of this gun multiple times without intent to fire multiple times, I question whether the court can possibly find intent on that basis given the less-than-a-month-old authority to the direct contrary. Carmelita is still looking to see why she thinks the two guns are different -- so I'm waiting for that.

Hi, no I am satisfied that they are the same and both semi automatics. It was a post by Viper that indicated otherwise and I confused his post with being a factual account that I had read of the Sixtus appeal. It is a case of me reading too much and making too many mental notes.

My apologies.

I was wrong about the Sixtus gun being different (I have already posted this back somewhere up thread). I have always understood and stated that Oscars gun had a single action trigger.

 

[jay-jay]

We don't know that bullets are exactly lining up with wounds. if they are estimating [and State and Prosecution disagree so far on how and where she was standing and falling], Oscar could estimate, too.

MOO

There is no question that the first bullet through the door lines up with her hip injury .. the trajectory through the door and then through her hip testifies to that 100%. I think it's going off into the realms of fantasy to think that OP faked a shot through the door which matches up with the one in her hip, even if you don't think they line up 'exactly'. Could you please expand on how you think OP was able to manage this, because frankly I'm not seeing it .. it's just not possible (without the intervention of those aliens we keep talking about).

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

A Vanity Fair piece from last June containing some tasty morsels of info from Hilton Botha

 

[shane13]

RE Possible Upcoming Testimony of the Standers

People, I urge you to please watch the testimony live. Including the direct from Roux and the cross by Nel. See what will be asked and what might not get asked ...

Please do not depend on later videos, tweets, etc. Please watch it live yourself, if you can...

 

[Cherwell]

In my mind when I try to picture the shots being fired and hitting Reeva, I count to four and find it easy to imagine that Reeva did not scream. I find it harder to imagine the screams intermingled with the shots. How much screaming can a person do to the count of four quick fire shots? I find it easy to imagine that the shots hitting her would have stunned her and left no time for screams. I just say one two three four, in normal timing and it is just too short a time. Even shorter if the shots were fired in quick succession. One two three four.

She was already screaming when he shot her IMO, and had been screaming for a while.

 

[Emz73]

I don't know that. That could have been bat on door at 3:17.

Sounds the same to Dr. & Mrs. Stipp.

MOO

OK.ullhair:

 

[weeeva]

No OP didn't say anything about hearing the ladder being moved. He also never said anything about Reeva hearing the ladder being moved. That's the problem. He claims that Reeva was awake so if an intruder had moved the ladder to get to the bathroom window, Reeva would have heard it. OP didn't think about that apparently. But then OP overlooks a lot of things if they don't involve him specifically.

MOO

I'm puzzled by this idea. How could OP expect Reeva to hear something that didn't happen. He did not hear the ladders so why would he expect that Reeva heard them?

 

[Irisha]

It was Reeva opening the window - she wouldn't have "heard" the intruder opening the window and alerted OP

If Reeva was actually going for a quick trip to the bathroom in the dark or by the dim light of her cell phone, why would she even bother to open a window, or why would it cross her mind to open a window?


I can't tell, do windows, doorwalls have screens in them in his condo?

 

[Nausicaa]

In my mind when I try to picture the shots being fired and hitting Reeva, I count to four and find it easy to imagine that Reeva did not scream. I find it harder to imagine the screams intermingled with the shots. How much screaming can a person do to the count of four quick fire shots? I find it easy to imagine that the shots hitting her would have stunned her and left no time for screams. I just say one two three four, in normal timing and it is just too short a time. Even shorter if the shots were fired in quick succession. One two three four.

How far can a chicken run after you've chopped its head off ?

Quite a long way actually, as we all know, because the nerve impulses to the legs, unlike OP's handgun, are fully automatic. They tend to go one happening until a counter-order comes from the brain (not possible without head) or until the body becomes physically unable to continue because muscles are not being reoxygenated, etc.

In the same way, screaming in humans cannot usually be initiated after interruption of the brain-nerve-muscle pathway but might conceivably be continued for a short time.

Then again you have an apparent example of post-mortem scream initiation in the case of the unearthly blood-freezing scream of Captain Nolan when he was shot and instantaneously killed right at the start of the Charge of the Light Brigade (1854). Its quality was such that men who had heard never forgot it for the rest of their lives - it was entirely involuntary and a matter of nerves continuing to function.

Witness credibility cannot be undermined by our own limited powers of imagination.

 

[shane13]

People here are (rightfully) still talking about the light issue.

I posted a satirical or biblical allegorical piece about why and when Op's story needs light or dark at that moment.,

I repost it here now as probably some of you missed it.

Let There Be Light © Shane13

In the beginning, there was light in the bedroom, as Oscar and Reeva argued for an hour.

Then Oscar said, ”Let there be Pitch Dark” and all was dark in his affidavit-world.
So Darkness had descended upon his bedroom.

But then his allibi-world needed some light and Oscar said, “Let there be LED—Blue.” And blue light descended upon his bedroom. So that Oscar could see Reeva allegedly in bed for a moment in time [like tears in the rain].

But then Oscar needed the Pitch Dark again, so that he could not see that Reeva was not in bed. So Oscar now said, ”Let there be Blue Denim Jeans” to bring forth Pitch Dark once again, in the bedroom. And so the blue light vanished, and there was pitch dark descended again upon the bedroom. And Oscar and Roux said all was good.

And because Oscar next needed noise and an excuse to chase after Reeva into the bathroom where she now hid for her dear life, Oscar said, ”Let there be a noise of opening a window in the bathroom. And lo and behold, a miracle occurred, and the bathroom window opened upon itself!

And Oscar then said all was good—I mean bad. And then Oscar descended upon the alleged intruders. And with great [self-]righteousness, Oscar slayed the alleged intruder trapped behind the loo door.

And as he soon allegedly cradled his actual victim, poor Reeva, in his arms, Mr Baba called from on high, and asked Oscar, what was going on at his home, as people heard gunshots,
and Oscar then said, ”Everything is Fine.”

And later there was Nel to bring back the light, we all hope…
And if not, let the People in their wisdom bring light to this, for Reeva deserves the light of truth and justice.

Let there be light.

 

[Viper]

Hi Val and THANK You Jake!

Val, so sorry that was me. I brought up organ donation as an aside during a discussion of brain death, not because it applied to Reeva.

Let me also clarify again that I never said and nor was Reeva a case of brain death, but certain similarities BRIEFLY applied.

The pertinent example was of Pulling the "plug" on the brain dead, ( the ones who aren't breathing on their own and on a respirator; but whose hearts ARE continuing to beat autonomously). After the respirator and any other support is turned off, the heart keeps beating for some minutes before arresting due to lack of oxygen from no more ventilatory support and no breathing on your own. Eventually when criteria are met, the patient is then declared dead.

The topic of brain death was brought up to prove the heart can continue to beat after breathing stops, in this case the her breathing stopped as a result of a devastating injury to the brain, apparently including the area controlling breathing. The continued, likely weak or erratic, beating of her heart is indicated by the presence of arterial spurts in the bedroom and below the landing.


Since I was responsible, I couldn't leave you hanging but that is the last I am even broaching the topic of arterial spurts until further testimony from experts.

Thank you Jake for answering too!

Nite, nite

BIB. Whoa! You are not getting away that fast. LOL! (Joking)

Nest has already changed his mind and said that the "arterial spurt" above the bed was not arterial spurt, he conceded that it could also have been blood cast off from OPs hands. If you consider the amount of time that passed between Reeva being shot three times and when she was brought downstairs, at least 9 minutes, and if you consider that Reeva had not one but two severed arteries, her breathing had stopped and her brain functions had stopped, it would literally be a miracle if her heart had still been beating by the time that OP carried her down the stairs. It would be impossible.

Therefore there has to be a mechanical reason for the blood over the railing and on the staircase wall. Cast off from Reeva's blood soaked hair is likely, compression and decompression too.

 

[weeeva]

She was already screaming when he shot her IMO, and had been screaming for a while.

Yes but that is a different scenario from what I am imaging. If he had been chasing Reeva with the gun I can understand the continuous screams, but not the screams intermingled with the shots because if she knew he had a gun I doubt she would be standing so close to the door, it would make more sense that she be cowering in a corner to avoid any shots. To me it makes more sense that Reeva was standing close to the door because she was listening to what was going on after hearing OP react as if there was someone in the house.
Sorry if I missing something here, it is all very confusing.

 

[soozieqtips]

How far can a chicken run after you've chopped its head off ?

Quite a long way actually, as we all know, because the nerve impulses to the legs, unlike OP's handgun, are fully automatic. They tend to go one happening until a counter-order comes from the brain (not possible without head) or until the body becomes physically unable to continue because muscles are not being reoxygenated, etc.

In the same way, screaming in humans cannot usually be initiated after interruption of the brain-nerve-muscle pathway but might conceivably be continued for a short time.

Then again you have an apparent example of post-mortem scream initiation in the case of the unearthly blood-freezing scream of Captain Nolan when he was shot and instantaneously killed right at the start of the Charge of the Light Brigade (1854). Its quality was such that men who had heard never forgot it for the rest of their lives - it was entirely involuntary and a matter of nerves continuing to function.

Witness credibility cannot be undermined by our own limited powers of imagination.

BBM - that's interesting. Maybe when OP said he had never 'screamed and cried' like that before in his life, he was thinking back to when he heard Reeva screaming and crying, and added that in as his own experience (and of course to 'explain' why people 'thought' they heard Reeva).