who latched the door?

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Could very well be the case.
We have JR statement that it was latched but then do we believe him.
My conjecture is that infact it was unlatched as JR left it unlatched after his secret visit to the wine cellar.
 
tumble said:
Could very well be the case.
We have JR statement that it was latched but then do we believe him.
My conjecture is that infact it was unlatched as JR left it unlatched after his secret visit to the wine cellar.
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Has Fleet White ever been asked if the wine cellar door was unlatched when he and John went down together?
 
Not to my knowledge. I have been looking for FW statements alot but havn't found any.
Maybe somebody here has a book that can shed some light on this.
But as FW has been quiet about R's guilt I don't think he would have said anything about this to anyone(except JR)

But this FW stuff and secret visit are just conjectures.
The really telling thing about this is that PR is the only person ho would latch it in the first place.
 
tumble said:
I am kind of surprised none has aswer this thread?

Is it obvious to all of you that FW relatched the door?

Also I have seen info the officer French saw this door latched at 8.00 that morning. If this is the case FW must have relatched the door. But some say French examined the basement as soon as he got to the house at 6.00. Which is correct??
Feel I am talking to myself here, hmm not a good sign:rolleyes:
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Hi tumble, well I've been away and this is the first time I have seen this thread and I am very interested in the point you have raised (a) because it's the first time it has ever been brought to my attention and (b) because it involves FW. But first, do you mean, when you say "Could be that he never unlatched it the second time but KNEW it was latched(...because he himself latched it during the night...)" You are talking about John right? And you are suggesting that he might be lying when he mentions in the '97 interview that he unlatched the door? And you are wondering why, if John wasn't lying, that FW had relatched the door when he went down at 6.15 am? Sorry about all this, but I have been on my computer for hours, trying to catch up. Could you just expand a bit on what you are thinking to make it clearer for me? Thanks.
 
tumble said:
It could even be the case that FW didn't latch the door on his first visit to the room but JR latched it again after his "secret" visit to the room as has been speculated.

FW may very well have noticed that JR unlatched the door at their second visit and come to think about this later. Very much so if he tried to explain to himself why he didn't see the white blanket when he looked inside.
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Oh please tumble no, you're going to tell me now that you believe in this "secret" visit of John's aren't you?
 
aussieshiela:
I am speculating regarding this hatch because there was no good reason to latch it.
PR mentions that she usually latched it because she wanted to keep the cildren away from the room(why we don't know, during christmas she say she stores presents there though)
JR seems not tu have known this and seems genuinly to not understand why this door was latched, understandably.
THis leads me to think that it must have been PR that put JBR in the room in the first place as we know the door was latched in the morning.(Both French and FW states this).

So, regardning FW, we know from his statements that he opened the door once.
I thought that he very well could have forgot or ignored to relatch it.

And regarding JR, we know that it was not in his habit to latch it, so IF he had a secret visit to the room he probably would not relatch it.

And finally, we know FW had some issues with JR after the 26th that seem to have lead to their friendship ended.
And I think the cause of this was that FW noticed something was not right when he and JR found the body. The latch could be one such thing.
 
tumble said:
I am very hooked up about this latch :confused:
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and you've got me hooked too tumble. I think I might have to give it at rest though until tomorrow, I'm very :confused:
 
tumble said:
aussieshiela:
I am speculating regarding this hatch because there was no good reason to latch it.
PR mentions that she usually latched it because she wanted to keep the cildren away from the room(why we don't know, during christmas she say she stores presents there though)
JR seems not tu have known this and seems genuinly to not understand why this door was latched, understandably.
THis leads me to think that it must have been PR that put JBR in the room in the first place as we know the door was latched in the morning.(Both French and FW states this).

So, regardning FW, we know from his statements that he opened the door once.
I thought that he very well could have forgot or ignored to relatch it.

And regarding JR, we know that it was not in his habit to latch it, so IF he had a secret visit to the room he probably would not relatch it.

And finally, we know FW had some issues with JR after the 26th that seem to have lead to their friendship ended.
And I think the cause of this was that FW noticed something was not right when he and JR found the body. The latch could be one such thing.
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tumble, I can see that you are posting right now but I really am going to have to leave this until tomorrow. You don't want to know how many hours I've been on this site the last couple of days trying to catch up and quite honestly I'm having trouble thinking straight. This 'door latching/unlatching' business is a lot like the 'chair blocking the doorway' business where FW, Officer French and JR all went through the doorway but we are not quite sure of the sequence and are trying to explain why neither FW nor French mentioned the chair whereas JR did. PS I'm a bit disappointed to think you must be an RDI as you seem to believe that it was Pasty who put the body in the cellar. Oh well, such is life. I'm going off now to skim through some other threads that don't require so much of my brainpower.
 
tumble said:
Also I have seen info the officer French saw this door latched at 8.00 that morning. If this is the case FW must have relatched the door. But some say French examined the basement as soon as he got to the house at 6.00. Which is correct??
Feel I am talking to myself here, hmm not a good sign:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Yes another problem. French looked through the basement pretty much as soon as he arrived at the house and so did FW. But both arrived pretty soon after 6:00 am. So it is very hard to know just which one of them went downstairs first and inspected the cellar and went though the trainroom doorway which may or may not have been blocked.

Now this is probably going to mean the parting of the ways for you and me because I believe that JR was telling the truth in all of his interviews and that FW lied in his statements where necessary. I don't believe that JR went down for a 'secret' visit, I suppose you do?
 
Oh please tumble no, you're going to tell me now that you believe in this "secret" visit of John's aren't you?

Actually I am not a firm BELIEVER in this.
As I said the secret visit thing is pure speculation.
There may not be any issue regarding the latch and FW but I think its an issue regarding PR.

An alternative latch theory...
It could very well be the case the FW forgot to latch the door when he closed it.
Then when he and JR opened the door to JBR's room it was not latched, no problem there.
Then he get info that JR is telling the BPD that the door WAS latched when he and JR found the body. Hmm, this does not add up he thinks.
JR does this cause he DID NOT KNOW FW had been looking into the wine cellar before and was thinking of and earlier occation when he tried to open the door. Could be a visit before the 911 call as well.
He knew that French had found the door latched, so it must have been latched in his mind at this occation.
It could be hard for JR to change this story cause then I need to explain his statement about being surprised to find the door latched.

FW lied in his statements where necessary

Then we have a whole different case. But why?

you must be an RDI as you seem to believe that it was Pasty who put the body in the cellar

Sorry to disappoint you but this latch thing among others has kind of lead me in this direction.
 
trixie:
First I would want to know how the latch came to be there

Maybe the latch had a function before the carpet was laid in the basement.
The door was stuck because of the carpet.
Without the carpet maybe the latch held the door shut.
 
This is a good catch, Tumble. I'm impressed. I wish we had more FW info, I'm thinking he could shed alot of light on things. Oh, and to be able to read those notes he was making that morning...
 
IrishMist:
Thanks alot. This forum is great, friendly people :)

Oh, and to be able to read those notes he was making that morning...

You wish ;)
 
tumble said:
Oh please tumble no, you're going to tell me now that you believe in this "secret" visit of John's aren't you?

Actually I am not a firm BELIEVER in this.
As I said the secret visit thing is pure speculation.
There may not be any issue regarding the latch and FW but I think its an issue regarding PR.

An alternative latch theory...
It could very well be the case the FW forgot to latch the door when he closed it.
Then when he and JR opened the door to JBR's room it was not latched, no problem there.
Then he get info that JR is telling the BPD that the door WAS latched when he and JR found the body. Hmm, this does not add up he thinks.
JR does this cause he DID NOT KNOW FW had been looking into the wine cellar before and was thinking of and earlier occation when he tried to open the door. Could be a visit before the 911 call as well.
He knew that French had found the door latched, so it must have been latched in his mind at this occation.
It could be hard for JR to change this story cause then I need to explain his statement about being surprised to find the door latched.

FW lied in his statements where necessary

Then we have a whole different case. But why?

you must be an RDI as you seem to believe that it was Pasty who put the body in the cellar

Sorry to disappoint you but this latch thing among others has kind of lead me in this direction.
Click to expand...
tumble, I think it was French who went down to the basement first at 6:05, then FW at 6:15, then John around 8:30, then John and FW together at 1:00. Some people think that John went down another time for a 'secret' visit. I don't believe this, I actually think it was FW who went down for at least one 'secret' visit between 8:30 and 1:00.

I think the murderers hid the body in the cellar and latched the door. I think Patsy knew her dead daughter was down there and around 5 am when she had finished the ransom note and was all alone, she got the Barbie nightgown from JonBenet's cupboard and went down to the cellar thinking she would at least re-dress her in a pretty nightgown. But I think when she went in there and saw the state the body was in she dropped the nightgown in absolute horror and left the nightgown just in a heap beside the body. I think she re-latched the door because it was the intention of the murderers that the body not be found in the house (they had planned that someone was going to come back and take it away to the mountains so it would look like a kidnapper had dumped her there).

When FW looked into the cellar he did so IMO, to check that the body was actually there, and so I believe he DID see the body and was lying when he told police he didn't. I am sure he re-latched the door for exactly the same reason Patsy did and I think he also moved a chair that had been used during a sadistic sexual abuse session that had preceded the murder, to a position where it blocked the doorway to the trainroom.

Then when John came down to the basement he moved the chair to get into the trainroom. I think FW came down again and moved the furniture around a bit more because he was looking for something. Then when he and John went down again together, John noticed that the furniture positions were different again.
 
Was it ever noted that FW left the group and was off on his own during the morning, unaccounted for?
 
aussieshiela:
I think the murderers hid the body in the cellar and latched the door.

Why would the murderers latch it? This latch didn't do anything and didn't fall down on its own.

I think she re-latched the door because it was the intention of the murderers that the body not be found in the house (they had planned that someone was going to come back and take it away to the mountains so it would look like a kidnapper had dumped her there).

I am sorry but the sentence does not make sense to me. Why latch a door because a body was not to be found in the house? Remember the latch was on the wrong side. It didn't keep any grown up person out of the room. Neither FW or JR had any problem entering the room...
I think PR latched this door because it was in her habit and her preconceived idea that it looked 'neat and tidy shut and closed' as she puts it. Anyone else wouldn't think of latching it.
 
tumble said:
aussieshiela:
I think the murderers hid the body in the cellar and latched the door.

Why would the murderers latch it? This latch didn't do anything and didn't fall down on its own.

I think she re-latched the door because it was the intention of the murderers that the body not be found in the house (they had planned that someone was going to come back and take it away to the mountains so it would look like a kidnapper had dumped her there).

I am sorry but the sentence does not make sense to me. Why latch a door because a body was not to be found in the house? Remember the latch was on the wrong side. It didn't keep any grown up person out of the room. Neither FW or JR had any problem entering the room...
I think PR latched this door because it was in her habit and her preconceived idea that it looked 'neat and tidy shut and closed' as she puts it. Anyone else wouldn't think of latching it.
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Yes I see what you are saying tumble and you are right. I guess the only thing that I imagine they might have been thinking was that if they had left the door unlatched, it might just look a bit more as though it was frequently used and that others might be more likely to suspect that something might be hidden behind it. A bit weak I know, but if they had hidden the body in the cellar and were hoping no-one would look in there, they would have more likely to have latched the door than not IMO.
 
aussieshila:
I dont think your theory of events conflict with the latch.
You say PR went down there and she latched the door. If the door was latched or not when she got there I cant see matters. The importatnt thing is that the door was infact latched when officer French went down there at 6.05. And the person who had been last would have been PR.
 
tumble said:
aussieshila:
I dont think your theory of events conflict with the latch.
You say PR went down there and she latched the door. If the door was latched or not when she got there I cant see matters. The importatnt thing is that the door was infact latched when officer French went down there at 6.05. And the person who had been last would have been PR.
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Yes,that's right. I can't remember why I got so onto this point now. (I should read back to the beinning of the thread) I think it might have been that I was thinking the door was not normally latched, so that it being latched on the morning of the 26th would have indicated that whoever put her body there did not want anyone to look in the cellar. Not a big issue, but there you go.
 
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