BBM, That's a good question. Also agree with the rest of your post. When trying to find facts in a murder case, a shoddy and poor investigation just doesn't get all the facts. How can it? Vital evidence will be missed i would think.
Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185
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BBM, That's a good question. Also agree with the rest of your post. When trying to find facts in a murder case, a shoddy and poor investigation just doesn't get all the facts. How can it? Vital evidence will be missed i would think.
It was investigated by The DCI and the WI Crime Lab, whose reports unfortunately are not available to us. The records we have now, CASO's and MTSO's only tell of looking for bone.
proudfootz
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Apparently there was some interest in things other than apparent bone, as some rivets were allegedly found.
Reports which are not available can't influence my judgement.
But it seems suspicious to me the coroner was not allowed to professionally examine the site where these things we reportedly found.
missy1974
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I am not sure guruagain, I tried to search it, and uggh now I have that on my google search history! lol
I think it comes down to how it was investigated, and I am not sure that CASO would still have all the dirt that they picked up, IIRC they literally took a backhoe to the pit after they shovelled whatever into the buckets. I don't know what they did with all that soil they dug up.
missy1974
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"some" rivets, not all. And the jean button was never found, it's much larger than a rivet. They did also run a magnet over whatever they had spread out on tables/tarps. They also didn't find any purse or wallet remnants, most would have zippers, snaps, metal of some sort.
Yes, that's why I said "All the cops ever tried to collect was anything that looked like bone or belongings of Teresa." in my previous post.
So you are judging before reviewing source material of those who conducted the search, and thus basing your opinion on records of those who did not conduct the search?
proudfootz
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You also said their records cant influence your judgment, implying u already judged without ever reading their records. In case you did, i raised that question.
proudfootz
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You seem to be saying you are influenced by these reports which are 'unfortunately' not available to us, which would seem to indicate you have judged them without ever reading them.
I'd venture to suggest that my position is at least as reasonable as yours, if not more so.
Where did I say or indicate that I believe there was lead found inside the burn pit?
proudfootz
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According to statements the burn pit was sifted - which is how various non-bone items were recovered. No remains of bullets found.
Occam's Razor would indicate that no body with bullets in it was burned there.
ETA: the only lead was apparently attached to a bone (not enough there to make a full bullet).
Occam's Razor would indicate that no body with bullets in it was burned there.
ETA: the only lead was apparently attached to a bone (not enough there to make a full bullet).
Interesting. If this Occam's Razor is indeed based on a file that lists everything that was found, or rather, seen in the burn pit. What is your source?
proudfootz
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AFAICT no bullets were found in the fire pit. Had there been, I would expect the evidence to be produced (on the assumption that law enforcement was interested in finding evidence to solve the case).
The state again fails to produce persuasive evidence of their claim any body with bullets in it was burned on the Avery property.
There's no rationale to reverse the burden of proof.
The state again fails to produce persuasive evidence of their claim any body with bullets in it was burned on the Avery property.
There's no rationale to reverse the burden of proof.
But what is your source that no lead was found in the burn pit? From the records we do have available, the main focus seemed to have been to find Teresa - her bones, pieces of her cloth like her zipper and rivet. Teeth fragments.
BBM, Exactly. No reason not to investigate a murder case thoroughly in such a purportedly heinous crime IMO.
(quote)
Brent Turvey, a nationally recognized forensic scientist in Alaska, contends that only a couple of logical reasons explain why deputies did not take photos at the three different locations in the Halbach murder probe.
"It's either negligence or it's intentional," he said.
Turvey said the sheriff's officials and investigators from Manitowoc and Calumet counties were properly trained. They had experience investigating other crimes such as burglaries, sexual assaults, drunken driving fatalities and domestic violence where photography is common.
Moreover, the National Institute of Justice has published guidelines for processing crime scenes. These standards are followed routinely by police agencies across the country.
These principles advise police to take overall photos at a scene, mid-range photos and close-ups of physical evidence.
"The idea of not photographing the evidence in the Steven Avery case, you just can't escape that," Turvey said. "It is either because of apathy, you just don't care, or corruption, they are willfully depriving the investigation of evidence in order to obscure the truth. It is not lack of training.
"Taking photos at a death scene is not some mysterious art form," Turvey added. "The question is: 'Why didn't they do it in this particular case?'"
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/06/28/absence-photos-mars-avery-investigation/86031274/
BBM, Do you have a source that says they did find such evidence of lead in the pit?
proudfootz
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Until some evidence emerges that there was a body with bullets in it burned there (e.g. bullets), then I have no rational reason to accept a claim that any such body was burned there.
It's just that simple.
If TH's skull fragments were found in the Avery fire pit and the fragment/s had traces of lead, that would mean that part of the bullet/s melted with the heat of the fire. Wouldn't or couldn't some of the lead have leaked out of the fragments if broken up, as the skull would of been or it would have been whole?
And where are the bullet jackets? Aren't the jackets made of copper, and the copper like the rivets would survive the heat of the fire?
And where are the bullet jackets? Aren't the jackets made of copper, and the copper like the rivets would survive the heat of the fire?
Did I ever make that claim? It appears to me that Proudfootz is claiming she wasn't burned there because he claims no lead is found in the burn pit, yet he has no evidence to support this claim. The DCI records and Wisconsin Crime Lab records hold the answer to this question, but as of today these records remain unavailable. The matter wasn't brought up at trial either. Maybe because this wasn't part of B&S' plan, or maybe they didn't see a lead here (pun intended) for framing, since they did had those records available. My opinion is that it's anyone's guess until those records become available.
I believe there were also other items burned, and some of those would have lead in them. Tire rims, for example, which Dassey at trial said were burned there. So my guess is lead would've been found anyway, yet no mention of it in the records we do have available.
noted. A claim relying on the unavailability of the evidence of the main parties involved.