Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[TL4S]

Yah I have always thought that they had a partial dna profile at best. The problem with partial Dna is that it can match to thousands of people. JMO

ETA I'm not convinced that Dna evidence is going to be what breaks this case open. I think its going to be one of those deals where something is said by BG when he's drunk or off the cuff and somebody reports it to LE. Or that somebody that is close with BG feels wronged in some way and spills the beans to LE after they no longer have ties to BG.

ETA or if it is dna its going to be some kind of new technology that replicates partial DNA profiles etc.

Agreed. I think if DNA was going to break this case anytime soon, LE wouldn't just be discussing these broader and familial DNA options, they'd be doing them.

 

[ab01]

Agreed. I think if DNA was going to break this case anytime soon, LE wouldn't just be discussing these broader and familial DNA options, they'd be doing them.

Yeah there's obviously something that is limiting their options and one can only assume that they don't have the evidence that they need to move the investigation forward(duh i know its redundant). I have always been under the impression that the evidence in this case was never as strong as what many have believed or even with what LE wanted BG to believe. ETA: I think there has been a lot of bluffing by investigators in this case, hence the many confusing statements made by LE.

 

[Brubon]

Agreed. I think if DNA was going to break this case anytime soon, LE wouldn't just be discussing these broader and familial DNA options, they'd be doing them.

Hopefully LE is having familial DNA options put in place, quietly, while we tap our feet wondering if it will ever happen. They would certainly not announce to the public that they are tracing some family's DNA.
Patience....we just need an infinite supply of patience.
MOO

 

[ab01]

Hopefully LE is having familial DNA options put in place, quietly, while we tap our feet wondering if it will ever happen. They would certainly not announce to the public that they are tracing some family's DNA.
Patience....we just need an infinite supply of patience.
MOO

With the amount of national attention that this case generated, they would have been using all available resources long ago. While tracking down individuals via familiar dna does takes time, it would have been completed long ago. They want to solve this case as quickly as possible.. This case is a huge weight on the shoulders for many agencies involved. There is nothing that leads me to believe that its a viable option at this point in this case. JMO People always want to point to past cases that have been solved via Familiar dna and how long it took for justice. But in those cases they took so long to solve bc they didn't have that technology until many years later. It's simply just not a viable option in this case.

 

[Brubon]

Since Cece Moore works with Parabon on "cold cases" it might be helpful if DC reclassified Abby&Libby's murder case as a "cold case." A year ago he said it was not a cold case. How about now?
If that classification is one requirement to get Cece Moore to get involved in finding BG, let's reclassify.
MOO

 

[cujenn81]

I know that Carter believes this is about power for BG (for whatever reason) and that most people agree with his assessment. I wonder if there's a specific evidence based reason that he believes this or if he's basing that on statistics and likelihood. I think it's important to remember that not every killer cares about power and/or recognition. Some kill just for the "thrill" of it, or to satisfy some "craving" or "urge" they feel, and they couldn't care less about the victims or how the public reacts to the crimes. They kill and then carry on with their life without a second thought. I mention Pee Wee Gaskins on here quite often because I've read a lot about him, but he's a perfect example of this type of killer. He would begin to get what he referred to as "bothersome feelings". To make the feelings go away, he would find a victim (or victims -- sometimes there were two) by picking up hitchhikers and killing them. He didn't know most of their names and wasn't even sure how many people he killed. He never really thought about his victims again, and this probably helped him get away with it for as long as he did.

Maybe that's why they can't find BG. Maybe he's not watching the press conferences or even thinking about these murders at all... and maybe that's the reason he hasn't slipped up or tipped anyone off.

 

[catch_22]

Assuming LE doesn't have the killers dna, it seems to me like it might be difficult to get a conviction at this point.

Say his wife contacts LE and says her husband told her he did it. Is that enough to convict? I don't think so. At this point, what kind of evidence would they need? And what kind of evidence could they get? I know this is an open-ended question with an infinite number of answers, but I think I am wondering more in general terms.

I guess maybe if the wife knew some of the secret details of the crime scene? Is that enough to convict? I don't know. I guess if he was found with any "trophies," that that would probably seal the deal.

What else could LE dig up? He bought a blue windbreaker shortly before the murders? His phone pinged off the tower in timeframe in question? So he was within a several mile radius of the tower? I guess it's possible that they could dig up his phone's gps data. Assuming he had a smartphone with him with the gps enabled.

I don't know. Sadly, I'll be surprised if this case is ever solved. That doesn't mean that I think they should stop trying, though.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Yep, solved them before most knew what DNA even was. I'm thinking they may have to here.

Yes, once upon a time, there were no fingerprints to rely on in criminalistics. And then, having read a book “Fingerprinting” by Francis Galton, an Argentinian policeman Juan Vucetich used it to rule in a suspect and rule in the true killer. And for a while, the system was exceptionally helpful, and dactyloscopy bases existed in every country, until the criminals did not learn, too, and started using gloves when committing crimes.

So a fingerprint left at a crime place is great, but without it, there were millions of solved cases. I think most relied on human factor, and this is what somehow prevents solving the case here.

 

[Charlot123]

in my opinion a new task force is most definitely needed. is DC hinting at BG being a serial killer? with the statement "we know this is about power to you." Isn't that something that is common factor for a serial killers' frame of mind? ...and attention seeker...BTK couldn't stand not reading about his crimes. Yes, to a new set of eyes - to oversee this case. BG has to be caught before he strikes again.

I don’t think he is hinting at the person being the killer. I do believe that they got some new information, but either the person providing it refused to be the witness in court, or, he or she died, anyhow, they are lacking a witness. I think at the presser, they are addressing their several POIs, and the portrait is a combined one. “You are hiding in plain sight”, to one suspect, “it is about power to you”, to another one (a young man, I think). I don’t give it much weight. Any killing is probably about power, lust or money, or all three.

 

[Charlot123]

Who could weild power, while hiding in plain sight? Who would have extensive knowledge of the forest, land, and bounderies, and know it Like the back of their hand? Flora,and fauna. Who know laws,such as fishing, hunting, boating etc? I think it could be a DNR person. They would blend right in, nobody would bat an eye at them being there. Nobody would suspect them because they are clean as a whistle no record.Nobody would question his vehicle being parked at a certain place,for any period of time. He's not the usual suspect. He would also fit right in with LE because he's part of their team, which would make it possible to fish for info, and be 'helpful' at the same time. He's a family man, religious, maybe even a fan of the movie the shack. MOO

Aren’t some of them volunteers? I am almost positive they are.

 

[Charlot123]

Yah I have always thought that they had a partial dna profile at best. The problem with partial Dna is that it can match to thousands of people. JMO

ETA I'm not convinced that Dna evidence is going to be what breaks this case open. I think its going to be one of those deals where something is said by BG when he's drunk or off the cuff and somebody reports it to LE. Or that somebody that is close with BG feels wronged in some way and spills the beans to LE after they no longer have ties to BG.

ETA or if it is dna its going to be some kind of new technology that replicates partial DNA profiles etc.

I think the LE knows that someone has the information. I used to think the mother was covering for the child, and in this case, the mother will cover till the end.

But today I thinking it is a woman, a GF, a wife.

Something I heard recently (unrelated) opened my eyes on one aspect of this case, too. We assume women cover for their men out of love, but most often, it is financial dependence. With the provider gone, they simply have nowhere to go, or stand to lose too much.

These cases are most hopeful. One day, the woman would say, “sc@@w you, and your money, I am out of here”.

ETA: another almost hopeless case if this is a member of a small religious community that holds the whole world as potential enemies and resolves issues among themselves. I doubt it is the case, but who knows. Then the only hope is some of the knowing members breaking communal ties.

 

[Falling Down]

Sorry I'm reposting this as I removed one to many QUOTE fields and my comments got merged into the original post.


I would agree with you JDough in the literal sense that Abby was unable to tell her tale, Libby told a little more, but with their remains found so soon after the crime was carried out, the whole story is there, it just needs to be read and the tale told. That is what is so frustrating about this crime, there is a full story here it just needs to be decoded and told.

Method, motive, signatures. We even have a sound track and visuals. What more could be wished for?

If a sex worker goes missing from near a truck park and is found months later in a ditch in the next state - that's a murder with nothing to go on and yet they do still get solved.

Agreed on the last paragraph.

I made an interactive map for unsolved murders in rural areas of this region of the country in late 2018. The chances of a body dump case like what you described (edit====>) being solved are about slim to none, one huge factor is time between dump and when the body is found.

Often times I've found a killer who dumps say along roads, on/off ramps, etc., will do it during certain times of year, on farm properties and the like. That way a farmer might amble along on their tractor and find the body, but by then it's weeks or months after the murder and dump.

This case drives me kinda batty as how it's almost, but not quite, the polar-opposite of that scenario. There should be enough evidence to solve the case, but there isn't, which I think tells us a little about the mindset of the killer of the girls. This wasn't a body dump, they were killed and left where they were killed.

Where they were killed and left is very curious and to use DA Ives' word "odd", to me. It's one of the most bizarre and unsettling cases I've ever read about and researched, it's not truly cut-and-dry to me. A lot of variables had to work in BG's favor for him to pull this off, even when we consider the secluded area where the crimes occurred.

I think our killer was confident and very sure of himself. This wasn't a quickie body dump out of a vehicle along an interstate or other rural road or area, this was an organized attack out in the open in broad daylight, in February.

But the Delphi killings have all the boxes filled. All except the one that gives a name and address, and LE want that delivered into their laps too, the 'one key tip' they are asking for. As someone said before me, EVERY crime would be solved with that 'one key tip' because it's the one that gives the answer.

I admire Supt Carter and Mike Patty's religious beliefs and their assertion that 'good will always win out over evil' (Down the Hill Episode 9- 31 min), and that they hope it will be resolved 'in our lifetime', but most of us run to a shorter timescale, and meanwhile this killer is still out there undoubtedly taking more innocent lives.

I'm sorry and I know everyone involved in this case is desperate to solve it but something major has to have been overlooked; and with no progress, IMO an element of complacency has crept in. Without a new set of eyes, be that a new task force or public information I cant see this case going anywhere any time soon.

Its almost as if they are resigned to needing another couple of attacks to identify this guy but given this killers vile MO and bearing in mind Supt Doug Carter speech at the second year presser ' We know this is about power to you' and 'How you left them in those woods is not what they are experiencing today' I don't think that there can be any justification for complacency. Somewhere, sometime, someone is going to lose their life in the the most horrible way, pity the poor potential victims. There is still no time to waste.

I've felt for over a year now that some one or some people either think a person in their lives is BG, or they pretty much know. Then the PC hit on April 22nd last year, someone has to know now. Someone or some people have seen that video, and heard the audio, and they know BG's identity. I'm afraid that's the only way this individual will be caught, unless he attempts to abduct, again, and someone is able to get away and the person is caught somehow.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Yah I have always thought that they had a partial dna profile at best. The problem with partial Dna is that it can match to thousands of people. JMO

ETA I'm not convinced that Dna evidence is going to be what breaks this case open. I think its going to be one of those deals where something is said by BG when he's drunk or off the cuff and somebody reports it to LE. Or that somebody that is close with BG feels wronged in some way and spills the beans to LE after they no longer have ties to BG.

ETA or if it is dna its going to be some kind of new technology that replicates partial DNA profiles etc.

I don't think DNA will have any effect on this case.

Some people will move heaven and earth to protect people in their lives that they know did awful things. Sleuthers and true crime junkies have seen it, time-and-again, in these types of cases. We all shake our heads and say or scream "How could they know and not say anything???", but at the end of the day it happens sometimes, and I try not to judge a lot of folks about it too harshly.

 

[Falling Down]

Assuming LE doesn't have the killers dna, it seems to me like it might be difficult to get a conviction at this point.

Say his wife contacts LE and says her husband told her he did it. Is that enough to convict? I don't think so. At this point, what kind of evidence would they need? And what kind of evidence could they get? I know this is an open-ended question with an infinite number of answers, but I think I am wondering more in general terms.

I guess maybe if the wife knew some of the secret details of the crime scene? Is that enough to convict? I don't know. I guess if he was found with any "trophies," that that would probably seal the deal.

What else could LE dig up? He bought a blue windbreaker shortly before the murders? His phone pinged off the tower in timeframe in question? So he was within a several mile radius of the tower? I guess it's possible that they could dig up his phone's gps data. Assuming he had a smartphone with him with the gps enabled.

I don't know. Sadly, I'll be surprised if this case is ever solved. That doesn't mean that I think they should stop trying, though.

MOO

Great post.

I'd imagine they would have to put who they think is BG, on the trail and the bridge that day, and at the CS. I don't know enough about that part of these "Whodunit?" cases to know how they will go about that, in this case, specifically. I'd imagine it will be a challenge.

JMO

 

[pearl]

I am still checking in here daily and praying for an arrest and conviction of the murderer of Abby and Libby. I still believe there is a strong suspect. I have no idea who but believe resolution is due to denial or holdout of one or more persons who know who BG is.

 

[SAMS]

in my opinion a new task force is most definitely needed. is DC hinting at BG being a serial killer? with the statement "we know this is about power to you." Isn't that something that is common factor for a serial killers' frame of mind? ...and attention seeker...BTK couldn't stand not reading about his crimes. Yes, to a new set of eyes - to oversee this case. BG has to be caught before he strikes again.

I believe what DC is suggesting doesn’t quite fit into a specific box. It’s not that simple. The perp that did this will most likely offend again, and this may not have been their first time. Serial killer, possibly. Predator that overpowered and murdered two young girls, hence making it “about power”? Absolutely. He got off on this. MOO IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don’t think he is hinting at the person being the killer. I do believe that they got some new information, but either the person providing it refused to be the witness in court, or, he or she died, anyhow, they are lacking a witness. I think at the presser, they are addressing their several POIs, and the portrait is a combined one. “You are hiding in plain sight”, to one suspect, “it is about power to you”, to another one (a young man, I think). I don’t give it much weight. Any killing is probably about power, lust or money, or all three.

When DC said "You want to know, what we know", he spoke to a certain poi, I think. I'm convinced, that one of their pois had contact after the murder and indeed wanted to know something, in a personal phone convo or via a mediator, who had perhaps even LE experience.

 

[Yemelyan]

I know that Carter believes this is about power for BG (for whatever reason) and that most people agree with his assessment. I wonder if there's a specific evidence based reason that he believes this or if he's basing that on statistics and likelihood. I think it's important to remember that not every killer cares about power and/or recognition. Some kill just for the "thrill" of it, or to satisfy some "craving" or "urge" they feel, and they couldn't care less about the victims or how the public reacts to the crimes. They kill and then carry on with their life without a second thought. I mention Pee Wee Gaskins on here quite often because I've read a lot about him, but he's a perfect example of this type of killer. He would begin to get what he referred to as "bothersome feelings". To make the feelings go away, he would find a victim (or victims -- sometimes there were two) by picking up hitchhikers and killing them. He didn't know most of their names and wasn't even sure how many people he killed. He never really thought about his victims again, and this probably helped him get away with it for as long as he did.

Maybe that's why they can't find BG. Maybe he's not watching the press conferences or even thinking about these murders at all... and maybe that's the reason he hasn't slipped up or tipped anyone off.

I think there's two ways to look at this question...one, there is the power that you seem to be referring to, that the killer gets off on recognition (from public, police) for his heinous acts. Second, there is the killer getting psychological satisfaction from having power over his victims in the moment of their death. I'm not familiar with the murderer you reference but I would venture to say that even though he couldn't care less about them and never thought about them again, killing them WAS providing him with that sense of power that he craved and was, in fact, the basis for his urges.

I'm curious too if Carter's statement was evidence based or based on a behavioral profile provided by the FBI, or both. I'm currently reading "Mindhunter" by profiler John Douglas and it's interesting to read the profiles he generated for other trail killers. He makes the point that a lot of killers are both attracted to and jealous of the power police have. I wonder sometimes if Carter's persistence in manning these press conferences and interviews is because he feels responsible/has become close to the family/likes the spotlight or if this is on the advice of the FBI who may think his presence brings out the murderer's feelings of inadequacy.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I just can't shake off that the April 2019 Presser was a punt, based wholly, or very substantially, on the work of profilers.

Local, due to a knowledge of Trail Area , if Local then two years of interviewing potential locals/tips is going to lead to being covered or someone close to, also if local it follows there's a decent chance of a religious background or upbringing or an innate Christian Guilt etc. The Nature of the crime/the selected victims/The Crime Scene (?) speaks to a power trip.... etc

It just seems a really dot to dot profile .

I also found it hard to completely differentiate between DC's delivery and affectation in this pc from several other intvws Ive seen of him on diff cases, Flora, a Fatal car crash involving a child etc. The language, phraseology and mannerisms are default. ( i like DC).

It just reeked of 'Ham'.


The only piece of it that I cant put into this neat, cynical, box is the release and focus on the 2nd sketch ( young sketch guy) . I do get a sense that the decisions taken regarding the PC and change of direction were not unanimously agreed. I also feel there is nothing left, certainly visually, probably audiably, that would benefit the case if released. Also true of all other aspects of LE knowledge of the case. ( would help sleuther's theories but nothing thst will increase chances of capture)

Just one tip..... sure.

I really hope its solved ASAP.

 

[Falling Down]

When DC said "You want to know, what we know", he spoke to a certain poi, I think. I'm convinced, that one of their pois had contact after the murder and indeed wanted to know something, in a personal phone convo or via a mediator, who had perhaps even LE experience.

I agree and think there is a very strong possibility the killer has been in contact with LE, albeit anonymously.

Could be a "hey did you find (the) "________""?

DC said something to the effect of "we know you want to know what we know" (paraphrasing), during the PC a year ago. That just might well indicate they know they've had contact with the killer, or I've thought they may have zeroed in on some social media or other internet posts which they think might be the killer. Or both contact and internet posts. Maybe even chatter in a forum? Text messages? ???

JMO