IL IL - Lane Bryant Murders, Tinley Park, 2 Feb 2008

[Userid]

You all have probably seen this before, but this is the best and most comprehensive write-up I've seen on the crime so far: The Lane Bryant Shooting — Unresolved

This quote from the article is particularly interesting (albeit, probably nothing new in terms of theories, but very logical).

Also, earlier in the write-up, the author mentions that the killer posed as a delivery driver for 15 minutes -- this sounds right to me, because I could have sworn reading (somewhere) that he posed around 20 minutes.

To expand upon the robbery theory, many have come to assume that this killer was a drug addict - or some other kind of unhinged individual who was prepared to do anything that morning to earn a measly $200 (including kill upwards of five women).

It's possible that the gunman was a drug addict, who needed money for a quick fix, and wasn't particularly looking for any long-lasting riches (and was seemingly unaware of the long-lasting implications). With this being such a botched robbery - taking close to an hour to pull off - and with the gunman quickly losing control of the situation, drug use or withdrawal is not out of the question.

It's also possible that the gunman didn't originally intend to shoot the women, having covered up their faces with undergarments to obstruct their vision. But perhaps he had panicked due to Rhoda McFarland's 911 call, and shot them knowing full well that the victims had seen his face and could describe him to the police.

This is what has been described by an unnamed source within law enforcement, who spoke to Chicago Sun-Times reporters Frank Main and Annie Sweeney back in 2008. They wrote:

"The intent of the killer was to keep robbing people as they came into the store."

According to this unnamed source, the gunman had planned to keep taking hostages as they entered the store, guiding them to the back room at gunpoint, and then robbing, binding, and isolating them as he continued this numerous times. It wasn't until he noticed that Rhoda McFarland had called 911 that he realized his scheme was over, and then:

"She tried to close the phone and he shoots her. Then he shoots the rest of them."

This seems to fit in with what we know about the killer, so I'm inclined to think that this unnamed police source was speaking from a place of truth. It's indeed possible that the gunman just wanted to continue robbing unsuspecting women until he literally couldn't anymore, but without the killer in custody, it would be impossible to prove. Same for the theory that he might have been a drug addict.

 

[Userid]

It’s not a known fact.
View attachment 233648
We know the police car’s position based off the dash cam (It’s the red line). We know Martha heard a siren 20 seconds into the call from this article(Investigators meet about Lane Bryant murders | ABC7 Chicago | abc7chicago.com). We know about the Doppler effect. We know Tinley Park’s city limits (GIS Consortium - MapOffice™). We also know the time the dash cam cop arrived from the time stamp.

Given all that I am making the assumption that she heard him when he was approaching the store going south on Harlem (blue). He could have also came off I80.

Couldn't it have also been the Target cop she heard? That was the first to arrive on the scene.

 

[flgrl017]

Couldn't it have also been the Target cop she heard? That was the first to arrive on the scene.

It could have been but she heard it ~20 seconds into the call so wouldn’t Target cop have caught him or at least seen the suv leaving.

He was on a call. My question is what is the protocol for taking an officer off a call and sending them to another?

 

[Userid]

It could have been but she heard it ~20 seconds into the call so wouldn’t Target cop have caught him or at least seen the suv leaving.

He was on a call. My question is what is the protocol for taking an officer off a call and sending them to another?

That's why I think his getaway car was elsewhere, other than the front of the store. It would have been just as hard for Target cop to miss him in either scenario, in my view.

Not sure about the police protocol -- I was under the assumption that Target cop had just finished his original assignment, as he was already back in his police cruiser, in the Target parking lot.

 

[flgrl017]

That's why I think his getaway car was elsewhere, other than the front of the store. It would have been just as hard for Target cop to miss him in either scenario, in my view.

Not sure about the police protocol -- I was under the assumption that Target cop had just finished his original assignment, as he was already back in his police cruiser, in the Target parking lot.

I cant get past the timeline of the suv so I think it’s the getaway car. I’m going to also assume that target cop didn’t witness the suv leave or he would have pursued it. They just said on a medical emergency call in the Target lot. I’m guessing at some point during that call they would be willing to pull the closest cop off his call and send him over to Lane Bryant. Was it when the killer caught her on the phone? Was it when shots were fired? There would have to be some sort of protocol for it. Closet cop doesn’t mean that he was the first dispatched. I think the dash cam cop was the first dispatched and then target cop was taken off his call once it escalates to a certain point. I think the dash cam cop is the one Martha heard ~ 20 seconds into the 911 call due to everything I’ve already said in previous posts.

 

[Userid]

I cant get past the timeline of the suv so I think it’s the getaway car. I’m going to also assume that target cop didn’t witness the suv leave or he would have pursued it. They just said on a medical emergency call in the Target lot. I’m guessing at some point during that call they would be willing to pull the closest cop off his call and send him over to Lane Bryant. Was it when the killer caught her on the phone? Was it when shots were fired? There would have to be some sort of protocol for it. Closet cop doesn’t mean that he was the first dispatched. I think the dash cam cop was the first dispatched and then target cop was taken off his call once it escalates to a certain point. I think the dash cam cop is the one Martha heard ~ 20 seconds into the 911 call due to everything I’ve already said in previous posts.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree again -- just isn't our day today, haha. I respect your view though. There are too many variables/hoops I'd have to jump through to assume she heard the Dashcam cop before the Target cop, who was the first to arrive on the scene. There's just no way to know which direction and/or how far Dashcam cop came from -- he could have literally come from any direction, not just south heading north. What we do know, though, is where and how far Target cop came from.

Like I said, I don't know exactly how calls are dispatched, but I would assume that every cop/crusier in the immediate area would get the call. That's what their walkie-talkies are for, I always thought anyway -- so the call can be dispatched to multiple cops/cruisers, then a cop can transmit (via walkie-talkie) that they're the closest to respond, etc.

I don't think the gun shots would make the operator transmit the emergency any more urgently than she initially did. I mean, even without the shots, it's obvious that this is an extreme emergency. I think "Hurry" and the fact that the call was abruptly disconnected would have served as a sufficient enough alarm for the operator as is.

 

[flgrl017]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree again -- just isn't our day today, haha. I respect your view though. There are too many variables/hoops I'd have to jump through to assume she heard the Dashcam cop before the Target cop, who was the first to arrive on the scene. There's just no way to know which direction and/or how far Dashcam cop came from -- he could have literally come from any direction, not just south heading north. What we do know, though, is where and how far Target cop came from.

Like I said, I don't know exactly how calls are dispatched, but I would assume that every cop/crusier in the immediate area would get the call. That's what their walkie-talkies are for, I always thought anyway -- so the call can be dispatched to multiple cops/cruisers, then a cop can transmit (via walkie-talkie) that they're the closest to respond, etc.

I don't think the gun shots would make the operator transmit the emergency any more urgently than she initially did. I mean, even without the shots, it's obvious that this is an extreme emergency. I think "Hurry" and the fact that the call was abruptly disconnected would have served as a sufficient enough alarm for the operator as is.

I still think that dial tone was edited into the call. During the first 10 second part she doesn’t say anything about a gun, hostage, or anything like that. It’s just Lane Bryant, Tinley Park, Hurry, I won’t hang up so I would think once the killer starts yelling at her and shooting the 911 operator would escalate the situation. I have no clue how this works though.

I just think the logistics of target cop being on his way at 20 seconds into the call don’t add up. I think he would have saw the suv leave if he was already headed that way. We also know the killer was still in the store for another 15 seconds because we can hear him. I just think that if it was target cop she heard that the perp would have been caught that day.

 

[Userid]

I had mentioned a coffee cup earlier, and it's mentioned in this write-up. Unfortunately, the author doesn't provide a source, so take it for what it's worth. I feel it's credible though, because the author is extremely thorough and many details in the article have already proven to be accurate:

From there, the survivor was able to guide police to a discarded coffee cup, which had apparently been carried by the gunman on the morning of the shooting. While the existence of this coffee cup hasn't been confirmed by law enforcement, it is believed that investigators were able to obtain a DNA sample of the gunman through this coffee cup - in addition to the blood found underneath one of the victims' fingernails. Both of which helped confirm the gender and ethnicity of the gunman, but has not been linked to any known individual in the years since; a fact that itself hints at the killer being someone with no prior criminal history.

The Lane Bryant Shooting — Unresolved

 

[jbirner]

This was the first and only source to my knowledge that mentioned a coffee cup. We have always speculated whether there was DNA recovered and if there was could they use the familial DNA to track him down. This is one issue where the police are very tight lipped about and rightfully so.

 

[Userid]

I find it curious that the Target camera recorded an SUV in front of the Lane Bryant in the waning minutes of the crime, but didn't (as far as we know) record an SUV earlier when the killer entered the store. At no other time was the SUV recorded, which is very strange.

I know many if not all here believe that the SUV was the killer's getaway car driven by an accomplice, but then, why wasn't it recorded earlier by that same camera dropping the killer off?

I still can't help but think the killer moved it there himself from perhaps the back or even the side of the building in which Lane Bryant was housed; and the reason the drop-off wasn't recorded initially was because the killer's route to the store -- which could have been the same route he used during his exit of the lot. This route would have ran behind all the buildings in the complex and via Marketplace Road, hence why the SUV (if it indeed was the killer's mode of transportation, with or without an accomplice) was never recorded before the killer entered the store.

My point is, if the killer was dropped off, you would think the Target camera would have initially recorded the SUV/drop-off in some fashion, but the only thing recorded was the killer's exit, essentially.

We know that, if there was a driver, he obviously didn't know about the Target camera, because he picked up the killer right in front of the store. So if he was ignorant enough to pull right up to the store during the pick-up, there's no reason why he wouldn't have made the drop-off in the same vicinity -- but again, the SUV was never recorded doing so.

 

[flgrl017]

It takes pictures. It’s not constantly recording everything in the lot. Also his driver wouldn’t drop him off there because someone in the store would notice he wasn’t in a delivery vehicle. I think he was dropped off somewhere in the front lot to the side of the Lane Bryant front door (so the employees could not see which vehicle he got out of). I think his drop off car was either obstructed by snow, out of the view of the camera, or just not there in the moment the photograph was taken. I think he was dropped off and the driver lurked somewhere close and then pulled closer once he had been in 30 minutes. I think the timeline is too tight for that car to not be involved, and I don’t think he risks leaving 6 ladies taped up in the back to move his vehicle.

This camera is highly visible today and has been for the past 3-4 years. Not sure if it was in 2008.

Also I was there last week, and I haven’t posted this yet. It took me 14 seconds to get from right in front of the target to where the road meets the target lot. It took me 24 seconds to get to where the target cop was parked. I didn’t encounter any traffic. I’ll test it again if I’m in the lot when it’s it’s not busy.

 

[jbirner]

Agree that he was dropped off somewhere in the lot and walked to the store in order to help convince LB employees he was a delivery driver. I don't believe it was a coincidence that the SUV pulls up around the same time the killer was "distracted" and then left around the time of the shooting.

 

[Userid]

It takes pictures. It’s not constantly recording everything in the lot. Also his driver wouldn’t drop him off there because someone in the store would notice he wasn’t in a delivery vehicle. I think he was dropped off somewhere in the front lot to the side of the Lane Bryant front door (so the employees could not see which vehicle he got out of). I think his drop off car was either obstructed by snow, out of the view of the camera, or just not there in the moment the photograph was taken. I think he was dropped off and the driver lurked somewhere close and then pulled closer once he had been in 30 minutes. I think the timeline is too tight for that car to not be involved, and I don’t think he risks leaving 6 ladies taped up in the back to move his vehicle.

This camera is highly visible today and has been for the past 3-4 years. Not sure if it was in 2008.

Also I was there last week, and I haven’t posted this yet. It took me 14 seconds to get from right in front of the target to where the road meets the target lot. It took me 24 seconds to get to where the target cop was parked. I didn’t encounter any traffic. I’ll test it again if I’m in the lot when it’s it’s not busy.

Do you know how often the camera takes pictures? Every 10 seconds, etc.?

Question for everyone: when you say he was "distracted" by the getaway driver, how exactly do you mean? Do you mean he ran out to the car and conversed to the getaway driver for a period of time? I ask because we know if there was a driver, he never entered the store and never helped in either collecting items from the victims or the murders. Also, how long do you think he was distracted for?

 

[flgrl017]

Do you know how often the camera takes pictures? Every 10 seconds, etc.?

Question for everyone: when you say he was "distracted" by the getaway driver, how exactly do you mean? Do you mean he ran out to the car and conversed to the getaway driver for a period of time? I ask because we know if there was a driver, he never entered the store and never helped in either collecting items from the victims or the murders. Also, how long do you think he was distracted for?

I think every minute. We also don’t have all the photos so these vehicles could be in others. We don’t know. It would be easy for them to not be in the photos and still be close by since the cameras have limited range and there are obstructions in the parking lot.
We also don’t know that no one else ever entered the store. That’s your assumption. We don’t know for sure someone else entered either. What’s obvious to me is at the time the call is placed he’s talking to someone in another area of the store and I say that because of what I hear in the first clip that was released. I don’t think he’s talking to the victims because RM is able to keep her focus on the 911 operator. If she was caught at that point I don’t think she’s able to keep focus. Is someone else in there, is he on the phone, is he on a two way radio, is he talking to himself, etc? Sometimes I hear 2 male voices in the 911 clips too. Others have said the same thing when listening. I personally think the suv pulls up and someone got out and came inside and someone stayed in the drivers seat. I think that’s when he left them unattended and RM was able to work herself free and then call. I imagine it took her a little while (2-3 minutes maybe) to get free so she could call.

 

[Userid]

I think every minute. We also don’t have all the photos so these vehicles could be in others. We don’t know. It would be easy for them to not be in the photos and still be close by since the cameras have limited range and there are obstructions in the parking lot.
We also don’t know that no one else ever entered the store. That’s your assumption. We don’t know for sure someone else entered either. What’s obvious to me is at the time the call is placed he’s talking to someone in another area of the store and I say that because of what I hear in the first clip that was released. I don’t think he’s talking to the victims because RM is able to keep her focus on the 911 operator. If she was caught at that point I don’t think she’s able to keep focus. Is someone else in there, is he on the phone, is he on a two way radio, is he talking to himself, etc? Sometimes I hear 2 male voices in the 911 clips too. Others have said the same thing when listening. I personally think the suv pulls up and someone got out and came inside and someone stayed in the drivers seat. I think that’s when he left them unattended and RM was able to work herself free and then call. I imagine it took her a little while (2-3 minutes maybe) to get free so she could call.

Martha would have reported to the police if someone else entered the store. And the audio would have recorded the other person, just as it did everyone else in the store at that time, including the killer. Also, there was only one caliber of bullet used for each victim, so that would eliminate one reason why the driver would need to enter the store -- he didn't help in the execution. I think if he was on a phone or a two-way radio, Martha would have reported that.

I think it's impossible to know who he was talking to. The "Yo!" could have easily been directed to another victim (not RM); or it could have been directed at RM, but she just didn't realize it -- he was obviously unraveling and ranting the entire time (as heard on the audio), so perhaps she just assumed he was ranting to himself. I don't understand why he would have to yell "Yo!" to his accomplice -- his accomplice wouldn't have heard it if he was still in the car and/or outside, and the store is small enough that he would have quickly seen the back room where the killer and the victims were. The killer was very active in the store, so it's not like he would have been hard for the driver to find -- this wasn't a big store.

What do you think they were doing in the front of the store? If there were three people involved, why would the killer act alone from the get-go? Delivery people work in tandems many times anyway. I just don't see why the driver or a third person would wait until practically hour zero to finally get involved, and I don't see a reason why said person would need to get involved at that point.

 

[flgrl017]

Martha would have reported to the police if someone else entered the store. And the audio would have recorded the other person, just as it did everyone else in the store at that time, including the killer. Also, there was only one caliber of bullet used for each victim, so that would eliminate one reason why the driver would need to enter the store -- he didn't help in the execution. I think if he was on a phone or a two-way radio, Martha would have reported that.

I think it's impossible to know who he was talking to. The "Yo!" could have easily been directed to another victim (not RM); or it could have been directed at RM, but she just didn't realize it -- he was obviously unraveling and ranting the entire time (as heard on the audio), so perhaps she just assumed he was ranting to himself. I don't understand why he would have to yell "Yo!" to his accomplice -- his accomplice wouldn't have heard it if he was still in the car and/or outside, and the store is small enough that he would have quickly seen the back room where the killer and the victims were. The killer was very active in the store, so it's not like he would have been hard for the driver to find -- this wasn't a big store.

What do you think they were doing in the front of the store? If there were three people involved, why would the killer act alone from the get-go? Delivery people work in tandems many times anyway. I just don't see why the driver or a third person would wait until practically hour zero to finally get involved, and I don't see a reason why said person would need to get involved at that point.

I agree that Martha told them everything she knew. We just don’t know what Martha told them. Also we haven’t heard the entire call and most of what we have heard is highly edited.
Yo is a term used instead of hey or hi to get someone’s attention. It sounds to me like it was directed at someone outside the room in which RM was in and all the victims were in the breakroom. I don’t think she would have kept her focus on the 911 call if he was speaking to her or someone else in the breakroom. I think it makes more sense that he’s speaking to someone outside the breakroom.
We know he got into a scuffle with CW and was upset about that plus I assume, they anticipated on more customers coming into the store. Just the fact that he already had so many hostages, one had gotten feisty, and they intended to take more would be a reason for backup. Who knows how long this crime would have continued if RM didn’t call 911.

 

[Userid]

I agree that Martha told them everything she knew. We just don’t know what Martha told them. Also we haven’t heard the entire call and most of what we have heard is highly edited.
Yo is a term used instead of hey or hi to get someone’s attention. It sounds to me like it was directed at someone outside the room in which RM was in and all the victims were in the breakroom. I don’t think she would have kept her focus on the 911 call if he was speaking to her or someone else in the breakroom. I think it makes more sense that he’s speaking to someone outside the breakroom.
We know he got into a scuffle with CW and was upset about that plus I assume, they anticipated on more customers coming into the store. Just the fact that he already had so many hostages, one had gotten feisty, and they intended to take more would be a reason for backup. Who knows how long this crime would have continued if RM didn’t call 911.

I think the Yo could have been directed at the lady who put her hand on the door handle, but didn't end up entering. I posted that article a few pages back. Police said she would have been the 7th victim. I think the killer could have seen her either about to enter or perhaps as she walked away, and he yelled yo and ran out of the break room briefly to see what she was doing. Once he saw that she was leaving, he wasn't going to chase her, so he just re-entered the break room.

I think it's either that, or he yelled "Yo" at RM from somewhere in the middle or front of the store, after he had gone to see who was at the door -- and RM just assumed that he was yelling Yo at the woman who ended up leaving -- that's why she's able to keep her composure. RM wouldn't know that the woman turned around and left -- she would have assumed that someone else had entered and that the killer was yelling yo at that person who just entered.

 

[flgrl017]

I think the Yo could have been directed at the lady who put her hand on the door handle, but didn't end up entering. I posted that article a few pages back. Police said she would have been the 7th victim. I think the killer could have seen her either about to enter or perhaps as she walked away, and he yelled yo and ran out of the break room briefly to see what she was doing. Once he saw that she was leaving, he wasn't going to chase her, so he just re-entered the break room.

I think it's either that, or he yelled "Yo" at RM from somewhere in the middle or front of the store, after he had gone to see who was at the door -- and RM just assumed that he was yelling Yo at the woman who ended up leaving -- that's why she's able to keep her composure. RM wouldn't know that the woman turned around and left -- she would have assumed that someone else had entered and that the killer was yelling yo at that person who just entered.

She also had time to escape, get phone, and call so I don’t think he just ran out of the breakroom like that. That lady didn’t see or hear anything either plus we don’t know what time she was there. It sounds like a friendly yo to me like you would hear a friend use to get the attention of another friend. I don’t think he’s yelling at RM at that point.

 

[Userid]

She also had time to escape, get phone, and call so I don’t think he just ran out of the breakroom like that. That lady didn’t see or hear anything either plus we don’t know what time she was there. It sounds like a friendly yo to me like you would hear a friend use to get the attention of another friend. I don’t think he’s yelling at RM at that point.

The Yo sounds nothing but frantic to me.

I'm not saying that's when RM got free from her bindings -- that could have occurred earlier. I think she could have easily gotten free from her bindings without the killer noticing; and that the killer only noticed when she made the call (since she had to pull out her phone to dial 911 -- that's what he noticed). I think it's possible she kept the bindings "on" even though she had freed herself, until she saw an opportune time to dial police.

 

[flgrl017]

The Yo sounds nothing but frantic to me.

I'm not saying that's when RM got free from her bindings -- that could have occurred earlier. I think she could have easily gotten free from her bindings without the killer noticing; and that the killer only noticed when she made the call (since she had to pull out her phone to dial 911 -- that's what he noticed). I think it's possible she kept the bindings "on" even though she had freed herself, until she saw an opportune time to dial police.

We disagree on the yo. I think if he was frantic and yelling at her she wouldn’t have kept her focus.
I could see that if it was rope but not duct tape. I think that would be harder to make it look like you were still bound but really weren’t.