OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

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Hestia's Fire said:
I really don't think TA was that worried about keeping up appearances in terms of making it look like she was bringing the kids to the visit. She knew Veronica and Jilian were going to die that morning and therefore would never be able to tell anyone she wasn't waiting at Four Corners. I really don't think she expected OSBI or the FBI to become involved in the case. I think she imagined herself telling the local sheriff she had no idea what had become of the women and that would be that, as delusional as that is. She didn't see Veronica or Jilian as human beings of any importance; Veronica was just an obstacle to her getting to keep her grandchildren as she felt entitled to do and Jilian was just collateral damage. She must have been shocked when the story went global right away. I really don't think she expected it to be more than a curious disappearance on the local news that quickly faded into obscurity and became yet another Oklahoma unsolved cold case.
Click to expand...

Yep -- it's what I tend to call the "Patrick Frazee problem" -- he could not understand why there was so much interest in Kelsey Berreth's disappearance "because people go missing every day."

It's a dangerous fallacy. But we see it again and again.

And then it turns out that someone did care after all.
 
No person may be convicted of kidnapping unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, unlawfully;

Second, seizes/confines/inveigles/decoys/kidnaps/abducts/(carries away);

Third, another person;

Fourth, with the intent to (confine that person)/(imprison that person)/(send that person out of the State)/(sell that person as a slave)/(hold that person to service): against that person's will.

OCCA

okcca.net

A. If two or more persons conspire, either:

1. To commit any crime; or

2. Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime; or

3. Falsely to move or maintain any suit, action or proceeding; or

4. To cheat and defraud any person of any property by any means which are in themselves criminal, or by any means which, if executed, would amount to a cheat or to obtaining money or property by false pretenses; or

5. To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public morals, or to trade or commerce, or for the perversion or obstruction of justice or the due administration of the laws,

they are guilty of a conspiracy.

B. Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by law the punishment for conspiracy shall be a misdemeanor unless the conspiracy is to commit a felony.

C. Conspiracy to commit a felony shall be a felony and is punishable by payment of a fine not exceeding Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), or by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for a period not exceeding ten (10) years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
law.justia.com

2023 Oklahoma Statutes :: Title 21. Crimes and Punishments :: §21-421. Conspiracy – Definition - Punishment.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes
law.justia.com law.justia.com
 
ttjo said:
He quoted Aristotle "
" In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place; it is the moral duty of individuals to uphold what is right, despite societal norms. "
he gave that quote a whole new meaning.
oh... and he forgot to update his "life events" maybe someone will do that for him since he won't be around to do it himself. you know, Just in case his friends wonder where he is. Oh thats right, they're all in there with him.
Click to expand...

I mean, he's fatally misunderstood that quote.

Aristotle would not, I suspect, endorse the senseless murder of young and defenceless persons in order to "win" a custody battle as correct or useful moral practice.

I strongly suspect that TA had marshalled a "grooming" narrative and that these quartet will paint themselves as "warriors for children" willing to do what had to be done to save them from the evil predations of maternal custody.
 
imstilla.grandma said:
No person may be convicted of kidnapping unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:

First, unlawfully;

Second, seizes/confines/inveigles/decoys/kidnaps/abducts/(carries away);

Third, another person;

Fourth, with the intent to (confine that person)/(imprison that person)/(send that person out of the State)/(sell that person as a slave)/(hold that person to service): against that person's will.

OCCA

okcca.net

A. If two or more persons conspire, either:

1. To commit any crime; or

2. Falsely and maliciously to indict another for any crime, or to procure another to be charged or arrested for any crime; or

3. Falsely to move or maintain any suit, action or proceeding; or

4. To cheat and defraud any person of any property by any means which are in themselves criminal, or by any means which, if executed, would amount to a cheat or to obtaining money or property by false pretenses; or

5. To commit any act injurious to the public health, to public morals, or to trade or commerce, or for the perversion or obstruction of justice or the due administration of the laws,

they are guilty of a conspiracy.

B. Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by law the punishment for conspiracy shall be a misdemeanor unless the conspiracy is to commit a felony.

C. Conspiracy to commit a felony shall be a felony and is punishable by payment of a fine not exceeding Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), or by imprisonment in the State Penitentiary for a period not exceeding ten (10) years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
law.justia.com

2023 Oklahoma Statutes :: Title 21. Crimes and Punishments :: §21-421. Conspiracy – Definition - Punishment.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes
law.justia.com law.justia.com
Click to expand...
I suppose kidnapping requires that the women were alive when they were taken from their car. If true that there were puddles of blood outside the car, that means that they were alive and bleeding when they were taken out of their car. I suppose that is sufficient to establish kidnapping, even if they died from injuries 5 minutes later.

I initially thought that not only were these murders well planned, but that the ring leader (Tifany Adams) understood digital evidence. Now I'm not so sure. If they used new trucks (with GPS), or had their phones with them (even if they were turned off), they would be fairly easy to identify.
 
Sincerely said:
I can’t help but think about what WR is thinking right now. IF, he was unaware of what his mother had been planning, it has got to be nearly unbearable being forced to stay in rehab with no communication with the outside world as all of this unfolds. Not saying I’m necessarily sympathetic toward him just interested in his mindset right now.
Click to expand...
I wonder if he even knows any of this. Can you imagine getting out of rehab and then finding out? Surely his care team has plans for inform him and help him.
 
doublestop said:
I wonder if he even knows any of this. Can you imagine getting out of rehab and then finding out? Surely his care team has plans for inform him and help him.
Click to expand...
Oh I have no doubt he knows. I looked at the facility and it’s not like it’s shut off from the world. He’d have access to tv and his family.
 
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