Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[JLZ]

Greg Lynn jury told to continue deliberations after question over unanimous verdict

A note from the jury read in part: "What happens if we are unable to reach a unanimous decision?"

www.abc.net.au

""Of course, if you did reach a point where you could not unanimously agree on your verdicts, you could send me a note and I could discuss it with counsel and I'll answer it at that point," he told the jury"

That sounds like if they did reach that point finally, then they might not be told to try again.
And the Judge after discussing with counsel would have to decide what would happen.

What's the bet that the Judge receives that note before too long.

“I’d ask you to go back and consider your verdicts further,” Croucher told the jurors.

Jury’s motive query in missing campers murder trial

The jury in the trial of Gregory Lynn have asked the judge what happens if they can’t reach a unanimous verdict.

www.theage.com.au

I believe it's mandatory for the judge to tell the jury to try again--after they say they definitely can't agree. There are specific words for the judge to use. If they come back a second time and still say they can never agree, that's different. They haven't told him for the first time yet. "What if" doesn't count.

 

[mam544]

Shots were supposedly fired in the air before the scuffle. Considering that it's not beyond belief it was cocked and ready to fire when the scuffle broke out. The 4kg trigger pull would be irrelevant in the scuffle scenario. The average males grip strength is 46kg. Factor in someone else pulling the opposite direction and 4kg is nothing.

From what I've seen in the case the main difference in the gun being set up for a left handed person is the sights. Also irrelevant in the scuffle scenario.

Again I'm not trying to make an argument for this being the case just verbalising what I would be asking if I was in the juries position and imo the prosecution has left too many questions unanswered.

As it happens, I bought a .22 pistol last week. The trigger pull was 7kg. It almost needed two fingeres on the trigger to make it fire. It's at the gunsmith right now getting worked on. Around 4kg is high and 2-3 is optimal.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Re Russell being "bent backwards".

I've been following from the beginning too and have never heard that mentioned before.

Russell must have been very flexible, not to mention really strong to fire that weapon.

 

[SouthAussie]

Seems that, today, the jury also asked the judge what role motive may play in their decision making.

They were told that the prosecution did not have to establish any motive, and he reminded them that they must consider the two murder charges separately.

Jury’s motive query in missing campers murder trial

The jury in the trial of Gregory Lynn have asked the judge what happens if they can’t reach a unanimous verdict.

www.theage.com.au

 

[SouthAussie]

Re Russell being "bent backwards".

I've been following from the beginning too and have never heard that mentioned before.

Russell must have been very flexible, not to mention really strong to fire that weapon.

Maybe that is why Lynn initially said that Carol was hit by a ricochet. Because he couldn't make the required angle of fire fit with his story.

Then, perhaps, somewhere along the line he realised that a shotgun shot would have blasted right through the mirror, so he dropped the ricochet part.

He must have been sweating, trying to work out what things forensics could and could not determine.

imo

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm surprised that the jurors didn't know right from the beginning that the two charges were separate.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Can you list the circumstantial evidence you believe points to a double murder?

If you haven't been following the case I'm not going to recreate it for you.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Seems that, today, the jury also asked the judge what role motive may play in their decision making.

They were told that the prosecution did not have to establish any motive, and he reminded them that they must consider the two murder charges separately.

Motive was a discussion point in the thread some time back and to whoever it was that was resting their argument on Lynn not having a motive. Guess what? He doesn't need to have had one.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

I'm surprised that the jurors didn't know right from the beginning that the two charges were separate.

Likewise. Perhaps initially that wasn't an option on the table for them?

Maybe now, when it sounds perhaps like they may have agreed on one murder and be hung on the other, the judge has seen fit to separate the 2 charges? Guessing here. Help me out...

 

[JBowie]

Why haul a trailer into the bush?

Lynn is a deer hunter so he has to remove any carcass, either butchered on site or delivered whole to a butcher. So, IMO, that (missing) trailer was familiar with carting things that have been shot dead.

 

[JLZ]

Likewise. Perhaps initially that wasn't an option on the table for them?

Maybe now, when it sounds perhaps like they may have agreed on one murder and be hung on the other, the judge has seen fit to separate the 2 charges? Guessing here. Help me out...

No. I think there was maybe one juror who thought 'unanimous' meant the same verdict for both cases, and the other jurors couldn't convince him otherwise.

 

[JBowie]

Likewise. Perhaps initially that wasn't an option on the table for them?

Maybe now, when it sounds perhaps like they may have agreed on one murder and be hung on the other, the judge has seen fit to separate the 2 charges? Guessing here. Help me out...

Lynn was always charged with two murders. I guess the jury got confused on whether they could separate them.

It sounds to me like the jury -- or some member/s -- have reached a place that I suggested a while back may occur: Accidental killing (i.e. manslaughter) of one and deliberate killing of the other.

With manslaughter off the table, IMO they seem to be between the proverbial rock and hard place.

If minority verdicts are not allowed, then maybe here comes a hung jury and a mistrial.

 

[SouthAussie]

No. I think there was maybe one juror who thought 'unanimous' meant the same verdict for both cases, and the other jurors couldn't convince him otherwise.

I am thinking the same about the motive question. Maybe someone is saying "but why would Lynn kill them?" And so the foreperson dragged them all in front of the judge and let the judge explain that no motive is required.

I think one or some of the jurors may be getting befuddled and confused, and is having difficulty keeping the basic elements straight.

imo

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Lynn was always charged with two murders. I guess the jury got confused on whether they could separate them.

It sounds to me like the jury -- or some member/s -- have reached a place that I suggested a while back may occur: Accidental killing (i.e. manslaughter) of one and deliberate shooting of the other.

With manslaughter off the table, IMO they seem to be between the proverbial rock and hard place.

If minority verdicts are not allowed, then maybe here comes a hung jury and a mistrial.

If they have reached accidental killing (i.e. manslaughter) of one and deliberate shooting of the other, that should result in one guilty of murder verdict.

 

[SouthAussie]

If minority verdicts are not allowed, then maybe here comes a hung jury and a mistrial.

Hopefully only on one charge, and not on both.

I can see why the prosecutor doesn't see how Carol's death could possibly be an accident.

And I can see how a jury might not be able to determine how Russell died. Unless they seriously weigh up the fact that Lynn obliterated the bodies, and that is most likely to conceal how Russell and Carol were killed.

imo

 

[JBowie]

Unless they seriously weigh up the fact that Lynn obliterated the bodies, and that is most likely to conceal how Russell and Carol were killed.

It is my hope and belief that a reasonable person would come to that reasonable conclusion based on the facts.

 

[AussieIan]

As it happens, I bought a .22 pistol last week. The trigger pull was 7kg. It almost needed two fingeres on the trigger to make it fire. It's at the gunsmith right now getting worked on. Around 4kg is high and 2-3 is optimal.

You can put 10kg resistance on a piece of exercise equipment and curl it with 1 finger easily. I tried it to see how hard it was myself. It was very easy so I don't know what to think about your comment.

If you haven't been following the case I'm not going to recreate it for you.

Of course I've been following it. I want to know what evidence you think clearly points to a double murder because it seems even the jury is struggling to see with your clarity.

Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference
EG: if an assault happened on O'Connell Street at 6.15pm, you can give evidence that you saw the accused walking down O'Connell Street at 6pm

Im curious how it can so obviously be double murder to you when circumstantial evidence is by nature not proof of anything.

 

[JLZ]

Hopefully only on one charge, and not on both.

I can see why the prosecutor doesn't see how Carol's death could possibly be an accident.

And I can see how a jury might not be able to determine how Russell died. Unless they seriously weigh up the fact that Lynn obliterated the bodies, and that is most likely to conceal how Russell and Carol were killed.

imo

But if one was a murder and the other an accident, it's not likely the murderer would remove and destroy only one body. Or do you think he might?

 

[JLZ]

Im curious how it can so obviously be double murder to you when circumstantial evidence is by nature not proof of anything.

By putting the pieces together and concluding that there's no other rational explanation.

 

[Puggo]

If you're convicting someone of murder I'd want over the top analysis. Much better than 'hmm well it's pretty unlikely so....guilty!'

Fair point.

The *exact* manner of death isn't necessary to be proven for homicide convictions- this was most recently shown again in the high profile conviction of Chris Dawson for the historic murder of Lynette Dawson. A "no body" homicide.

Murder of Lynette Dawson - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The whole self-defence claim of course draws the deliberation right back there.

MOO