Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

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Cliff Hardy said:
Having a higher than average IQ isn't an alibi. This is a one of incident involving the killing of two people. There have been serial killers with above average IQs.
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Agreed - it's not alibi. Jeffry Dahmer and Ted Bundy had IQ scores of 145 and 136, respectively.

I also think he's a malignant narcissist. I posted this before but I think it bears repeating because he ticks all the boxes:

A person with malignant narcissism may harm others to gain attention, feed their sense of superiority, and get what they want. For this reason, a person may also have traits of antisocial personality disorder. These include:

* disregard for or hostility toward the rights of others
* aggression and violence
* lack of remorse for harming others
* a tendency to lie
* breaking the law
*chronic irresponsibility
* impulsive or reckless behavior

Malignant narcissist: Definition, signs, and more
 
I’d hazard a guess that - psychopath or not - most of us have behaved in ways not reflective of our level of intelligence in a moment of anger or high emotion..

It’s pretty clear that Lynn had a temper and a high IQ will save you if you can’t regulate yourself in a given situation.

Someone else pointed out that he was used to being in control, and I’m sure in situations he could control he could be very calm and logical, but once a highly narcissistic person is triggered, all bets are off.

Biologically we can’t access our rational “thinking” brain when our nervous system is activated - that’s why the options are limited to fight, flight or freeze (and sometimes fawn depending on who you ask).
 
changintimes said:
And the alternative view could well be that if RH was making his way back to his own vehicle to lock up the gun taken from GL's vehicle (as stated by GL), the shortest route would have been to the driver side of his (RH) vehicle. GL explained to detectives (in the tapes just released) that RH had fired off two shots. GL also told detectives that he wanted to regain possession of his gun (and it is obvious that RH did not have permission from GL to take possession of the gun) and GL stated he had become concerned that RH may fire the gun at him; it is MO, that GL would have made his way around to the passenger side of RH vehicle (via the rear of that vehicle) and crouched down so that RH could not see him and at this time it would be likely CC was still within the RH tent. Then when GL considered the time was right, he then approached RH from the passenger side in an attempt to regain possession of his gun and that is when the struggle occurred. This would place both men on the left hand side of the guy rope (if viewing seated in the passenger seat of RH vehicle).

Note: At the time the two men struggled, and GL was demanding that RH return his gun to him, CC exited the tent after hearing the demands made by GL to RH to return his gun and I am sure there was lots of grunting and groaning and 'language', and she had become concerned and crouched down between the passenger side rear view mirror and the rear of RH vehicle. A shot was accidentally let off, striking the mirror assembly and hit CC as she raised her head to check what was happening with the men.

What I rely on for the alternative view, is the considerable angle the toilet tent is sitting at. Many of RH's friends have talked about how finicky he was when setting up his campsites IMO. I don't consider RH would have set up the toilet tent on such an angle, with the roof line skewed like it is it looks to be unstable. I consider this angle of the toilet tent shows that during the struggle the left side of the tent (as viewed in aerial shot) has been pushed back by scuffling feet or even by RH when he lost his balance (as described by GL). No one knows how tight the guy rope was tied on 20th either, or if in fact it was tied like it is in other photos.

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You're putting GL crouching to hide in the smallish space between RH's vehicle and his tent, while RH accesses the vehicle to put the gun away, which he doesn't do, from the other side. Then GL waits--for what?--for Russell to come back around the vehicle and trip over him on his way in to the tent? But instead what happens is the barrel of the gun appears over the bonnet. Not straight away. GL says he waited, and you say 'when GL considered the time was right, he approached. . . .' So what was Russell doing hanging about the driver's side meanwhile?

Anyway, they are still each on opposite sides of the guy line, towards the front (not the rear) of the car. And Russell is aiming the gun at his own tent. So maybe Russell has ducked under the guy line before pointing the gun diagonally back across the bonnet towards GL, and they wind up wrestling in the tiny space between the car and the toilet. It wouldn't be surprising if the guy line got pushed askew. How the toilet remained standing is the surprise. Carol comes out of the tent and crouches ridiculously close to the action, more so if GL is still basically on the passenger side. But from my reading of the interlocutory appeal, Russell remains facing away from the bonnet, with GL facing him, so there's still the awkwardness of pulling the trigger with the rifle pointing behind him, down and to the left. You say maybe he turned around without moving his feet, but, with the proviso that I wasn't at the trial and haven't read GL's police statement, such was not GL's evidence.
 
For Melanie and Geordie's sake, I hope they didn't watch 60 Minutes last night, but they probably did. They too are victims and would benefit from counselling. Melanie would no doubt have been unaware of all his other atrocious acts. Even if he appeals and is acquitted, there's no getting away from his shocking past.
 
changintimes said:
And the alternative view could well be that if RH was making his way back to his own vehicle to lock up the gun taken from GL's vehicle (as stated by GL), the shortest route would have been to the driver side of his (RH) vehicle. GL explained to detectives (in the tapes just released) that RH had fired off two shots. GL also told detectives that he wanted to regain possession of his gun (and it is obvious that RH did not have permission from GL to take possession of the gun) and GL stated he had become concerned that RH may fire the gun at him; it is MO, that GL would have made his way around to the passenger side of RH vehicle (via the rear of that vehicle) and crouched down so that RH could not see him and at this time it would be likely CC was still within the RH tent. Then when GL considered the time was right, he then approached RH from the passenger side in an attempt to regain possession of his gun and that is when the struggle occurred. This would place both men on the left hand side of the guy rope (if viewing seated in the passenger seat of RH vehicle).

Note: At the time the two men struggled, and GL was demanding that RH return his gun to him, CC exited the tent after hearing the demands made by GL to RH to return his gun and I am sure there was lots of grunting and groaning and 'language', and she had become concerned and crouched down between the passenger side rear view mirror and the rear of RH vehicle. A shot was accidentally let off, striking the mirror assembly and hit CC as she raised her head to check what was happening with the men.

What I rely on for the alternative view, is the considerable angle the toilet tent is sitting at. Many of RH's friends have talked about how finicky he was when setting up his campsites IMO. I don't consider RH would have set up the toilet tent on such an angle, with the roof line skewed like it is it looks to be unstable. I consider this angle of the toilet tent shows that during the struggle the left side of the tent (as viewed in aerial shot) has been pushed back by scuffling feet or even by RH when he lost his balance (as described by GL). No one knows how tight the guy rope was tied on 20th either, or if in fact it was tied like it is in other photos.

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changintimes, IMO you do not support the jury's verdict of "guilty" R v Lynn (Vic) - ie the murder of Carol Clay.
(Correct me if I have misunderstood.)

There are numerous points which you've mentioned in your posts.

You previously your position regarding "hearsay" (30 June 2024) - "...Hearsay does not belong in any trial" -
Hence, IMO your views would be unlikely to be based just on what someone else says, unless that could be supported by evidence.

Therefore I have surmised that your view regarding the above verdict may be informed by your own research regarding the various points which you raise, or experiential knowledge.

Could you please provide links to any of your research

TIA
 
JudgeJudi said:
For Melanie and Geordie's sake, I hope they didn't watch 60 Minutes last night, but they probably did. They too are victims and would benefit from counselling. Melanie would no doubt have been unaware of all his other atrocious acts. Even if he appeals and is acquitted, there's no getting away from his shocking past.
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There is also another son from the marriage to Lisa. The boys were aged 3 and 1 when their mother died :( I couldn't even begin to imagine what life will be like now for this family.
Not forgetting of course Russell and Carole's families, it is heartbreaking knowing that their loved ones set out to enjoy some time away camping, never to return.
 
Cliff Hardy said:
Having a higher than average IQ isn't an alibi. This is a one of incident involving the killing of two people. There have been serial killers with above average IQs.

An unarmed, elderly couple met up with an armed psychopath and only the psychopath lived to tell the lies.
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IMO I don't believe this was a one-off incident. I think there will be a whole lot more that will be revealed about GL. One thing is for certain though and that is that he is behind bars where he belongs and hopefully in protective custody where he has plenty of time to dwell on his evil crime/s.
 
If after everything and all appeals haven't panned out and if I was the one in prison for a very long time, I would not want my youngish wife or husband tied to a lonely life stretching on forever.

I would want my wife, partner or husband to move on and find love again, and have a life.

That is just me. Edited to say even if the people involved were much older, I'd still want them to not live their life alone and lonely.
 
TootsieFootsie said:
If after everything and all appeals haven't panned out and if I was the one in prison for a very long time, I would not want my youngish wife or husband tied to a lonely life stretching on forever.

I would want my wife, partner or husband to move on and find love again, and have a life.

That is just me. Edited to say even if the people involved were much older, I'd still want them to not live their life alone and lonely.
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If you were a real psychopath, you'd know: they will have no reason to be lonely. They'll be extremely busy visiting you, running you errands, feeling sorry for you and demonstrating their extreme devotion. Who is the victim after all?
 
TootsieFootsie said:
Kind of a coincidence that Lisa was found dead in the garden, where at least one time before her now ex husband had trussed her up and left her after soaking her with the hose.
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Yes and in the fetal position too - just how one pictures a person who has had their wrists & ankles bound, the way Greg did to Lisa the night he hosed her down.

Edit: I just googled “trussed up” and realised it means ‘tied up like a chicken prior to cooking’

I’m not sure if my age has anything to do with it but I can’t recall hearing that term before :)
 
changintimes said:
What I rely on for the alternative view, is the considerable angle the toilet tent is sitting at. I don't consider RH would have set up the toilet tent on such an angle, with the roof line skewed like it is it looks to be unstable.
View attachment 514608
Click to expand...

Here's a much better image of the toilet tent. There is no angle between the side of the toilet tent and the car.

Toilet tent.JPG
Link
 
I have heard the term "trussed up" many times in crime cases.

I actually have only ever heard it in context of someone being tied up.


TRUSSED | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary​

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/trussed
-/trʌs/ (also truss up) to tie the arms and legs of someone together tightly and roughly with rope to prevent them from moving or escaping: Police said the couple had been trussed up and robbed before being shot. to prepare a bird for cooking by tying its wings and legs to its body.



Trussed up - Idioms by The Free Dictionary​

To tie or bind someone or something, either to restrict movement or form a bundle. A noun or pronoun can be used between "truss" and "up.
 
Cliff Hardy said:
You are going against the train of thought everywhere, not just here. I am yet to find anyone anywhere who is thinking along similar lines to you.

That Lynn murdered Carol Clay is a given, regardless of who you ask or what you read. There are some varying views about how Russell Hill died though. But clearly Hill's first 'mistake' was meeting up with an armed psychopath like Lynn. If they'd never crossed paths he and Carol Clay would still be with us.
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Just wrong, I totally agree with many of the main points of the case.

I raised questions about areas I didn't feel were disproven enough or I felt left wriggle room for Lynn to get 2 not guilties. I feel the fact he did get halfway there somewhat validates revisiting and reassessing those parts of his story.


When I suggested an accidental knife injury leading to RH death was plausible (with plenty of precedent), the general response was 'really? 2 accidental deaths? How unlikely! Hes obviously lying'. Not exactly a convincing argument and I thought from a legal standpoint the prosecution had dropped the ball, so discussion would be welcomed here, not scorned.

I support the juries verdict, I was not raising points to prove his innocence like it seems some are taking it but so we could discuss how they were wrong and be sure of a rock solid conviction.

As for CC being murdered a given, that is wrong on a fundamental level, being convicted of a crime by 12 of your peers does not mean the crime happened. Lynn is the only one on the planet who knows if it is given, certainly not you or I. Again, I'm fine with the verdict but I can also admit I don't know what happened. Not sure why that's so hard.
 
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