John Ramsey: Knots, Knowledge, and Know-how.

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Yes, BR did get very animated and excited about the press attention. In a more normal situation I too would find this odd given the circumstances that it surrounded the death of his sister. I do think it underscores that he felt she got all the attention and this is a sign that bothered him. I also recall the drawing he made not that long after the murder, and it was just him and his parents, no JonBenet. He moved on very quickly from her death. And while I don't think he hated her, I do think that he resented her presence. When she came along the attention shifted from him to her. John was not around much and even when he was, he was preoccupied by work. I also think he was emotionally distant. Patsy was very preoccupied with the pageant stuff and everything else she had her hands into. The house was neglected and so was Burke. It feels like he may have felt a sense of relief that she was gone, and that now things could return to "normal", as it was before she came along.

We do know that he saw a psychiatrist after the murder, and that was framed as a step to help him cope with what had happened, which of course makes total sense in general. That said, I've always wondered if he was under psychiatric care for other issues which could no longer be swept under the rug and ignored.

It caught my attention as to how many years he saw a psychiatrist after his sisyer died. Typically psychiatry is about diagnosing and treatment. Therapist are usually for more talk therapy.
Can we believe what we were told regarding why BR saw a psychiatrist?

 

[CloudedTruth]

It caught my attention as to how many years he saw a psychiatrist after his sisyer died. Typically psychiatry is about diagnosing and treatment. Therapist are usually for more talk therapy.
Can we believe what we were told regarding why BR saw a psychiatrist?

Cab we believe anything the R's put out?

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Cab we believe anything the R's put out?

Precisely!

 

[proust20]

@CloudedTruth

Thanks for the info about BR having two knives. I thought that the knife found on the countertop outside JonBenet's room was from the dining room? Isn't this also the same place where the cupboard was that LHP used to hide the Swiss Army knife? If there were another knife discovered in the basement laundry area, it should be remembered that LHP said that the white blanket was in the dryer there.

When it comes to sequence of head blow and asphyxiation, it must be considered which would make sense to cover up for the other. An important factor is the forty minutes+ between both events. I agree that the chronic SA provides the best motive for such a brutal crime. The head blow does not fit easily into what had been happening consistently to JB, whereas the asphyxiation does. If she died accidentally during an erotic game, as Dr. Wecht commented, then the head blow could have been delivered as a way to distract from what was transpiring with JB, both that night and previously. This also better explains the time gap IMO, as well as playing into the IDI scenario of the RN. If the head blow were an accident, why then go through the grotesque use of the ligature later on? (It was not really a garotte.) The head injury, which did not bleed visibly, was not the cause of death, and in a way, it was superfluous. Although, LE has been vague about the evidence, it has been suggested that part of the paintbrush was used in the final assault. Needless to add, it is not known what weapon caused the head injury.

This inevitably begs the question if the abuser were also the killer. As the staging indicates knowledge of the SA, it is difficult to separate the two. Dr. Beuf conveniently destroyed his files. Patsy could not remember why she called him numerous times in one day.

 

[CloudedTruth]

@CloudedTruth

Thanks for the info about BR having two knives. I thought that the knife found on the countertop outside JonBenet's room was from the dining room? Isn't this also the same place where the cupboard was that LHP used to hide the Swiss Army knife? If there were another knife discovered in the basement laundry area, it should be remembered that LHP said that the white blanket was in the dryer there.

When it comes to sequence of head blow and asphyxiation, it must be considered which would make sense to cover up for the other. An important factor is the forty minutes+ between both events. I agree that the chronic SA provides the best motive for such a brutal crime. The head blow does not fit easily into what had been happening consistently to JB, whereas the asphyxiation does. If she died accidentally during an erotic game, as Dr. Wecht commented, then the head blow could have been delivered as a way to distract from what was transpiring with JB, both that night and previously. This also better explains the time gap IMO, as well as playing into the IDI scenario of the RN. If the head blow were an accident, why then go through the grotesque use of the ligature later on? (It was not really a garotte.) The head injury, which did not bleed visibly, was not the cause of death, and in a way, it was superfluous. Although, LE has been vague about the evidence, it has been suggested that part of the paintbrush was used in the final assault. Needless to add, it is not known what weapon caused the head injury.

This inevitably begs the question if the abuser were also the killer. As the staging indicates knowledge of the SA, it is difficult to separate the two. Dr. Beuf conveniently destroyed his files. Patsy could not remember why she called him numerous times in one day.

The information about the knife that was found is confusing. The reports that appeared in the media about it were all over the place with incorrect information.What appears to be the most accurate is a statement from the detective (Kerry Yamaguchi) who reported finding it, and he said it was a pocket or paring knife with a red wooden handle and a small purple ornament that had broken off, which he found on the countertop near the sink in the laundry room in the basement. BR's knife was hidden in a cupboard in the laundry room that was located near JB's bedroom, which was on the 2nd floor.

IMO, the garroting (agree it was not really a garrote, which I think is part of the puzzle) was staging. I think there are a few scenarios that are possible that would explain the head blow coming first. An erotic game is certainly a possibility, however that requires a certain amount of pre-planning that under the circumstances I find to be improbable. My reasoning for this is purely the timing......the fact that they were leaving very early the next morning just seems like an odd time to decide to play sex games that were more elaborate than just basic SA and required tools. And I would also venture that most likely had not happened in the instances of prior abuse, EA is at least a few steps up from what most abusers engage in. As to why use ligatures, as I have stated it is my opinion that was part of the staging to make it look like it was some sort of pedophile who did this, part of the "it was an intruder" theory, as no one wants to believe a parent or family member would do that to their child. It was also key in trying to cover the previous SA of which they feared would be discovered.

And while the head injury was determined not to be the cause of death, even if they had rushed her to hospital it was severe enough that it is likely it would have resulted in her death at some point even without the strangulation. There is one other point with regard to the garrote, which while what was found does not actually meet the definition of a garrote as we have agreed, its construct was similar enough to have resulted in the same advantages a garrote offers over manual strangulation, which are no finger or hand prints on and around the neck which potentially could be used to identify the killer, and because of the tightness one is able to achieve by pulling the cord tight using the tool, death comes very quickly with virtually no struggling which would mean less suffering.

Dr. Beuf not only conveniently destroyed his files, he also never performed the kind of internal exam that could have possibly identified SA. Here is a family that presents on the surface as respectable, wealthy and church going, known in the community that was Boulder and traveling in the upper echelons of Boulder society. Of course we all know that means nothing in the overall scheme of things, abuse of all kinds happens at any level of society and in even the "best" of families. But it falls into the misconception that many have, and I think this applies to Dr. Beuf, that certain things are just unthinkable of certain people if they present that respectable facade. With the possible exception of family and close friends, until this happened and some of the surface layers of this family were peeled back, they very much looked like that "perfect family" to the world at large. And that was exactly how they wanted to be seen. Dr. Beuf was good at explaining away some of the concerning signs that were there, the multiple bouts of vaginitis, 30 visits in 3 years, etc. that could also point to the SA but that were not dug deeper into by the doctor. He relied on Patsy's word as to behavior and general demeanor, which is not uncommon. And the 3 phone calls within a relatively short time of each other on 12/17 that PR can't seem to recall do imply a sense of urgency. Teachers reported that in the weeks before her death she seemed unusually clingy towards Patsy. Taken all together there were signs that something was going on.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Burke Ramsey, Police Interview, June 10-12 1998 by Dan Schuler​

Burke on his knives
BR: I have two.
DS: You have two knives?
BR: I have one that says my name on it - it has Switzerland on it.
DS: Uh-huh.
BR: That one has a big knife, small knife, saw, corkscrew, screwdriver, flat head screwdriver, toothpick and tweezers. And I think that's it. And then I have another one that has a saw, scissors, it's got this little hook thing that you tie knots better with. Um, I said saw? A cork opener.
DS: Both of those Swiss Army knives?
BR: One knife is smaller.
DS: Where do you normally keep those? In your scouting stuff?
BR: I think I like (inaudible) and I have a little place for them in my room.
DS: Did you take them both camping with you?
BR: I just took the ---
DS: The one with your name on it?
BR: No.
DS: Oh, okay. So somebody must have given you that one, for a special occasion?
BR: My mom.

LHP on BR knife

Ramsey housekeeper doubts intruder theory​

Pocket knife hidden in cupboard found near JonBenét's body​

Associated Press​

A former housekeeper for JonBenét Ramsey's parents believes the location of a pocket knife found by police casts doubt on the theory that the girl was killed by an intruder.

A knife that Linda Hoffman-Pugh kept hidden in a cupboard on the second level of the home was found by police in the basement, where JonBenét's body was discovered.

But Hoffman-Pugh does not believe an intruder could have found it in the cupboard and left it downstairs.

"That (knife) showed up where JonBenét was," she said. "I would stake my life that an intruder wouldn't know to get that out of the cupboard. Someone took that knife out of the cupboard where I put it."

One detective who worked on the case and was familiar with Hoffman-Pugh's theory said it has merit.

"I think it's a legitimate area of concern that she has pointed out," the unnamed detective told the Denver Rocky Mountain News.

Hoffman-Pugh said she does not know who killed JonBenét, 6, whose body was found in the basement of the family's home Dec. 26, 1996.

Hoffman-Pugh said JonBenét's brother, Burke, who was 9 when his sister was killed, used to wander around the house whittling with his Swiss Army knife and leaving wood shavings behind. She said she threatened to take the knife away unless he cleaned up his act. He didn't, and about a month before the JonBenét's slaying, she took away the knife and put it in a cupboard over a sink near JonBenét's room.

Hoffman-Pugh said she did not tell JonBenét's parents where she put the knife.

A list of items removed from the house after a 10-day police search included a red pocket knife that was found by a detective on a countertop down a corridor from the small room where JonBenét's body was found.

Police have not disclosed whether they believe the pocket knife was used in the crime. However, the lengths of nylon cord used in the garrote and those found around the girl's wrists would have been cut into sections with a sharp instrument.

There have been no arrests in JonBenét's slaying, which is being investigated by a Boulder County grand jury. John and Patsy Ramsey remain under suspicion, but their son Burke, now 12, has been cleared.

 

[proust20]

@CloudedTruth

You make a good point about the timing of an elaborate erotic game in regards to the scheduled early morning flight to MI. But, the perp(s) went about much at a leisurely pace. Forty+ minute gap between blow and asphyxiation and at least twenty five to write the unnecessarily long RN. Besides, the abuser was accustomed to taking risks.

I am not firm about the sequence of blow and ligature. I am only probing the less popular opinion concerning this aspect. Like everything in this case it is WAY complicated. Aside from the proper sequence, there is the question of whether the abuser were the killer, as well as whether the person who struck JonBenet also made and applied the ligature. Also, both the head injury and the fatal asphyxiation could have been accidental. She could have fallen. The 'game' may have gone awry.

In determining the order of events, it should be considered which lethal method makes more sense as a cover for the other. The head blow seems a rather commonplace MO; while the ligature is anything but that. If the blow occurred first, why choose such a bizarre option as a ligature fashioned with of all things Patsy's paintbrush? At this point the pedophile-did-it angle appears: So, JB was struck but she was still alive. Whether this were known or not, it was decided to deflect from this act by essentially strangling JB to make it seem like a brutal sex crime. However, nothing except the R's eventual assertions point in this direction. The RN is supposedly authored by terrorists out for financial gain. The staging of the body in the WC weakens the pedophile idea. The size 6s were replaced with the size 12s, which were then covered with the long johns. Then JB was wrapped in the white blanket alongside the Barbie nightgown. None of this suggests a frenzied maniac. If the pedo angle were thought of by the guilty one(s), it was not reasoned through as the intruder would not leave the house without JB. He just redressed her and left? JB's bedroom shows no signs of a struggle, which could have been staged to appear as if it had.

On the other hand, the head blow could distract from the deadly 'game'. Since the SA was known to at least one person, it might have been thought that hiding this fact about JB was needed. This would be foolish due to the inevitable autopsy. But how clear headed could the murderer be after the crime? Subsequently, the Rs challenged the autopsy findings about the chronic SA and the pineapple. I do not think that the pineapple has ever been admitted?

 

[CloudedTruth]

@CloudedTruth

You make a good point about the timing of an elaborate erotic game in regards to the scheduled early morning flight to MI. But, the perp(s) went about much at a leisurely pace. Forty+ minute gap between blow and asphyxiation and at least twenty five to write the unnecessarily long RN. Besides, the abuser was accustomed to taking risks.

I am not firm about the sequence of blow and ligature. I am only probing the less popular opinion concerning this aspect. Like everything in this case it is WAY complicated. Aside from the proper sequence, there is the question of whether the abuser were the killer, as well as whether the person who struck JonBenet also made and applied the ligature. Also, both the head injury and the fatal asphyxiation could have been accidental. She could have fallen. The 'game' may have gone awry.

In determining the order of events, it should be considered which lethal method makes more sense as a cover for the other. The head blow seems a rather commonplace MO; while the ligature is anything but that. If the blow occurred first, why choose such a bizarre option as a ligature fashioned with of all things Patsy's paintbrush? At this point the pedophile-did-it angle appears: So, JB was struck but she was still alive. Whether this were known or not, it was decided to deflect from this act by essentially strangling JB to make it seem like a brutal sex crime. However, nothing except the R's eventual assertions point in this direction. The RN is supposedly authored by terrorists out for financial gain. The staging of the body in the WC weakens the pedophile idea. The size 6s were replaced with the size 12s, which were then covered with the long johns. Then JB was wrapped in the white blanket alongside the Barbie nightgown. None of this suggests a frenzied maniac. If the pedo angle were thought of by the guilty one(s), it was not reasoned through as the intruder would not leave the house without JB. He just redressed her and left? JB's bedroom shows no signs of a struggle, which could have been staged to appear as if it had.

On the other hand, the head blow could distract from the deadly 'game'. Since the SA was known to at least one person, it might have been thought that hiding this fact about JB was needed. This would be foolish due to the inevitable autopsy. But how clear headed could the murderer be after the crime? Subsequently, the Rs challenged the autopsy findings about the chronic SA and the pineapple. I do not think that the pineapple has ever been admitted?

I'm not so sure I agree that it was a leisurely pace. That to me infers that it was premeditated, which I am not convinced that it was. So if it was an accident, then one has to account for the emotions that occurred in the aftermath, as well as trying to figure out what to do with the situation that they are now faced with.

I know that some have argued that the marks around the neck ligature were made by JB struggling and clutching at it, which would be a logical and probable thing for her to do if conscious. However, the autopsy determined those marks were actually petechia.

I think there are many signs that some things were done in desperation and that the cover up was amateurish in some areas. The length of the ransom note and all the movie quotes, trying to make it believable but in reality doing the opposite. Wrapping the body in the blanket with her beloved Barbie nightgown nearby are classic signs of care. Juxtaposed with the brutality that had happened, these are yet again signs of someone being conflicted. As so many over the years, including LE have been able to see is the obvious contradictions present in the cover up that seem to at one moment point in one direction, and then at another juncture not pointing to a pedophile or even an intruder. Whether purposely or by accident, they managed to create enough confusion that the only thing clear to most is that they were responsible. One cannot overlook however, that without the protection of the high powered attorneys, the connections within the legal and political community, the very suspicious meddling of the DA and his office, the unprecedented amount of concessions made to the Ramseys while under the umbrella of suspicion, the PR efforts of misinformation and outright lies, there very well may have been a different outcome than we find today, which is no one being held accountable.

I do believe that the thought was to hide the fact of the SA at any cost. Her own pediatrician did not see it and defended his position that it wasn't happening vigorously. I am reminded of what has been said with regard to the pedophile rings that were rumored to be operating in Boulder. Whether that is believable or not, we know that these rings exist. One of the ways that they operate which has been reported on, is to have "holiday parties". The reason behind this is that the kids are not in school. The SA happens at such a party as a one off for that moment in time, giving whatever physical signs left of the abuse time to heal. Unless someone is well versed in such things, I think it's entirely possible that the perpetrator believed that by the actions taken that night they could claim the SA occurred that night as part of the assault and murder, thereby an explanation for what the autopsy would show. And they had Dr. Beuf in their corner denying that SA was happening in his observations. Naive and foolish? Yes. But I don't think it can be ruled out as a possibility. As foolish as challenging the autopsy results about the pineapple too. It was in her system and that was a fact. And no, they have never admitted about the pineapple even though the evidence of its presence both in her digestive system and in the house, which included PR's prints on the bowl.

 

[texaslb218]

I'm not so sure I agree that it was a leisurely pace. That to me infers that it was premeditated, which I am not convinced that it was. So if it was an accident, then one has to account for the emotions that occurred in the aftermath, as well as trying to figure out what to do with the situation that they are now faced with.

I know that some have argued that the marks around the neck ligature were made by JB struggling and clutching at it, which would be a logical and probable thing for her to do if conscious. However, the autopsy determined those marks were actually petechia.

I think there are many signs that some things were done in desperation and that the cover up was amateurish in some areas. The length of the ransom note and all the movie quotes, trying to make it believable but in reality doing the opposite. Wrapping the body in the blanket with her beloved Barbie nightgown nearby are classic signs of care. Juxtaposed with the brutality that had happened, these are yet again signs of someone being conflicted. As so many over the years, including LE have been able to see is the obvious contradictions present in the cover up that seem to at one moment point in one direction, and then at another juncture not pointing to a pedophile or even an intruder. Whether purposely or by accident, they managed to create enough confusion that the only thing clear to most is that they were responsible. One cannot overlook however, that without the protection of the high powered attorneys, the connections within the legal and political community, the very suspicious meddling of the DA and his office, the unprecedented amount of concessions made to the Ramseys while under the umbrella of suspicion, the PR efforts of misinformation and outright lies, there very well may have been a different outcome than we find today, which is no one being held accountable.

I do believe that the thought was to hide the fact of the SA at any cost. Her own pediatrician did not see it and defended his position that it wasn't happening vigorously. I am reminded of what has been said with regard to the pedophile rings that were rumored to be operating in Boulder. Whether that is believable or not, we know that these rings exist. One of the ways that they operate which has been reported on, is to have "holiday parties". The reason behind this is that the kids are not in school. The SA happens at such a party as a one off for that moment in time, giving whatever physical signs left of the abuse time to heal. Unless someone is well versed in such things, I think it's entirely possible that the perpetrator believed that by the actions taken that night they could claim the SA occurred that night as part of the assault and murder, thereby an explanation for what the autopsy would show. And they had Dr. Beuf in their corner denying that SA was happening in his observations. Naive and foolish? Yes. But I don't think it can be ruled out as a possibility. As foolish as challenging the autopsy results about the pineapple too. It was in her system and that was a fact. And no, they have never admitted about the pineapple even though the evidence of its presence both in her digestive system and in the house, which included PR's prints on the bowl.

A great look back reminding me of some things I had forgotten. I believe there was no intruder. I have always been on the fence about PR or BR.