Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #187

[TTF14]

And somewhere Libby's shirt was described as having fringe on the bottom. That sure doesn't seem to be the case with that shirt in the picture. It also looks like Libby is wearing black leggings in that picture, not sweatpants nor jeans. This tweet was also hours before they found them so information could be wrong...not nefariously so, just wrong. AJMO

This is the frustration many of us feel with regard to this case. Every time there's a discrepancy or something doesn't make sense, mental gymnastics commence to provide excuses. Instead of just taking the evidence as evidence and trying to figure out what happened from what's actually been reported on, it's always "well, it must have been a misspeak." But what if it wasn't? What does it mean?

I'm not trying to argue.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

I'm not thinking an accomplice at the scene but maybe images being transferred to someone via wifi...possibly.

DROPBOX

IMOMOO

 

[sunshineray]

I don't think there were any images attached to the Franks memo. Do you mean they were just referenced/cited? Like depositions were referenced/cited? And other items of discovery?

IMO MOO

No, during the discussion today someone said, IIRC, 8 or 9 crime scene photos were listed as footnotes but marked confidential.

 

[sunshineray]

This is the frustration many of us feel with regard to this case. Every time there's a discrepancy or something doesn't make sense, mental gymnastics commence to provide excuses. Instead of just taking the evidence as evidence and trying to figure out what happened from what's actually been reported on, it's always "well, it must have been a misspeak." But what if it wasn't? What does it mean?

I'm not trying to argue.

IMO MOO

I feel, IMO, they hadn't found the girls yet and were asking very emotionally charged and frantic people who tried to do their best in supplying information to get out there and help find the girls alive </3
I realized you weren't arguing, no worries.

 

[sunshineray]

The flyer put out during the search also said Libby was wearing sweatpants.
That information had to have come from KG and BP who saw them last. It was important information at that time so I think it’s correct.
Did Libby change clothes? If she changed in the car on the way to the trails or had a backpack with a change of clothes in it, KG would have known and no way, in my opinion would she withhold that information from LE with her sister missing.
So, was Abby half dressed in jeans? Probably, Gray Hughes saw the leaked crime scene photo and said that’s what he saw.
The question then is, are those Libby’s jeans?
I 100% do not believe anyone else was at the crime scene but Libby, Abby, and their killer(probably RA). But I 55% do not believe those are Libby’s jeans and I have no notions or ideas as to how that occurred. One possible explanation is I’m just wrong and I can except that, but it still won’t make sense to me.

Maybe Libby's "jeans" were those stretch jeans and they were black? That photo from Fox 59 looks like Libby's wearing leggings to me, so I'm thinking wrong and confusing info was giving before the girls were found. JMO

 

[m00c0w]

This is the frustration many of us feel with regard to this case. Every time there's a discrepancy or something doesn't make sense, mental gymnastics commence to provide excuses. Instead of just taking the evidence as evidence and trying to figure out what happened from what's actually been reported on, it's always "well, it must have been a misspeak." But what if it wasn't? What does it mean?

I'm not trying to argue.

IMO MOO

And at the same time, it feels like some people have become very dedicated to pet theories and try to shoehorn these theories in when there are much simpler explanations.

In my opinion, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One very early description that we know was inaccurate from the beginning without even addressing the pants issue (Libby’s sweatshirt was not mentioned, among other things) is not some infallible gold standard, sacred truth.

The options are essentially:

1) There is a vast conspiracy where the families, law enforcement, and the suspect’s own defense hide the fact that there was a mysterious pants transformation in order to protect… someone? from… something?

Or

2) The initial description was wrong and literally anyone with a stake in the case accepts this.

This isn’t mental gymnastics… in fact, I’d say trying to argue the defense, families, police all missed (or deliberately withheld) this huge thing to implicate only one person instead of more is the theory with more acrobatics here.

Sometimes there’s just not a grand scheme at play, and a very simple, minor, and understandable mistake is made by panic-stricken families.

All JMO

 

[TTF14]

And at the same time, it feels like some people have become very dedicated to pet theories and try to shoehorn these theories in when there are much simpler explanations.

In my opinion, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. One very early description that we know was inaccurate from the beginning without even addressing the pants issue (Libby’s sweatshirt was not mentioned, among other things) is not some infallible gold standard, sacred truth.

The options are essentially:

1) There is a vast conspiracy where the families, law enforcement, and the suspect’s own defense hide the fact that there was a mysterious pants transformation in order to protect… someone? from… something?

Or

2) The initial description was wrong and literally anyone with a stake in the case accepts this.

This isn’t mental gymnastics… in fact, I’d say trying to argue the defense, families, police all missed (or deliberately withheld) this huge thing to implicate only one person instead of more is the theory with more acrobatics here.

Sometimes there’s just not a grand scheme at play, and a very simple, minor, and understandable mistake is made by panic-stricken families.

All JMO

Respectfully, this goes against everything Doug Carter has said about this case. He said he's never seen anything like it in his entire career. Do we really think the head of the ISP has never seen a run of the mill child killing as some would like to believe this is? (This is Indiana we're talking about after all, and whew....it's kindof a cesspool!) And that he'd still characterize it as complicated, tentacles, hopes he can tell the story someday.....?

It IS complicated. This is NOT an Occam's Razor case. At all.

IMO MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

The perpetrator had LOTS of time. If you look at the Hughes video timeline from the PCA, wasn't there like 75 to 90 minutes between the BG video abduction and when BG was again seen out on the road heading towards the Harvester.

Haven't watched Hugh's timeline so can't say.

Don't think I've watched anything by him in about 4-5 years and may still not.

1 hour and 17 mins is 77 mins which is close to 75-90 minutes - it is a long time and especially in broad daylight with houses close by.

 

[TTF14]

Haven't watched Hugh's timeline so can't say.

Don't think I've watched anything by him in about 4-5 years and might not still.

Do not recommend. Frankly, I can't believe he's even an approved source here at WS. The mind boggles.

IMO MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

Do not recommend. Frankly, I can't believe he's even an approved source here at WS. The mind boggles.

IMO MOO

I'm not too keen on him to be honest, but didn't want to be rude.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Found this:
More specifically, police want to know if anyone recalls a hitchhiker along the Hoosier Heartland Highway, a person walking along a county road or highway, Riley said.


XXXX///////XXXXXXXX

We want to look at any aspect of what somebody might have seen," Riley said, adding that if someone saw a person throwing away a backpack, they'd be interested in tracking that down, too.


One week later, no arrests in Delphi killings

Maybe AW or LG did have a backpack that disappeared.

 

[m00c0w]

Respectfully, this goes against everything Doug Carter has said about this case. He said he's never seen anything like it in his entire career. Do we really think the head of the ISP has never seen a run of the mill child killing as some would like to believe this is? (This is Indiana we're talking about after all, and whew....it's kindof a cesspool!) And that he'd still characterize it as complicated, tentacles, hopes he can tell the story someday.....?

It IS complicated. This is NOT an Occam's Razor case. At all.

IMO MOO

It was certainly not the run-of-the mill homicide, and we see a lot of the insane “tentacles” that touched this case… from KAK and Anthony Shots to Odinist symbolism and potential cult sacrifices. I 100% understand why he described the case as he did.

At the end of the day, though, it still seems way more likely that a mistake was made versus everyone involved with the case overlooking the appearance of some pants and disappearance of other pants. Especially the defense that leaves no straw ungrasped.

I still waffle back and forth over whether I think there could have been another person, or people. I wish we knew more, but sadly, that’s not reality right now. What I do know is that even if another person was involved, them transporting another pair of pants (that was owned by one of the girls, nonetheless) to the abduction and murder makes next to no sense and would also seem to imply someone with very close access to the girls was involved, which is, frankly, gross and a pretty fringe theory at this point.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

The thing that gets me is why would KAK, via anthony_shots account, answered Libby's friend telling him what happened to her with, (paraphrasing) omg I was suppose to meet up with her that day but she never showed?

WHY even say that, making a connection to the day and the victim? Is KAK really that stupid to insert himself or was it because he thought Libby might have told her friend she had set up a meet with anthony_shots?

Either way there's that connection between Libby and KAK, who has admitted to LE he was catfishing with anthony_shots account...it was his account. He even has the google DNA searches, the post dated SM and the Delphi Marathon Gas Station directions search.

I'm perplexed as to why RA's defense attorneys have never brought up KAK and have gone instead with the fantastical Odin men. Must be a very good reason why the D doesn't want to bring KAK into it and why KAK got transferred almost immediately after RA showed up at Wabash Correctional.
AJMO

I think the D treats KAK like a hot potato ---quick, drop it, .....

Which is odd because KAK is a much more believable SODDI scenario than the Odinists, IMO.

All I can think is that maybe RA has some kind of connection to that KAK group of CSAM and the D does not want to go down that road ?

 

[MiniMoo]

Any mention of gray sweatpants?

On Page 29 of the FINAL DRAFT it only has Libby's sweatshirt and jeans on Abby's body.

I don't see any mention of gray sweatpants in the description of the crime scene.

 

[MiniMoo]

Maybe Libby's "jeans" were those stretch jeans and they were black? That photo from Fox 59 looks like Libby's wearing leggings to me, so I'm thinking wrong and confusing info was giving before the girls were found. JMO

Was thinking that last night when I saw what grannygates posted.

Jeggings I think are what they are called.

 

[sunshineray]

This is the frustration many of us feel with regard to this case. Every time there's a discrepancy or something doesn't make sense, mental gymnastics commence to provide excuses. Instead of just taking the evidence as evidence and trying to figure out what happened from what's actually been reported on, it's always "well, it must have been a misspeak." But what if it wasn't? What does it mean?

I'm not trying to argue.

IMO MOO

I think early in any investigation there are misspoken things that make it into the media. Especially since LE is now always so close-mouthed with details. Community wants answers but LE/Prosecutors jobs are getting convictions and making the community safer. But that's because of the world wide web. There's no more just little local reporters, it's global news now in an instant. Loose lips can now assure unfair trials and also destroy chances of getting convictions on some truly terrible beings. AJMO

 

[Salah11]

Kelsi German didn’t know when she dropped the girls off that she had to remember every single detail of their clothing because in a few hours' time they would be murdered.

Libby could have changed clothes before the girls went on the walk as she was a teenage girl.

moo

 

[MiniMoo]

It was certainly not the run-of-the mill homicide, and we see a lot of the insane “tentacles” that touched this case… from KAK and Anthony Shots to Odinist symbolism and potential cult sacrifices. I 100% understand why he described the case as he did.

At the end of the day, though, it still seems way more likely that a mistake was made versus everyone involved with the case overlooking the appearance of some pants and disappearance of other pants. Especially the defense that leaves no straw ungrasped.

I still waffle back and forth over whether I think there could have been another person, or people. I wish we knew more, but sadly, that’s not reality right now. What I do know is that even if another person was involved, them transporting another pair of pants (that was owned by one of the girls, nonetheless) to the abduction and murder makes next to no sense and would also seem to imply someone with very close access to the girls was involved, which is, frankly, gross and a pretty fringe theory at this point.

JMO

I really wonder if it was staged to look like a cult killing and could really speaking have been a copycat style set up. As in staging and posing the crime scene and girls to replicate or appear the same as other similar grotesque murders whether to distract, fulfil a sordid fantasy or to plead insanity down the line if ever caught.

Likely influenced and inspired by what has either been televised, shown in certain movies or written about in books.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

When all is said and done, RA is not going to be convicted or acquitted on whether those are jeans or sweatpants or leggings at the crime scene and how all the confusion came about.
It’s more a sign that the evidentiary hearings can’t get here quick enough for us all.

 

[mrjitty]

The part about the saving of blood for a future ritual was some very wild speculation. I am guessing defense added that tidbit to support their theory of a ritual killing. Why go there at all? I can again only guess that their theory is designed to distance RA from the motive for the crime, which goes something like this. If the motive was a ritual, it can’t be RA, because he’s not an Odinist, and defense did what LE allegedly failed to do and located the real killers - the Odinists. Of course, we have no proof of any ritual, let alone that RA is not possibly one himself.

It’s a look there, not here tactic. If the motive was SA, as many of us suspect, then RA cannot be ruled out simply by motive. Defense doesn’t want anyone to look at the simplest answer. The answer that doesn’t exonerate their client.

jmo

Right - but also specifically in this motion - it seeks a Franks Hearing. The Judge is only interested in legal argument and factual allegations in support of that.

If you start including wild theories for which you admit there is no evidence - is the Judge supposed to believe that is written for her? I was always a bit baffled about this. But I find the idea that Baldwin is trying to copy the Read strategy intriguing.

Over the years, the case came with ready made conspiracies he could tap into. Is this what MW was 'consulting' on?

MOO