PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[ForensicPatterns]

Surveillance video shows Ellen Greenberg's fiancé Sam Goldberg wearing shorts when he goes up to find her in their apartment.But the paramedic who was one of the first on the scene says he is sure Goldberg was wearing sweatpants when he arrived. Latest report from Philly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1837496322196189324

I bet dollars to donuts, it was him and he swapped out his shorts for sweatpants because who knows what was on his legs. Or someone he's related to looks a lot like him... who did this.

I'll be shocked if someone did this if there was an outstanding money debt on the fiance and off'd her all to get a payout and wash the debt clean. But I wouldn't rule this out as a possibility.

Also, regarding toxicology, anyone knows if anything was found in her system post-mortum that didn't dissolve, like a drug of some kind or could be an untraceable drug maybe, in case she was out cold and then taken out?

 

[ForensicPatterns]

including 10 to the back of her neck,

This is the most important piece of evidence because it's the same when they investigate a head shot and look to see if it is suicide or homicide based on the angle of the GSW.

I'm thinking, that because it was to the back of the head, this signals in my mind someone trying to cut the spine, creating immobilization. I'm wondering if she was face up or face down when she was discovered? Face up is just leaving her as she is, face down is not wanting to look at the person and feeling guilt for the crime.

What I'm thinking is... Face up, stabbed to the front, she fell or a fight ensued, she was knocked down or stabbed again then fell, so then she's face down, then stabbed in the neck to serve the spinalcord and paralyzed her from the neck down by stabbing her enough times, which clearly 10 did it. Then turned her over to make sure she was in fact dead by stabbing her more.

The fact it was locked the doors means no force entry, someone knew her personally, knew where her spare key was, or was aware of things not being all locked and snuck in. Then locked the door if they left. I'm guess if they didn't want traces of evidence, they would of worn gloves or wiped down finger prints off the weapon, the handles of doors, anywhere they touched directly with their own hands.

Which means we're dealing with someone who either works in law enforcement or military.

Anyone know if either her or the finance worked in either or had family/friends in either law enforcement or military that was over on the regular to handout with either one or both?

 

[ForensicPatterns]

The above talks in detail about the same stab wounds.

Parents of Ellen Greenberg believe new evidence submitted to the Philadelphia Attorney General’s Office will prove their daughter’s 2011 death was murder, not s

The 27-year-old school teacher was found dead on January 26, 2011 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

www.nbcnews.com

Dec. 26, 2021

He went on to explain that “this wound was not the last stab wound Ellen sustained because a knife was found embedded in Ellen’s chest when emergency personnel arrived on the scene.”

“We remain dumbfounded about how a person could self-inflict at least two separate stab wounds when dead,” he added.

That's because overkill is a sign of hatred, passion, or revenge. And when its the neck or groin? It's extra personal the kill as those are two very vulnerable areas on the human body.

I really curious if anyone has the ME written report, that's if they released it to the public from the first trial (even if lots is redacted), it will help paint a picture on any extra details about the neck stabbing, especially the angle will tell us HOW tall the person was based on this.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

https://www.lambmcerlane.com/wp-con...ew-details-in-the-case-of-Ellen-Greenberg.pdf

A civil suit reveals new details in the case of Ellen Greenberg, whose death by 20 stab wounds was ruled suicide. Attorney Joseph Podraza Represents the Family | Lamb McErlane PC

‘It was very, very weird’: A civil suit reveals new details in the case of Ellen Greenberg, whose death by 20 stab wounds was ruled suicide. Lamb McErlane attorney Joseph R. Podraza represents the Greenberg family.

www.lambmcerlane.com

I saw this in that article, the way he's describing it and how he DIDN"T notice the damn life sticking out of her chest... that's telling us a lot right there, highlighted in bold:

The operator then instructs Goldberg to lay Ellen on her back and take off her shirt. Goldberg, who noted that Ellen was already on her back, struggled.

“Her shirt won’t come off. It’s a zipper. Oh my God! She stabbed herself,” Goldberg says of the 10-inch serrated kitchen knife lodged 4 inches into Ellen’s chest. “She fell on a knife. I don’t know. Her knife is sticking out. There’s a knife sticking out of her heart.”

“Oh, she stabbed herself?” the operator asks.

“I guess so, I don’t know, or she fell on it. I don’t know,” Goldberg says.

The fact he says he can't unzip her, but then says afterward there is a knife sticking out... huh, how does one not notice a knife first blocking a zipper of a hoodie if she was already on her back facing you???

I know some people don't do well under pressure and freeze sometimes in troubling situations in the heat of the moment, but this feels like it's rehearsed his responses to the operator tbh, a little too something on the nose of pretending to act dumb about whats going on. I mean the guy at the time is a tv producer. I work in the film industry. I'm telling you that there is no way he wouldn't of noticed this big 10" knife sticking out, producers tend to when on set or in the control rooms for tv, are born to handle PRESSURE cooker situations 24/7!

This guy is either a psychopathic world-class liar or a fantastical actor who knows how to pretend being scared.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

So let me get this straight: a person beat themselves up until bruised then stabbed themselves 20(!) times in the back(!) of the neck, becoming paralyzed sometime during the stabbings but somehow continuing on?

What.

Either laziness or corruption on the part of the person who changed cause of death or their family and/or livelihood was seriously threatened.

100% I think it was the finance, my guess the overkill was a revenge or passion kill. I was talking just now with two best friends and my boyfriend about this case and said, cause it occurred to me, what was the finance doing before going to the gym, and if they lived in the same apartment, why did the doorman deny helping him with getting into the apartment?

I wouldn't be surprised if he murdered her, left her in the apartment, cleaned himself up, then went to the gym, called a bunch of times to cover his track, work himself up in a rehearsed state of panic to sound convincing over the phone to the 911 operator.

A psychopath has a shrunken amygdala, which means as a result they feel no fear, remote, guilt, or shame, they have no emotional empathy as well and an overdeveloped pre-frontal cortex which results in serious control over all their impulses and the ability to hide their nasty side from anyone they want and unleashing the nasty side when they feel it's safe to do so with unmasking. Hence why they can easily compartmentalize a kill, move on fast from the act, and go straight home like nothing happened. But they are extremely skilled at faking emotions to sound distressed, afraid, in panic, etc... to make anyone believe them.

Hence why, I wouldn't be surprised if the fiance is faking everything this entire time since the moment he left the apartment at 4:45 pm.

 

[arielilane]

Governor @JoshShapiroPA please respond to our request for an interview & listen to what the paramedic saw in Ellen Greenberg's apartment. Everyone I've interviewed says it's impossible she could stab herself 20 times (including in the back)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1838748458733441429

 

[arielilane]

I saw this in that article, the way he's describing it and how he DIDN"T notice the damn life sticking out of her chest... that's telling us a lot right there, highlighted in bold:

The operator then instructs Goldberg to lay Ellen on her back and take off her shirt. Goldberg, who noted that Ellen was already on her back, struggled.

“Her shirt won’t come off. It’s a zipper. Oh my God! She stabbed herself,” Goldberg says of the 10-inch serrated kitchen knife lodged 4 inches into Ellen’s chest. “She fell on a knife. I don’t know. Her knife is sticking out. There’s a knife sticking out of her heart.”

“Oh, she stabbed herself?” the operator asks.

“I guess so, I don’t know, or she fell on it. I don’t know,” Goldberg says.

The fact he says he can't unzip her, but then says afterward there is a knife sticking out... huh, how does one not notice a knife first blocking a zipper of a hoodie if she was already on her back facing you???

I know some people don't do well under pressure and freeze sometimes in troubling situations in the heat of the moment, but this feels like it's rehearsed his responses to the operator tbh, a little too something on the nose of pretending to act dumb about whats going on. I mean the guy at the time is a tv producer. I work in the film industry. I'm telling you that there is no way he wouldn't of noticed this big 10" knife sticking out, producers tend to when on set or in the control rooms for tv, are born to handle PRESSURE cooker situations 24/7!

This guy is either a psychopathic world-class liar or a fantastical actor who knows how to pretend being scared.

Jmo, he noticed the knife in Ellen's chest. He lied about it.

Ellen did not do this to herself. Common sense tells us that. Something more sinister happened.

I am not telling you anything you dont already know. Thank you for all your insightful posts.

The 911 call is strange. This guy is supposed to marry EG in what about a month after her murder and he sounds rehearsed. No emotions. No pain in discovering her that way. I know people respond differently but he's different. He rarely answered the dispatch operator's questions. He also didn't seem to want to do CPR on EG. Why? If he killed her (IF), why would he want to make an attempt to bring her back to life?

He wasn't even working out that long ... was he? I know people take a quick jog or whatever, but that was a red flag in this case for me.

Strange, strange 911 call...

Curious if the lock actually had to be broken off as he claimed. Dont believe anything SG says. Not buying it.

All is a matter of opinion and speculation, as always

Such an injustice in this case.

 

[arielilane]

Welcome, @ForensicPatterns and all new sleuths!
Glad to see you here.

 

[snarast]

“Her shirt won’t come off. It’s a zipper.

!!!

Oh my God! She stabbed herself,” Goldberg says of the 10-inch serrated kitchen knife lodged 4 inches into Ellen’s chest. “She fell on a knife. I don’t know. Her knife is sticking out. There’s a knife sticking out of her heart.”

“Oh, she stabbed herself?” the operator asks.

“I guess so, I don’t know, or she fell on it. I don’t know,” Goldberg says.

The fact he says he can't unzip her, but then says afterward there is a knife sticking out... huh, how does one not notice a knife first blocking a zipper of a hoodie if she was already on her back facing you???

I know some people don't do well under pressure and freeze sometimes in troubling situations in the heat of the moment, but this feels like it's rehearsed his responses to the operator tbh, a little too something on the nose of pretending to act dumb about whats going on. I mean the guy at the time is a tv producer. I work in the film industry. I'm telling you that there is no way he wouldn't of noticed this big 10" knife sticking out, producers tend to when on set or in the control rooms for tv, are born to handle PRESSURE cooker situations 24/7!

This guy is either a psychopathic world-class liar or a fantastical actor who knows how to pretend being scared.

Again - was the zipper on the hoodie pulled up covering the huge knife?

That alone would prove it was murder. There is no zipping of anything on Ellen’s part after the aorta stab.

SG would have known you don’t zip up after a stab like that.

 

[arielilane]

He had every excuse under the sun to not help her... why? jmo

 

[snarast]

He had every excuse under the sun to not help her... why? jmo

A kind interpretation is that he knew she was beyond help.

And - this is IMO - he seemed drunk/high on the call. Not reasoning all that well.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

Again - was the zipper on the hoodie pulled up covering the huge knife?

That alone would prove it was murder. There is no zipping of anything on Ellen’s part after the aorta stab.

SG would have known you don’t zip up after a stab like that.

The hoodie was zipped up with the knife sticking out. Which means she was wearing the hoodie when stabbed.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

He had every excuse under the sun to not help her... why? jmo

People who are great at lying, can easily say things quick because the trick is they themselves believe their own lies before you do. That’s how they consciously get away with lying and don’t feel guilty about it.

 

[snarast]

The hoodie was zipped up with the knife sticking out. Which means she was wearing the hoodie when stabbed.

Which makes me wonder how he didn’t see that giant item that was that knife.

Plus you don’t stab yourself through a hoodie. Really.

 

[snarast]

People who are great at lying, can easily say things quick because the trick is they themselves believe their own lies before you do. That’s how they consciously get away with lying and don’t feel guilty about it.

Mostly, they like winning. Possibly one of the best liars of all time - Kim Philby.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

Which makes me wonder how he didn’t see that giant item that was that knife.

Plus you don’t stab yourself through a hoodie. Really.

Well, liars are the greatest actors, that's why it seems like he didn't. He is 100% involved in her murder. It's pretty obvious now.

What really makes it obvious he works as a producer in the film industry for tv. I work in the industry, HMU side. Let me tell you one thing? Everyone who produces is great at lying and fixing things when it goes wrong, especially if they work in reality tv.

My guess? He put the knife back into her like that after he moved her to the floor before cleaning up, clean up the mess, roll her onto a garbage bag, then head to the gym. I'm surprise the detectives didn't ask CSU to check for bleach having been used to clean things up. Let alone for any blood traces down all the sinks to find evidence of blood getting washed off. You find that, and it puts to rest 100% suicide and it's back to homicide the case.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

Mostly, they like winning. Possibly one of the best liars of all time - Kim Philby.

Actually that would be Bernie Madoff, who did the biggest pozie scheme (named after charles ponzie who was the first guy on record to do this!) and lied to clients in the Black Monday 1987 stock market crash and then caused the 2008 housing crash.

After that is Jordan Belfort, the main inspiration for "Wolf of Wall Street".

Both are psychopaths, which is very common to find in the financial sector.

Psychopaths on Wall Street by Ronald Schouten, MD, JD writes in their published article paper:

The headline-grabbing factoid in the article was an estimate that 10% of people in the financial services industry are psychopaths. And that’s a conservative estimate, according to Christopher Bayer, a Wall Street psychotherapist cited by DeCovny.

DeCovny describes “financial psychopaths” as individuals who seek thrills, lack empathy, don’t care about what others think, are charming and intelligent, and are skilled at lying and manipulation. Citing Richard Peterson, managing partner of MarketPsych (a firm that provides psychological and behavioral finance training for the industry), DeCovny notes that these are some of the traits that also predict success on Wall Street.

To understand the implications of all this, it helps to define psychopathy. It is a psychological condition based on well-established diagnostic criteria. These include glibness and superficial charm, conning and manipulative behavior, lack of remorse and empathy, refusal to take responsibility for one’s behavior, and others.

Determining whether a person is a psychopath is generally done using a test like the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R), developed by Robert Hare and his colleagues. People who are “normal” invariably score a few points on such scales. True psychopaths score in the top 25%.

Using formal diagnostic criteria, researchers have estimated that about 1% of Americans — about 3 million people — are psychopaths. Based on statistics alone, there are some true psychopaths on Wall Street, as there are in all walks of life. The odds increase further when we consider the competitive advantage that some of the characteristics of psychopathy, including willingness to take risks, can provide in the field.

 

[TroyinTX]

I just have to say that in the annals of true crime 911 calls, Sam's call has to be the phoniest one I have ever heard. Very obvious the dude is acting; but the problem is he has zero acting ability.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

I just have to say that in the annals of true crime 911 calls, Sam's call has to be the phoniest one I have ever heard. Very obvious the dude is acting; but the problem is he has zero acting ability.

On paper, 100%, you can see it easily, but I guarantee as you heard it if you were a 911 operator, you may or may not know if they knew how to CONVEY emotions or pretend to be concerned. Psychopaths are easier to catch through email, text, and anything similar because their charm/glibness disappears in written format, but is heavily concealed through verbal conversation by phone calls, video chats, and face-to-face interactions.

I guarantee, he's good at lying face to face but can always be caught when he sends emails or text messages to anyone... hence why do you want a paper trail with a psychopathic individual, to prove what they said if they lie and refuses to take accountability for their actions, behaviors, and/or crimes they commit.

 

[KreepinSavage]

I'm new too WS but i love it and this case caught my eye. I want to try and bump it back up so maybe we can get a few more eyes on it again. Thesse poor parents have had to fight this for 13 years. This breaks my heart.
pennlive.com/crime/2024/04/ellen-greenberg-case-bombshell-her-body-was-moved-family-attorney-says-in-court.html