NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

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I don't think anyone has done this before, so I took the time to count probable ages and dates of birth for the victims.

My calculations are based on these estimates (by Roselrv in February in this same thread)... I hope these are the latest ones:
VICTIM 1 - ADULT FEMALE - Unidentified White Female - Estimated age: 23-32 years old, most likely in her mid-20s when killed, but could be as old as 33.
VICTIM 2 - OLDEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 9-10 years old.
VICTIM 3 - MIDDLE AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 3-4 years old.
VICTIM 4 - YOUNGEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 2-3 years old.
Estimated time of death between 80 and 84

First I counted with the given estimates for time of death, but that gave some funky results (like child #4 being 4 years older than child #3, which is highly unlikely). So I needed to narrow things down. I think I remember even LE saying, it's likely that the murders happened before RE left the area with Denise. So that narrows things down to 1980-1981. With the estimated ages for the children, all of them get estimated DOBs with variation of just two years.

Counting back from the TODs we can say that (Here's how I counted: [latest possible TOD]-[smallest possible age] and [earliest possible TOD]-[largest possible age].):
- child #4 was born between 1977 and 1979 (estimated age 2-3 years)
- child #3 was born between 1976 and 1978 (estimated age 3-4 years)
- child #2 was born between 1970 and 1972 (estimated age 9-10 years)

The age differences for the kids:
#2/#4 5-7 years, average 6 years
#2/#3 6-8 years, average 7 years
#3/#4 1-3 years, average 1,5 years

From these we get three possible combinations for DOB for the kids:
#2 (#3) #4
1970 (1977/78) 1979
1971 (1976/77) 1978
1972 (1975/76) 1977

If you compare the
adult #1 possible ages to the times of death, we have her DOB between 1948 and 1958 and her estimated ages when her (assumed) first daughter was born:

#2DOB>age of #1 (age if assumed she wasn't older than 28)
1970> 12-22 (12-18)
1971> 13-23 (13-19)
1972> 14-24 (14-20)

She is said to most likely be in her mid-20s, so the smaller ages are more likely, but obviously (hopefully) most likely 12-14 would have been too young. It is more likely she was at least 16 at the time of her first born's birth. So if she was at least 16 in 1970 she would have been born by 1954. Which means her DOB would be between 1948 and 1954.

Edit. Also, since adult #1 was said to be in her mid-20s, I think we can safely bring forward her earliest DOB by at least four years making it between 1952 and 1954. (Which is pretty narrow window!) I added new estimates to her estimated age when giving birth.
 
Apparently there is a limit to how many times you can edit a post or something. I was going to change the age for the adult at the time of her oldest child's birth in parenthesis.

#2DOB>age of #1 (age if assumed she wasn't older than 28 when she dies, born between 1952 and 1954)
1970> 12-22 (16-18)
1971> 13-23 (17-19)
1972> 14-24 (18-20)

Edit. If you see any mistakes in the numbers or faults in my logic, please let me know so that I can fix the estimates.
 
coppehead said:
I don't think anyone has done this before, so I took the time to count probable ages and dates of birth for the victims.

My calculations are based on these estimates (by Roselrv in February in this same thread)... I hope these are the latest ones:
VICTIM 1 - ADULT FEMALE - Unidentified White Female - Estimated age: 23-32 years old, most likely in her mid-20s when killed, but could be as old as 33.
VICTIM 2 - OLDEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 9-10 years old.
VICTIM 3 - MIDDLE AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 3-4 years old.
VICTIM 4 - YOUNGEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 2-3 years old.
Estimated time of death between 80 and 84

First I counted with the given estimates for time of death, but that gave some funky results (like child #4 being 4 years older than child #3, which is highly unlikely). So I needed to narrow things down. I think I remember even LE saying, it's likely that the murders happened before RE left the area with Denise. So that narrows things down to 1980-1981. With the estimated ages for the children, all of them get estimated DOBs with variation of just two years.

Counting back from the TODs we can say that (Here's how I counted: [latest possible TOD]-[smallest possible age] and [earliest possible TOD]-[largest possible age].):
- child #4 was born between 1977 and 1979 (estimated age 2-3 years)
- child #3 was born between 1976 and 1978 (estimated age 3-4 years)
- child #2 was born between 1970 and 1972 (estimated age 9-10 years)

The age differences for the kids:
#2/#4 5-7 years, average 6 years
#2/#3 6-8 years, average 7 years
#3/#4 1-3 years, average 1,5 years

From these we get three possible combinations for DOB for the kids:
#2 (#3) #4
1970 (1977/78) 1979
1971 (1976/77) 1978
1972 (1975/76) 1977

If you compare the
adult #1 possible ages to the times of death, we have her DOB between 1948 and 1958 and her estimated ages when her (assumed) first daughter was born:

#2DOB>age of #1 (age if assumed she wasn't older than 28)
1970> 12-22 (12-18)
1971> 13-23 (13-19)
1972> 14-24 (14-20)

She is said to most likely be in her mid-20s, so the smaller ages are more likely, but obviously (hopefully) most likely 12-14 would have been too young. It is more likely she was at least 16 at the time of her first born's birth. So if she was at least 16 in 1970 she would have been born by 1954. Which means her DOB would be between 1948 and 1954.

Edit. Also, since adult #1 was said to be in her mid-20s, I think we can safely bring forward her earliest DOB by at least four years making it between 1952 and 1954. (Which is pretty narrow window!) I added new estimates to her estimated age when giving birth.
Click to expand...

This is very interesting, thank you. I am still trying to catch up with whole thread. According to your calculations, can you check then if this would be correct - if we put cut off date end of 1980 and trying to see what ages they all were in 1977 when RE got Waumbeck Mill job in Manchester.

- child #4 was born between 1977 and 1979 (estimated age 2-3 years) - in 77 - heavily pregnant or just conceived?
- child #3 was born between 1976 and 1978 (estimated age 3-4 years) - 77- she would be around 1 year or just born
- child #2 was born between 1970 and 1972 (estimated age 9-10 years) - in 77 -she would be around 6 - 7 years old

White Female - Estimated age: 23-32 years old in 1980, so around 19-29 in 1977. (I think I would scrap 19 as that would make her 12-13 when having her 1st child, but who knows)

It would make it quite interesting if adult female was heavily pregnant with her 2nd child in 1977 (child 4 above in chart) and RE was around, as the same was happening with Denise in 1981. His own child was not probably with him yet in 77, so people could remember only 1 child at this point, the eldest?
 
I know this has been a trend as of late, but...weren't women *strongly* discouraged from wearing jeans during any point of their pregnancy? In one of those pics, she was wearing jeans while supposedly pregnant.
 
Nikon said:
I know this has been a trend as of late, but...weren't women *strongly* discouraged from wearing jeans during any point of their pregnancy? In one of those pics, she was wearing jeans while supposedly pregnant.
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My baby sister was born in 1976. I don't remember my mom being discouraged from wearing jeans.
She made her own maternity ones, though, by cutting out the front of her own jeans and sewing in a maternity panel.
 
Yeah, but that doesn't mean we paid much attention 😆

There was a trick of looping a rubber band through the buttonhole and around the button to make the waist bigger, too.

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Alleykins said:
My baby sister was born in 1976. I don't remember my mom being discouraged from wearing jeans.
She made her own maternity ones, though, by cutting out the front of her own jeans and sewing in a maternity panel.
Click to expand...
I remember my mother telling me she had to give up jeans when she had us as soon as she found out she was pregnant with all of us.

carbuff said:
Yeah, but that doesn't mean we paid much attention ��

There was a trick of looping a rubber band through the buttonhole and around the button to make the waist bigger, too.

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Click to expand...

Hah, fair enough. My own heeded to all rules without questioning.

I have to say that's a rather clever trick. Maybe that's what the vic employed as well.
 
carbuff said:
Yeah, but that doesn't mean we paid much attention 

There was a trick of looping a rubber band through the buttonhole and around the button to make the waist bigger, too.
Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

OMG! I can't stop laughing, because that's what I did with my son in the first month or two of pregnancy because I was having difficulty finding plus size maternity jeans. This was in 2002, btw!
I hadn't "outed" myself at work yet, and my boss came over to sit with me on a few calls and she noticed my home made jean extension-I didn't realize my shirt didn't cover me all the way. I said, uh, you know that day off I needed back in September that you didn't want to give me? Well, guess what I was doing. . . .
 
Nikon said:
I remember my mother telling me she had to give up jeans when she had us as soon as she found out she was pregnant with all of us.



Hah, fair enough. My own heeded to all rules without questioning.

I have to say that's a rather clever trick. Maybe that's what the vic employed as well.
Click to expand...
She might have done that. I read about it in a women's magazine.

Another possibility is that she fastened them below her belly. Jeans sat lower on the hips in the late 70s so there was a little more room, and it gave some support from underneath.

And they did make maternity jeans with stretch front panels.

Looking at her picture with the baby carried kind of high and jutting out, I'm going to guess that she has them fastened underneath.



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folieadeuxnola said:
Going back through some of the older articles ...

November 2015

University of South Florida scientist Dr. George Kamenov performed the isotope testing. He said his findings suggest that roughly six months before their deaths, the adult victim visited Upstate New York where one victim possibly lived. Then she returned to New Hampshire with the child.


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Click to expand...

This would correspond with my theory that RE brought his own child to Manchester after already living in Hayward house. RE was arrested in February, June and October of 1980. Its possible that murders happened between June and Oct of 1980 (as in Oct arrest he did not list spouse or children anymore).

That would mean his own child was brought in between Xmas time 1979 up to April/May of 1980 and spent from that date approximately 6 month living in house before the dreadful event. With younger child of woman being born in 1977/78 and probably also already in this house, my hope would be with older child that someone might remember her. She probably socialized a bit, run small errands already for them etc. Also with such a big age gap between older and younger child there is high probability they were both from different fathers.

Sometimes in 1981 (or even very late 1980) Denise moved in to the house.

Just for my recoup and quick find in the future - summary

The woman may have had Caucasian and Native American heritage. She had curly or wavy brown hair and was between 5'2" and 5'7". Her teeth showed significant dental work, including multiple fillings and three extractions.[2][10][15] The three girls may have also had Native American heritage, with light or white complexions.[16]

The girl found with the adult female was between 5 and 11 years old. She had symptoms of pneumonia, a crooked front tooth and a diastema, two earrings in each ear, and was between 4'3" and 4'6" tall. Her hair was wavy and light brown; she had no dental fillings. She had a gap in her front teeth.[17]

The second-youngest girl (age estimated between 2–4 years old)[6][18] also had a gap in her front teeth. She had brown hair and was about 3'8" tall. She had an overbite, which was probably noticeable.[19] DNA proved the child was fathered by an unidentified, now-dead convicted killer who used the name Robert "Bob" Evans and other aliases.

The youngest girl (estimated age 1–3 years old)[6][18] had long blond or light brown hair, was between 2'1" and 2'6" inches tall, and had a gap in her front teeth.[5][1]
Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Brook_murders

(Bear with me, I am still catching up)

PS: silly question, but could noticeable overbite be in any way hereditary?
 
puzzleme said:
Very much so!

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Click to expand...

Very interesting. So we are looking for a toddler going missing around end of 1979 or beginning of 1980 with noticeable overbite. I have not noticed overbite on RE so probably inherited from toddler's mother?

Weird that Denise had very big and noticeable overbite even though she comes into picture only few month later.
 
Yes very interesting! But I believe her mother is dead. So I think we should be looking for a runaway who has a very noticeable overbite....IMO

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puzzleme said:
Yes very interesting! But I believe her mother is dead. So I think we should be looking for a runaway who has a very noticeable overbite....IMO

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Click to expand...

Yes, toddler mother could have passed from unrelated reasons as well, that could be reason why RE was picking up the child?

Interestingly, if she was runaway, that RE would know where to pick up a child. That would also means that toddler's mother was at the same place somewhere for min 3-4 years (1976 - 79/80) from their child birth. (If she moved around they would have to be in touch somehow, which for some reason I doubt)
 
True I didn't take that in account. I wonder who got in touch with him? And how did they know where he was?

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Al Ka said:
This would correspond with my theory that RE brought his own child to Manchester after already living in Hayward house. RE was arrested in February, June and October of 1980. Its possible that murders happened between June and Oct of 1980 (as in Oct arrest he did not list spouse or children anymore).

That would mean his own child was brought in between Xmas time 1979 up to April/May of 1980 and spent from that date approximately 6 month living in house before the dreadful event. With younger child of woman being born in 1977/78 and probably also already in this house, my hope would be with older child that someone might remember her. She probably socialized a bit, run small errands already for them etc. Also with such a big age gap between older and younger child there is high probability they were both from different fathers.

Sometimes in 1981 (or even very late 1980) Denise moved in to the house.

Just for my recoup and quick find in the future - summary


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Brook_murders

(Bear with me, I am still catching up)

PS: silly question, but could noticeable overbite be in any way hereditary?
Click to expand...

This may be an out there suggestion, but has Megan Ginevicz been ruled out? https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/3894/

Her thread here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?31277-MT-Megan-Ginevcz-2-St-Ignatius-30-April-1980

Megan was playing in her yard unattended in May 1980. Local LE concluded she wandered off in the woods and died from the elements or animals but her father believed that she was abducted. Megan's parents were divorced and living in different states. Of course it seems really unlikely--not only because she probably wandered away in the woods-- but also because it would mean the Megan's father was not her biological father and for some reason RE was her father and he knew it and came back to take her. But since this case is already so convoluted and crazy it feels like anything is possible. Megan has the gap in her teeth and possibly an overbite just looking at her picture...
 
Sometimes overbites are genetic, but sometimes it's habits, too, like thumb sucking or pacifier over use.
 
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