2009.08.07 Emails between Oak Ridge and OCSO

[BondJamesBond]

Nice work - as usual - JWG. :thumb:

FWIW, there's extensive discussion on the "All about Chloroform" threads for diving in further there. Kudos to DogMom to giving some excellent details on GC's, etc. Seeing these emails helps me get an appreciation of just how 'remote' Arped was from the Pontiac when we got these comments about the level of chloroform and even the speculation that it might be via pharm grade. Arped was making these judgements based solely on the relative amount of chloroform in the air samples that had been provided. On one of the chloroform threads (#2 IIRC) we observed the concentration levels associated w/ specific side-effects and noted that neither George, nor the K9 were rendered unconscious when they intentionally inhaled the trunk air...George sticking his nose right down on the stain....which IIRC meant the concentration had to be <1,000 parts per million. And as DogMom and/or others pointed out here...via GC you only observe the compounds...not the form in which they are present...IOW...GC doesn't tell you if it was in an azeotrope (e.g. from homebrew chloroform)...rather would only tell you what two compounds of an azeotrope might have been present. I will admit that I am completely baffled by Arped not keying on the potential for the chloroform to be the product of decomposition itself, as we've read...and I do mean baffled :doh: IMHO...:twocents: I'm still parked on the chloroform being the product of decomp itself.

You hafta appreciate Arped's WS-qualities, eh? At the same time, IMHO, his comments also give you some insight on not reading too much into things. For example, identifying one specific body of water...and going so far as to quantify 700' out...at that point he's become one of us

And at least now we have some more info on why LP was babbling on incessantly 'bout turpenes. Geez. Doesn't look like the blue crate was submitted for further testing...so...am inclined as others to go w/ the pants and/or boots being the source of turpenes finding their way into the trunk. This would be useful for putting together a more solid case for 6/19 vs. 6/20 disposal. It would mean that Casey was in gotta-look-like-i'm-goin'/comin-to/from-work attire when she executed the disposal. I won't try to remember all the details, but, if I was looking them up I'd check:

• Chris description of Casey's attire if he gave one (don't recall for certain), but, don't think she had time to change...or likely a planned change of clothes with her 6/19PM
• Casey left Tony @ his apt. 6/19PM, and could've given a gotta-do-a-quick-thing-for-work alibi for which she'd need to change into slacks
• Weren't these boots in pics >6/20 @ Fusian...so...maybe just focus on the slacks
• Friday afternoon 6/20 before Fusian...when Casey had been tellin' Tony she was going in early and he knew she'd be goin to Fusian that night....seems most likely to be slack-wearin' time = disposal 6/20 ~1:50PM
• Also seems that a gonna-party-Friday attitude would be more fitting w/ Casey's m.o. to act only when she had to vs. Thursday....although I realize some make the argument that Casey gave Tony a lift 6/19PM in Apartment-a-go-go with Caylee's body in the trunk...as a too-close-call compelling Casey to deal w/ it immediately afterwards.

'Nuff ramblin' for one post. Carry on!

 

[aafromaa]

IMHO...:twocents: I'm still parked on the chloroform being the product of decomp itself.

respectfully snipped by me

BJB,

I tend to agree about it being product of decomp but have been told that the "expert's" conclusion was that the concentration was too high to have just come from decomp. Can you share your thoughts on that argument?

 

[static]

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but have we heard anything on the needle that was in the toilet paper role yet?

 

[Pondering Mind]

One other thing to note is that the discovery of chloroform in the trunk prompted the OCSO computer forensics people to search for the word on the computer. Discovery of the Google search on the computer came after the substance was discovered in the trunk. Not the other way around.

The search term probably would never have been found otherwise. After all, an investigator is not going to scroll through tens of billions of bytes of data looking for interesting words. It simply is not practical.

That's what I was thinking too. Hasn't it been confirmed that 'someone' was researching how to actually MAKE (not just buy) chloroform? That speaks volumes to me...

 

[whatsupwiththat]

Maybe we will hear more about that in the doc dump

 

[Marina2]

One other thing to note is that the discovery of chloroform in the trunk prompted the OCSO computer forensics people to search for the word on the computer. Discovery of the Google search on the computer came after the substance was discovered in the trunk. Not the other way around.

The search term probably would never have been found otherwise. After all, an investigator is not going to scroll through tens of billions of bytes of data looking for interesting words. It simply is not practical.

They could have come across the word when reviewing her Google search history. Google saves everyone's search history. I think that would be one of the first things a computer forensics person would look at. Why haven't we seen a subpoena for Google in the documents?

 

[BondJamesBond]

respectfully snipped by me

BJB,

I tend to agree about it being product of decomp but have been told that the "expert's" conclusion was that the concentration was too high to have just come from decomp. Can you share your thoughts on that argument?

Sure...but, let's do that on a chloroform thread, eh?

 

[sharlock]

i would like to know was this a small amount....perhaps from shoes or pants being thrown into the trunk.....

or could it have come from the body a larger amount from the body being soaked....maybe because the body could have been in one place and then put back into the trunk and moved?

it will be interesting to see if they match this up to the exact spot to where caylee was found

something to add

lets just pretend that this didnt come off of KC pants or shoes etc........could there be any other reason that this would be found in the trunk of the car?

Perhaps Casey moved the body from one location to another?

 

[ClockWatcher]

Here's a link to a nice article featuring Dr. Vass.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/14/death-detector/

A snippet from the article:

"A break in that case may have occurred Thursday when skeletal remains of a child were found in a wooded lot less than a half-mile from where Caylee lived. Vass said he talked with Orange County, Fla., investigators by telephone and made some suggestions about evidence to possibly link the body to the car trunk and items from the child's home."

 

[carrie]

respecfully snipped and bolded by me.

While I have nothing but the utmost confidence in the State's CSI's on the testing in this case, I am worried that the defense is going to try and use things like these emails to try and show that the State basically did not know what they were doing when they collected these air samples. This would contribute to their "junk science" claim by highlighting that the CSI (Vincent) collecting these air samples really didn't know what he was doing...and to be perfectly honest, he did seem to be a little unprepared to do this task: "When I do a sample with one TST what do I do if anything, to block off the second hose line?", for example. The defense could argue that the air samples were compromised in some way due to his obvious inexperience dealing with this type of testing. And I don't know his scope of work, but I was surprised to read that he didn't know what LIBS and VFA's stood for. I'm just a typical person with no real education on this type of thing at all (other than the stuff I've learned here at my beloved Websleuths :blowkiss but even I knew what those acronyms stood for :waitasec:

Regardless, thank for JWG for posting these!! Do we know why these weren't uploaded by the media? I can't see why anyone would think that these weren't of value...they are far more relevant than, say, Jesse's detailed work/school/life history! Surely the media did receive these, right? :waitasec:

(above BBM)

That same thing crossed my mind and concerned me a bit as well.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Can't be that hard to obtain, cause I've got a couple of liters in stock right now. It's a resonably common solvent and we use it on a semi-regular basis in the chem. department. Not sure if you have to prove that you're an educational institution or an analytical laboratory to order products from chemical companies....but you can purchase liters of it from Sigma-Aldrich, Fisher Scientific, etc. Can look up the price/liter if anyone is interested.

 

[carrie]

:detective: JWG :detective:--- You have truly outdone yourself!!!! :thumb:

Thanks so much for sharing these emails with us.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Jolynna]

So this could be the reason for the duct tape....AND the reason she finally decided to discard the body. I wonder if the flies were in there when GA was looking for the gas cans.

There would be fly casings left IF fly pupae (maggots) had ever been under the duct tape.

 

[Oakley]

Nice work - as usual - JWG. :thumb:

Respectfully snipped:

I will admit that I am completely baffled by Arped not keying on the potential for the chloroform to be the product of decomposition itself, as we've read...and I do mean baffled :doh: IMHO...:twocents: I'm still parked on the chloroform being the product of decomp itself.

Arpad was eerily prophetic in his inquiring very early on about "a shallow, marshy area with decaying vegetation." He is one astute scientist, IMO.

 

[Whyamisointerested]

Can't be that hard to obtain, cause I've got a couple of liters in stock right now. It's a resonably common solvent and we use it on a semi-regular basis in the chem. department. Not sure if you have to prove that you're an educational institution or an analytical laboratory to order products from chemical companies....but you can purchase liters of it from Sigma-Aldrich, Fisher Scientific, etc. Can look up the price/liter if anyone is interested.

So it might be in a university/lab? I wonder if it would be used at Full Sail Univ.? AL was attending class and was in a lab( not sure what type of lab)

 

[Oakley]

So it might be in a university/lab? I wonder if it would be used at Full Sail Univ.? AL was attending class and was in a lab( not sure what type of lab)

AL has been cleared by LE.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

So it might be in a university/lab? I wonder if it would be used at Full Sail Univ.? AL was attending class and was in a lab( not sure what type of lab)

I looked at the website, and what they call a "science degree" is really stuff like website design, computer gaming, advertizing and marketing...computer stuff...not REAL LABORATORY stuff. I can't figure out why they'd have a chemical supply room. Plus, as mentioned above, he has been cleared.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

(above BBM)

That same thing crossed my mind and concerned me a bit as well.

Maybe they're (the hoses) are capped off in some way to begin with?

I know nothing about this but I did think - "wouldn't air come in from the dangling hose and mess with the results?" Maybe we don't have the whole picture.

 

[awakewriter]

Can't be that hard to obtain, cause I've got a couple of liters in stock right now. It's a resonably common solvent and we use it on a semi-regular basis in the chem. department. Not sure if you have to prove that you're an educational institution or an analytical laboratory to order products from chemical companies....but you can purchase liters of it from Sigma-Aldrich, Fisher Scientific, etc. Can look up the price/liter if anyone is interested.

Interesting. This makes me think back to Cindy not handing over her credit card statements to LE. Wonder what was on those.

That information hasn't been released yet, has it?

 

[JWG]

Maybe they're (the hoses) are capped off in some way to begin with?

I know nothing about this but I did think - "wouldn't air come in from the dangling hose and mess with the results?" Maybe we don't have the whole picture.

The fact that Vincent asked what to do with the hose before he began collecting samples is an indication he is a careful investigator. :thumb:

Vass's response that he should not worry about it and just leave it flopping should be taken at face value. He knows how the collection device works after all ...