2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

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thread hopping to try to ask questions in the correct thread, not sure if it's this one..

How do we know the duct tape was placed before death? I only found where it said "before decomposition occured" but it wasn't specific as to stage 1, stage 2 etc. In most of the other threads it seems like it is now assumed the duct tape was placed before death, period - but I'm not finding the docs to back this up. I've tried to keep up but I think I missed something - can anyone help?
 
thread hopping to try to ask questions in the correct thread, not sure if it's this one..

How do we know the duct tape was placed before death? I only found where it said "before decomposition occured" but it wasn't specific as to stage 1, stage 2 etc. In most of the other threads it seems like it is now assumed the duct tape was placed before death, period - but I'm not finding the docs to back this up. I've tried to keep up but I think I missed something - can anyone help?

At this point, IIRC no one can specifically identify when the duct tape was applied (ie: prior to or after death), however - I believe in Dr. G's medical examiner report it was placed at or near the time of death - due to the tape holding the lower mandible in place via being stuck to her head hair.
 
Mason starts a line of questioning pertaining as to whether an accidental drowning could have been the cause of Caylee’s death.

“Is there any evidence that tells you this child did not drown?” Mason asks.

“…Based on the fact that I have never seen a drowning nor do I see the reason why a drowning would have duct tape on the lower half of the face, I would say that is evidence itself that there’s no indication that this child would drown and there’s no reason why a child that’s drowned is put in a plastic bag and dumped on the side of the road,” Garavaglia explains.

It’s at this point that Mason segues into asking about the skull when it was found and asks some of the most telling questions – questions that allude to a possible defense theory that evidence may have been mishandling.

After confirming that Garavaglia only examined X-rays and photos of the duct tape on the skull and not the actual duct tape itself, he asks her about those photos. “You don’t think there was any staging of that photograph in your autopsy room after Kronk listed the skull with a stick in the left orbital socket?”

Garavaglia says she does not believe there is any evidence in the photos to suggest that.

Mason’s cross–examination comes to an end and his final question conveys the great deal of doubt the defense has about the investigation of Caylee’s remains by law enforcement and this witness.

“Have you looked at the photographs taken at the scene before the remains were moved?” Mason asks.

“Oh, yes,” Garavaglia assures him.

“Did you not notice that the duct tape in [the] two photographs was in substantially different positions?” Mason asks.

“No, I didn’t notice that…I’ve looked at many photographs at the scene. I didn’t notice that it was appreciably different.”

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/15/casey-anthonys-defense-team-attacks-duct-tape-theory/




"We're not doing well, Casey. None of us," Cindy Anthony said while crying. "Lee has been sick. Dad's blowing up at the media."

Before entering the jail, George Anthony lashed out at a reporter on his way in to visit his daughter.

"Do you have anything to say about a new theory that Caylee (Anthony) may be dead and that it may be an accident?" a reporter asked.

"Shut up," George Anthony screamed as he moved toward the reporter. "Shut up."

"Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning -- that she drowned in the pool. That's the newest story out there," Cindy Anthony said.

"Surprise, surprise," said Casey Anthony, who was then peppered with questions by her mother.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/18489212/detail.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc&feature=related

at 1:57 mark...Cindy starts the above conversation....Surprise, surprise...JMHO

Since Mason asks Dr. G about the drowning, I believe this is what the defense will try to use as a defense, that Caylee somehow got into the pool and when Casey got to her, it was already too late...she panics, makes the flurry of calls to her parents, which go unanswered...ICA fears her mother will NOT believe this was accidental and comes up with the kidnapping theory...not that this will fly, or that any jurors would comprehend her actions other than to see it for what it is...after the State gives the details, that ICA's life appears to blossom without Caylee....the defense will say she had a psycotic break in reality out of fear of what her parents would do...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

This drowning theory sounds usable. However, I have one problem with the defense using this story. If she substituted a kidnapping story for a true drowning story, which she would claim as a better more believable story to tell her parents, why would she wait 31 days to lay that kidnapping story on her parents. To me, she didn't spill the kidnapping by Zanny tale until she was up against the wall: with Cindy on the phone to 911 and demanding Casey tell them what happened.

Of course, the only way I can see the defense bringing the "too worried to tell of drowning story" in is for ICA to tell it to the jury from the witness chair. I really doubt she would do that. jmo
 
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/mostpopular/21249759/detail.html

Is it possible that fluid or material from Caylee decomposing would have leaked, gotten soaked into the fibers of the duct tape? Wouldn't testing that duct tape show "like crazy" that it was attached to Caylee for X amount of time?

With that duct tape firmly in place on Caylee, enough for it to still be "attached" to the skull when the remains were found, wouldn't there be evidence of decomp that could be taken from the tape? Or would the water have washed it all away?

TIA

:websleuther:
 
Dr Lillian Glass thinks that GA/CA will have a meltdown and come to their senses once they see autopsy photos of Caylee....
http://drlillianglass.com/body-lang...ny-into-reality-so-they-stop-defending-casey/

I doubt it. I think they have already seen the remains at the funeral home she was held at. Plus they took possession of the remains. I would imagine they saw them before the cremation. CA would want to look, IMO. If cleaning decomp from the trunk and breathing it in the garage didn't seem to phase her, I think she could look at the bones.
 
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/mostpopular/21249759/detail.html

Is it possible that fluid or material from Caylee decomposing would have leaked, gotten soaked into the fibers of the duct tape? Wouldn't testing that duct tape show "like crazy" that it was attached to Caylee for X amount of time?

With that duct tape firmly in place on Caylee, enough for it to still be "attached" to the skull when the remains were found, wouldn't there be evidence of decomp that could be taken from the tape? Or would the water have washed it all away?

TIA

:websleuther:

The back of the duct tape (with the fibers) was pretty destroyed. Nothing biological was found on it.
 
I doubt it. I think they have already seen the remains at the funeral home she was held at. Plus they took possession of the remains. I would imagine they saw them before the cremation. CA would want to look, IMO. If cleaning decomp from the trunk and breathing it in the garage didn't seem to phase her, I think she could look at the bones.

I agree. At least in regards to CA. Cleaning that trunk should have sent her running and screaming and waking up in a cold sweat at night remembering that smell and the mess in the car. But it doesn't and Cindy would never react to seeing the remains. I think Cindy has managed to detach herself from Caylee and is now singularly focused on assisting her daughter beat this entire charge. Plus I don't think HHJP will allow either of them in the courtroom except during their testimony (and rightfully so). They can't control themselves and they certainly don't act as the victims kin only the defendant.

Now GA is a different story he seems to have a visceral reaction to the mention of the smell in the car. Every time he hangs his head and shakes his head. Almost like he's remembering the smell. Although with this family I can't tell if GA is just putting on a show. Either way GA seems to have a reaction to some of the evidence that is not favorable to his daughter. Sometimes, just sometimes, he gives himself away. Unintentionally I think.
 
I agree. At least in regards to CA. Cleaning that trunk should have sent her running and screaming and waking up in a cold sweat at night remembering that smell and the mess in the car. But it doesn't and Cindy would never react to seeing the remains. I think Cindy has managed to detach herself from Caylee and is now singularly focused on assisting her daughter beat this entire charge. Plus I don't think HHJP will allow either of them in the courtroom except during their testimony (and rightfully so). They can't control themselves and they certainly don't act as the victims kin only the defendant.

Now GA is a different story he seems to have a visceral reaction to the mention of the smell in the car. Every time he hangs his head and shakes his head. Almost like he's remembering the smell. Although with this family I can't tell if GA is just putting on a show. Either way GA seems to have a reaction to some of the evidence that is not favorable to his daughter. Sometimes, just sometimes, he gives himself away. Unintentionally I think.
And of course CA would need to inspect the bones in case she needs to object to or oppose Dr. G's findings.. LOL. CA is in charge of investigations. you know.
 
Bumping this thread.

I read the entire thing this morning, and though I recall some things when the evidence was released, so much great work has been done here at WS. I am numb with the horror this evidence suggests, this is the heart of the case against KC.

I never thought I'd say that I hope chloroform was used and Caylee was unconscious when all this happened. RIP little baby. :cry:
 
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/mostpopular/21249759/detail.html

Is it possible that fluid or material from Caylee decomposing would have leaked, gotten soaked into the fibers of the duct tape? Wouldn't testing that duct tape show "like crazy" that it was attached to Caylee for X amount of time?

With that duct tape firmly in place on Caylee, enough for it to still be "attached" to the skull when the remains were found, wouldn't there be evidence of decomp that could be taken from the tape? Or would the water have washed it all away?

TIA

:websleuther:
I suspect you're right.
My theory about the duct tape is that it was applied because KC saw that the body was leaking fluids from the nose and mouth, and she needed to move it and didn't want any drips. That would explain the stain in the trunk.

JMO
 
Photos of Caylee's remains are being entered into evidence right now. Bumping so the TRUTH can be heard loud and clear. Let the duct tape story speak.
 
I realize many of us know A LOT of what is included already. Hopefully this will help as a quick resource guide for the basics.

I'm gonna go ahead and post what I have, otherwise it might be the week before trial before I complete this mission. :crazy: This truly is a work in progress, so it is by no means complete. I welcome any and all input, just please cite source and page #'s. I quickly discovered that I had to narrow it down to sleuthing the following:

(1) the Duct Tape found on the remains and at the scene: Q62, Q63, Q64 and Q104
(2) several items submitted to the ME and FBI containing hair/fiber evidence.

There is certainly more out there (e.g., including, but not limited to, items seized from the Pontiac and Anthony residence), but hopefully this will serve as a starting point as a resource.

When I said I was gonna do this, I had NO CLUE what I was getting myself into. :bang: There are many things I would have done differently now that I know better - there are duplicates, docs from the ME, LE, TEU, FBI, and other agencies. I wish I had taken better notes in re. pg. #'s citing exactly where I got each bit of info, but it is ALL contained in 1,405 pg. doc linked link below. I have referenced many pg. #'s, but not all of them. Sorry, but I swear to ya I didn't make a single one of 'em up. :angel: Feel free to dive on in 'cause I welcome any & all input and want to edit as we find them, so PLEASE post or pm me and I will gladly add any more pg.#'s and/or links.

Note: any reference you see to hair being similar to Q59 is the ME designation referring to the hair mass. Likewise, any reference as ≠ Q23-Q25 refer to the trunk of the Pontiac.


Q62

  • Removed from skull
    • Size ~9.5” x 2”
    • Head hairs: ≤ 3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 (iow, all hairs found are Caylee’s) per pg. 596
    • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
    o Wool – black (1)
    o Cotton – blue (1)
    • Photo pgs. 605 & 606; 1112 & 1113; info p. 596


Q63
  • Removed from skull
    • Intertwined/stuck together with Q64
    • Size ~7.5”x2”
    • Hair: Head hairs ≤3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 per pg. 596
    • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
    o Wool – black (1)
    o Cotton – blue (1)
    • Photo pgs. 607, 608, 609, 610 & 611; 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117 & 1118; info p. 596


Q64

  • Removed from skull
    • Intertwined/stuck together with Q63
    • Size ~9” x 2”
    • Hair: Head hairs ≤3” decomp root w/ no root broken; all hairs found are = to Q59 (iow, all hairs found are Caylee’s) per pg. 596
    • Fibers: Manufactured – numerous white textured declustered polyester type; No trunk fibers
    o Wool – black (1)
    o Cotton – blue (1)
    • Photo pgs. 607, 608, 612, 613 & 614; 1119, 1120, & 1121; info p. 596


Q104
  • Found apart from the skull, but in the vicinity of the letters of the “Big Trouble…” t-shirt
    • Hair: Caucasian fringe hairs, hair fragments, very fine, light brown ONLY piece of duct tape found containing no head hair (per FBI, pg. 565, ¶4)
    • Size: ~8.5”x2”
    • Fibers: blue cotton, red cotton, off-white (d), black (d) (mostly opaque), grey-brown (d), blue (d) ≠ Q23-Q25
    • Photo pgs. 1243, 1244 & 1245; info p. 565, 752


ALL info relates back to the pdf linked below:

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html


Link to the Fiber Analysis post for quick reference.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5198814&postcount=164

bumping
 
This will be a 2-part post. The 1st part will explain the process of piecing together the Henkel duct tape segments in the exact sequence that they came off of the roll. The goal is to determine if the sequence will provide insight into their use.

Special thanks to AZLawyer, Muzikman, JWG and Valhall as they’ve entertained my requests for information along the way without much of an explanation why.

The Henkel duct tape discovered on Suburban Drive can be summarized to include the following:
  • Q62 attached to the skull
  • Q63 attached to the skull
  • Q64 attached to the skull
  • Q100 apart from the skull, but, in the vicinity of the letters of the “Big Trouble…” t-shirt

One additional piece of interest for this post was recovered from the Hopespring Dr. residence:​
  • Q66 covering the vent hold of a gas can


This particular Henkel duct tape product includes a logo and text marking, alternating to the left & right of center along the length of the non-adhesive side of the backing.

Henkel logo pattern courtesy of our own FairNBalanced:

Using the Henkel logo marking pattern I determined the sequence that the segments of tape came from the roll... much like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. When placed in the proper order each tape segment MUST align with BOTH the tear position AND the logo marking of the roll. This alignment process can also suggest if tape segments are missing from within a series if suitable matches for each tear are not found.

From the manufacturer’s specs cited earlier in the thread I used a tape width of 1.88”. With this measurement I maintained the aspect ratio of each tape segment’s image and scaled it to its actual size. Fortunately, most of the tape segment images are reasonably close to being flat and straight. FWIW, I checked the lengths of the scaled tape segments against the lengths in the forensics reports. All were reasonably close, with only the scaled Q62 image being slightly longer (9.3”).

Using a flat image of Henkel tape provided by FairNBalanced, and the known 1.88” width, I determined the repeat distance of the logo marking and replicated the text and the relative positions of each of the logo elements. I combined these to create a “virtual duct tape stencil” that I then overlaid on each tape segment. FairNBalanced’s image was remarkably close to the repeat pattern I was able to see in the actual Q-series tape segments.

The “virtual duct tape stencil” also made it easy to see where the logo marking had degraded or was difficult to view due to the reflection on the plastic sample bags in which they were placed. In all tape segments, however, there was at least one, and in some cases multiple, logo & print marking(s) with which the “virtual” stencil could be confirmed and aligned. :thumb:

How logo alignment is done:

Assumptions:

  • I assumed that the logo on the Henkel tap is right-side up when pulling the tape off the roll in front of you. IF the logo is, in fact, upside down it would simply reverse the sequence of the segments.
  • I also assumed that the segments of duct tape were torn and applied one-at-a-time instead of all of the pieces being torn from the roll before any of them were applied.

Lining up for matches:
Here’s and example of lining up two tape segment to determine which is the better fit using the logo pattern. Note that end matches can be eliminated easily when the logo appears out of synch with the stencil (left to right) OR out of synch with the lengthwise position of the logo.


I repeated this alignment test for all of the tape segments to determine if and how they fit.

After applying all possible combinations, the following best describes the sequence of taping that occurred:

1) Q64 applied first
2) Q100 applied second but NOT over Q64
3) Q63 applied third over Q64 at an angle
4) Q62 applied last over Q63

Only one end of Q100 among all of all the tape segments was significantly deteriorated enough to make the matching questionable. Fortunately, since there were excellent matches with all of the other tears, and since we also know that Q63 was attached on top of Q64, (the piece that came before Q100) it is reasonable to conclude that Q100 was applied after Q64 and before Q63, but, wasn’t sufficiently caught between them.

Q64 Matches Q100:

Q100 Matches Q63:

Q63 Matches Q62:

I used the same process on the piece of tape from the gas can, Q66, and determined that it was not a fit EITHER BEFORE Q64 or AFTER Q62. This doesn’t mean that Q66 didn’t come from the same roll or batch, only that it wasn’t taken from the roll immediately before Q64 or immediately after Q62. It is worth noting that the gas can tape analysis is not as straight forward as those found with the remains due to one of the images I have being on a curved surface, and the other providing only a partial view of the tape.

Next...if you have the patience for it :rolleyes:... Part 2 will use the sequence of tape pieces and a few other observations about them to suggest how they were applied.

bumpy
 
First – it is important to observe the order in which segments must’ve been torn from the roll and how that relates each end one to the other. For example, when tape is layered, the outer-most segment was the last one torn from the roll.



Second – it is important to note that the Henkel logo markings provide us with an easy means to identify the direction each segment of tape was originally on the roll. This cuts in half the number of possible end pairings that we have to consider. :thumb:

Third – consider when a right handed person applies tape from a roll they will typically use their right hand to spool the roll in a left-to-right direction. The Henkel logo orientation on Q64 and Q63 are consistent with this left-to-right application, FWIW.

Consider the following simple 2-dimensional scale image of Caylee’s face using one of her recent pictures and an average pupillary distance for a 3 year old female of 46mm using the linked reference.



Important elements used in the speculation that follows:
(A) The scaled image of Caylee’s face,
(B) The scaled image of Q63 & Q64, and
(C) Q100 being apart from the other tape segments​

  1. For the placement of Q63 I turned the image of Q63 w/ Q64 upside down and observed what appeared to be shaping suggesting that Q63 was initially affixed to Caylee’s left cheek/lower neck/hair area and, in a left-to-right motion the tape drawn across her chin and mouth area without covering the nasal cavities, in a slight upward diagonal across her face





  2. For the purpose of discussion, since Q100 was placed immediately after Q64 and before Q63 & Q62, yet, the face was still the focus of Q63 & Q62, consider that Q100 may have been placed over the eyes and bridge of nose at a slight diagonal that would eventually be parallel with the placement of Q63. Q100 does not appear to me to have covered the nasal cavity, only the bridge of the nose. Again, Q100 would’ve been affixed in a left-to-right motion with the right end covering Caylee’s left ear. This may explain the severe degradation of this end of the tape as this would’ve been the location of the lowest point of the head from which fluids would prefer to drain if Caylee were placed in the trunk on her left side as was suggested in the images of the stain in the trunk described here







  3. This body orientation may also explain what appears to be advanced degradation of Q64 on the (right) side of the tape that would’ve been on Caylee’s left-lower cheek/jaw in contact with fluid on the trunk flooring

  4. This placement of Q100 may also explain how it would’ve been affixed to irregular surfaces (e.g. eye lids/sockets, bridge of nose, eyebrow/eyelash hairs) that wouldn’t hold it in place as readily as the other segments. Perhaps Q100 was dislodged from her face after being exposed to decomp fluids in the heat when Casey pulled a trashbag down over Caylee’s head and past the left side of her face still being pushed against the floor of the trunk by gravity. This may have resulted in Q100 settling in the abdomen area where it eventually became associated with the shirt and subsequently transported by water/predators @ the Suburban Dr. disposal site.

  5. In addition to noting the focus of all of the other tape segments on the face, consider that IF Q100 had been used to bind Caylee’s wrists it was sufficiently long, IMHO, to have encircled them and adhered back onto itself. Given that Q62, 63 & 64 remained adhered to one another when exposed to similar conditions, I believe Q100 would’ve survived in this configuration also and have been found in the bag with the remains of the arms.

  6. It is the scaled image of Q63 crossing Q64 that leads me to believe that Q63 was placed directly over Caylee’s nostrils. Again using a left-to-right motion at a slightly steeper angle than what was used for Q64, Q63 was used to cover the space that remained between Q64 and Q100 such that it overlapped Q64 as-found, yet, only contacted Q100 at the edge. The measure width of Q63 + Q64 in their as-found condition is 2.6”. Again, using the scaled image of Caylee’s face and the image, this distance would cover from her chin to just over the end of her nose as shown. While it maybe a figment of my imagination, I can envision the formation of the tape in the image to suggest where it once was wrapped around the jaw/mouth/nose area with enough force to leave this impression and hold the mandible in place.


  7. Q62 was placed last, chiefly over the top of Q63 & Q64.


  8. Pure speculation, but, perhaps the angle of tape being applied somewhat consistently was the result of Caylee’s head being tilted to her right from being in her carseat (a) asleep, (b) sedated, or (c) subject to post-mortem rigor & gravity. This angle would’ve been the result of Casey taping in a horizontal manner

Unfortunately, I haven’t found anything in the above yet to convince me beyond a doubt that the tape was applied post vs. peri-mortem. I can still envision either scenario. Although if I'm forced to make a call @ the moment, the simplicity of the tape originating and returning to the garage begs post-mortem application. I need to let this sink in a bit more and perhaps it’ll become clearer. :waitasec:

bumpin
 
In post 839 toward the bottom of the page there is an evidence photo showing the possible position of Caylee's body. Is this an actual photo of evidence or someones rendering of a possible senario?

Thanks
 
Also since the judge said we would see the photo's with the skull pixelated and we didn't see anything. Is that because it has to be done at a later time and we will see them when they are actually talked about and not just entered into evidence. TIA
 
I just play the scenario over and over again the What If's... What if the Police had responded in August with the first calls and they had found her remains (4 mo earlier than they actually did)

What if they responded and found her... would there be more evidence
 

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