2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[pip]

Can they present this at trial and say this in our opinion is the outline of Caylee in the trunk. Because if they do, KC is dead in the water. DEAD.

The fact that we can actually see her in the trunk brings us so much closer to what she went through and how matter of fact KC awas about this. Her hand is heartbraking. Heartbreaking!!!!

I hope they can! I see her hand too, awful! Do you see what I mean about the pull-up diaper outline with less trunk staining?

 

[Solace]

THANK YOU WENWE4 - INCREDIBLE WORK - I CANNOT BELIEVE THE OUTSLINE OF HER LITTLE ARM and HER HAND and I can make out the fingernail and it takes my breath away - Seriously.

 

[Solace]

I hope they can! I see her hand too, awful! Do you see what I mean about the pull-up diaper outline with less trunk staining?

Yes I do. And the fact that she would have purged from her nose and mouth first is clear that there would be more there also. From listening to the experts the fatty acid compounds are consistent with the FIRST PURGING of the body. There are three cycles.

 

[joypath]

i would think that the spots with the most decomp fluid would be the parts of her body which contained the most "stuff" to decompose?
like.. where her abdomen would've been - would've showed more decomp because that's where a majority of her organs were... same with her bottom.. the bowl is the first to decompose.
do feet, legs and arms decompose at the same rate as.. say, intestines? or is it that the whole body was saturated in fluid.. and just tossed in the trunk? that's why we can see the outline?

that poor, sweet child. never mind the act of murder.. how could someone see/touch/drive around their baby girl in that condition? that would haunt a normal person for the rest of their life.. and it's nothing to her! she was out at blockbuster, playing happy family while this was going on.

:twocents: :innocent: I AM GOING TO SOUND LIKE A "LECTURE" 'cause the topic is difficult to discuss for most of us! :twocents: :seeya:
The decompositional process starts with the death of the cells which includes those cells that command the body to "move" fluids within it, & around as we living organisms require. That said, gravity "kicks in" and assists with the release of near surface fluids i.e. oral & nasal cavities & "retaining tubes" (urethra, rectum, vagina) and amount depends upon the volume contained at the cessation of life.

Now to particular points of reference: Yes, the GI tract (especially the small & large colon) have a plethora of bacteria that LOVE to "run amok" whenever possible BUT they & the gastric acids MUST get thru all the fantastic protections within one's abdominal cavity (the "stuff" that keeps those internal organs, well inside & in place!) before pouring out. (yes, seepage will occur but of differing concentration & mixed fluids).
Limbs decompose DIFFERENTLY than the internal organs (see above) due to differing bacteria & exposure to the environment, again the fluids seeping are of a differing concentration and make-up.
The effects of GRAVITY & the WEIGHT of the body part will impact the accumulation of the fluids which cause the outline (or ANY residual outlines/shadows/markings from ANY terminal purge) AND the porousness of the surface material will assist in highlighting the outline. (THINK: Tipping over a "travel mug" onto the rubber car mat vs the thick plush car rug!). Additionally, the vehicle was driven and one can hypothesize that there was SOME motion within the trunk area which would have "spread" the developing fluids, even slightly. Had there NOT been a carpet in that trunk ........................ :truce:

Given the estimated time period that the scientific community presented regarding Caylee's demise and the entombment within the bags & vehicle, the simple fact that there IS ANY outline to evaluate/interpret/discuss/challenge is essentially a function of the environment and although being a "scientist" per se, I :innocent: declare it also a "GIFT FROM THE ALMIGHTY"......Caylee Marie's "voice" to those who ARE speaking up for her!:maddening:

 

[Solace]

Also PIP, this is what I mean about bringing Caylee to life in this courtroom and this picture does just that - In the closing, I would definitely show her in life and then I would show this picture.

If they can prove, and I don't know that they can, that Caylee suffered in this car and was very probably awake when she could not breathe, KC would get death - I don't see her not getting it if they can prove that.

But I am thinking she put Caylee out with a tremendous amount of chloroform, as testified to by the air expert - the amounts I mean - he said 10,000 times the norm of a decomposing body. The peak was higher than any other compound. SOOOO, she saturated that cloth and that could not have been fun for Caylee. It sounds totally frightening, doesn't it?

 

[ynotdivein]

pip, you're not alone in speculating that about the pull-up. Can't remember which WSer it was somewhere back in the mists of this thread who first pointed that out, but it makes sense. Also IIRC there were plastic remnants found with Caylee's remains that may have been a pull-up.

What a potential pull-up does for the "accidental drowning" scenario, I don't know. I guess you can put kids in a pool in their diapers, yes? But if Caylee was not wearing a pull-up when she died, it doesn't seem likely that KC would put one on her before disposing of her.

 

[kaRN]

I have no technical or medical knowledge but I would think if there was any kind of fluid leakage it would pool around and even under the body causing the outline we are seeing. One thing I did take into account I haven't seen mentioned here is if Casey is right handed. I imagined the exact way I would lift my daughters when they were Caylee's age and the position they were in after laying them down. Picking up their head would be cradled in my left arm, then that is the angle I would proceed to lay down first. Not feet first or to their right side pressed against me down first. So the posters that are seeing where her hands may have been bound behind her back lead me to believe that is entirely possible. I doubt she was moved at any other time after being originally put in the trunk up until she was taken out.

Gravity draws all body fluids to the lowest part of the body ie: the areas touching the ground and then they seep through the skin in those areas so the outline makes horrifying perfect sense. :sick: If I was a faster typer my post would have come before joypaths much more desriptive one. Tks Joypath!!

 

[wenwe4]

I posted JWG's earlier post (it's in the middle of this thread around pages 13-15 IIRC) explaining how this highlighted picture came to be. The red filter JWG used on the picture was just to highlight even more. The big circle where Caylee's knees appear to be is where the hole is on the carpet liner is for the spare tire (i think).

Sorry - I meant to say BJB's earlier post. The pics you saw me repost were from BondJamesBond's work along with JWG. (so sorry not to credit the correct poster)

 

[wenwe4]

EVIDENCE RELEASED 09/21/10:
» Investigative Photos Of Casey's Trunk

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/25097605/detail.html

Here are the original photos and the link

 

[joypath]

Gravity draws all body fluids to the lowest part of the body ie: the areas touching the ground and then they seep through the skin in those areas so the outline makes horrifying perfect sense. :sick: If I was a faster typer my post would have come before joypaths much more desriptive one. Tks Joypath!!

:seeya: YOU WHO! HEY THERE:seeya:! Yours is SO MUCH MORE betterer (sic) & gooder (sic)! :woohoo:TO THE point & easier to fathom!

 

[Boots-OK]

As revolting as these pictures are to us...I'm wondering, once again, EXACTLY WHAT did CA see in that trunk before she cleaned it? How much more evidence may have been there that she disposed of? Since she has misrepresented the truth on so many occasions, I'm now wondering just how bad was that trunk before she cleaned it? I'm convinced it was much worse than what we have seen. IMO

 

[Solace]

I tried to "roughly" outline in blue what I am seeing - hope this helps.


(respectfully I outlined on JWG's original work - just for reference - hope that is ok)

From this picture, it looks like all Caylee had on was a pull up diaper. I realize it is hard to tell because it is an outline, but it is an incredible outline. I remember KC saying at one time - "they haven't even found her clothes". This is not really relevant but it looks like she removed her shirt and just put her in the trunk. Evil b%$$ch. She really is.

I just cannot get the picture of this baby out of my head. It has to be shown at trial. Please God.

 

[Solace]

As revolting as these pictures are to us...I'm wondering, once again, EXACTLY WHAT did CA see in that trunk before she cleaned it? How much more evidence may have been there that she disposed of? Since she has misrepresented the truth on so many occasions, I'm now wondering just how bad was that trunk before she cleaned it? I'm convinced it was much worse than what we have seen. IMO

Me too! Especially when I watch her at the 911 hearings and how she lies whenever possible or tries to say she does not remember saying June 9th as the first date she gave. Who would forget that. And what is the reason for her lying. It is a rhetorical question.

 

[Solace]

OMG, your outline. OMG, that poor child. I know I've seen this before, but it's painful to see it again. It almost looks like she's sleeping...I so wish it just her sleeping, not a stain...my heart just hurts...I am just sick all over again. Justice cannot come soon enough for you Caylee! This Friday is going to be so hard to follow...

I can just imagine Casey sitting there scribbling and not reacting, as usual. I hope Cindy goes running out of the courtroom on Friday when they talk about this stain :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

It is an unbelievable picture of this baby. I hope they blow this picture up the size of a courtroom wall. I am so taken by it.

 

[cloud9]

ITA and I'm still wishing I hadn't taken a closer look at that picture. I go to bed with the chickens and get up with the chickens, but nightmares are plaguing me over this.

ETA, even though I know this is part of seeking Justice for Caylee. This made me physically sick and is keeping me awake. More so than seeing the place where my brother landed, after he was murdered and seeing the copus amount of blood that was still there a month later.

I am so very sorry about your brother.

 

[ynotdivein]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components
620, wenwe4, helpful outline/tracing of shape of child in stain

HTH!

 

[wenwe4]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components

HTH!

ynot - just wanted to say THANK YOU and Bless You and I so appreciate your work on pulling out these extremely pertinent posts. I was hoping to inspire others to read this thread - but you are right - it is a daunting task. I have been feeling guilty since last night because I feel as if my outlining the work done here by others is persuading people to see the picture a certain way. I was only trying to share what I was seeing - not what every one is necessarily "supposed to see". I hope the image that I outlined has not tainted everyone from seeing the picture on their own.

p.s. - I did not know you could set the number of posts per pages - so my page numbers don't add to to other peoples - so very sorry - but thanks for that tidbit of valuable info!

 

[Pattymarie]

I am shocked.
Is this what JB is trying to get thrown out? And if so, based on what?

 

[ynotdivein]

ynot - just wanted to say THANK YOU and Bless You and I so appreciate your work on pulling out these extremely pertinent posts. I was hoping to inspire others to read this thread - but you are right - it is a daunting task. I have been feeling guilty since last night because I feel as if my outlining the work done here by others is persuading people to see the picture a certain way. I was only trying to share what I was seeing - not what every one is necessarily "supposed to see". I hope the image that I outlined has not tainted everyone from seeing the picture on their own.

p.s. - I did not know you could set the number of posts per pages - so my page numbers don't add to to other peoples - so very sorry - but thanks for that tidbit of valuable info!

wenwe4, hi! :seeya:

I owe you an apology--I made my "notes" and then left for work, came back and did not update before typing. I've added in your (IMO very helpful & thought-provoking) outline in post 620--thank you for that addition. :blowkiss:

(As for setting posts-per-page, it's part of the settings if you go to the top of this page and click on "User CP" then look on the left for "Edit Options." In the middle of that page look for a blue bar that says "Thread Display Options" and the third option there is to set number of posts per page. I actually have mine set at 50 now, not 40 as I thought.)

 

[AZlawyer]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components
620, wenwe4, helpful outline/tracing of shape of child in stain

HTH!

Wow, thank you so much for this summary! But I must offer the disclaimer that my post #500 was based on using a ruler against a computer screen, which we have all since learned is "junk science." :innocent:

The BJB/JWG images strike me immediately as an outline of Caylee, and the more I look at it the more I can see the image of both arms bound at the wrist behind her back, with one hand bent under her leg. The State has, thus far, not disclosed any enhancement of the trunk stain photos that would show anything similar, though.