2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[cloud9]

Also, if she were placed in the garbage bag shortly after death/pre-rigor, that could also have affected the positioning of the feet in the same way as the laundry bag would. The foot would have gone through rigor in that position, and would not likely have shifted much if all KC did was reach in, drag the two garbage bags out by their handles, and either drop the garbage bags into the laundry bag upright, or "scoot" the laundry bag up over the garbage bags from the bottom up...

(BTW, thanks to all posters who suggest that these images are Caylee speaking to us from beyond the grave. These are horrible images and horrible things to think about--it's overwhelming at times until I remind myself that Caylee wanted this to come out, and needs this all to be understood.)

ETA: 3doglady, I know what you mean, and had trouble wrapping my head around that too, until I read USARDOG's story of what happened when s/he bagged a dead possum in two trash bags and left them on the concrete in a fairly sunny spot for a couple of days--apparently there was a possum "Shroud of Turin" left on the concrete and details were visible down to the eye.... I've come to believe that we are seeing a carpet version of the same process (though I have zero understanding of the science that would cause such an image transfer).

Bold mine~
Wow!!! When my Dad passed last year, I was holding his hand. I was shocked at how stiff his hand became. My brother came over to the bed and had to help get my hand removed from his because it was almost stuck to his.
Also, I missed USARDOG's story; interesting!

 

[wenwe4]

DH the ex-chemist says that "chloroform's volatility makes it an unlikely candidate for a fixative agent." (He followed this up with, "Has joypath gotten back to you yet?" He's learning, is DH.)

Well, I believe him and his word is good enough for me. I honestly think the decomp stains is what created the shroud negative outline of the impressions. I just am completely amazed at the amount of detail I am seeing, of course it could be that my eyes are just matrixing but I believe what the FBI stated in their emails.

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping USARDOG's story. Also a note that post 656 has an admittedly incomplete but "starter" index to what seem to be the most-referenced posts in this thread.

Decomp stains... Had something unusual happen about 2 weeks ago. Found in the street in front of my house a dead Opossum. Since I'm in Texas, he was a BIG fellow, much larger than our Florida Opossums, and quite handsome white and grey. Anyway, not wanting to see him turned into a road rash I scooped up his body with a shovel, (sound familiar?) and put him first in a construction grade black plastic bag, then in one of our Texas garbage bags for pick-up a couple of days later, and left him outside on the driveway next to the house. This area gets much afternoon sun. Well, he really started to smell! And when I picked up the bag to take it to the street, there "burned" into the concrete was an exact image of his body but it was in black. I could see the nose, eyes, ears, body and tail. It reminded me of a concrete "Shroud of Turin." Reading this thread, I can guess, before the carpet was washed, the image might very well have been far clearer. And who washed the carpet? They must surely have had to deal with a very realistic image.

 

[ynotdivein]

Bold mine~
Wow!!! When my Dad passed last year, I was holding his hand. I was shocked at how stiff his hand became. My brother came over to the bed and had to help get my hand removed from his because it was almost stuck to his.
Also, I missed USARDOG's story; interesting!

OT--cloud9, I had exactly the same experience when my dad died. It'll be 9 years in May. :hug: It gets better.

 

[wenwe4]

Bumping USARDOG's story. Also a note that post 656 has an admittedly incomplete but "starter" index to what seem to be the most-referenced posts in this thread.

thanks ynot - I actually read that about 3 days ago - but had forgotten that Usardog said image was definately there before washing - indicating CA really could not have missed this image before cleaning. I really now stand corrected - it must have been visible by the human eye. Wow - just Wow!

 

[hornswoggled]

Caylee left all she could to convey a message - her meager remains in a trash bag and a very telling stain in the trunk of her mother's car. I am grateful for the people who can decipher that message she left behind.


Casey Anthony has a trial coming up. She should not fear the outcome of the trial. What she needs to fear is the day she must leave this Earth. She was entrusted with the most precious of God's creations then turned and spit directly in his eye.

I cannot fathom sitting on that jury and seeing this evidence.

 

[bogeygal]

Thought this was very interesting after reading all about the stain in KC's trunk. Link to article is below.


Snipped: In the absence of evidence such as bones, clothing or strands of hair, forensic investigators can verify whether a body decomposed at a site indoors by looking for traces of lingering fat deposits, according to a new report.

Snipped: Photo of body stain in article at link below. Though the corpse was removed and the site was cleaned, the concrete floor where the patient was found bore a distinct white stain in the shape of a woman’s body. The odd mark has puzzled past and current custodians of the facility, which is now owned by Ohio University and used for offices, studios and an art museum. (The actual location of the stain is in an unused portion of the building and is closed to the public.)


http://www.physorg.com/news144955495.html

 

[wenwe4]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components
620, wenwe4, helpful outline/tracing of shape of child in stain

HTH!

Bumpin :great:

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping this post for the useful pictures of the red stain on the white trash bag that was taken out of the trunk at the tow yard. The reddish stain seems to correspond to the semi-circular stain in the trunk, though I don't think we have done measurements to compare at this point. (I also don't know if the bag itself was tested--the contents sure were examined but have we seen anything about this substance on the outside of the white garbage bag?)

I hope this latest screen shot makes sense. My method is definitely uncertain and my brain needs to reboot.
The purple on the wheel cover is actually where the color changed for me on the spare tire cover. Whereas with the rest of the trunk, the greenish tint from left directly at the brake light wrapping up, running behind the back seat and the right bump at the right rear changed on the other photos.

Now visualize that, in here;

I have been trying to be able to recognize decomposition by comparison :waitasec:

 

[LolaMoon08]

Bumping this post for the useful pictures of the red stain on the white trash bag that was taken out of the trunk at the tow yard. The reddish stain seems to correspond to the semi-circular stain in the trunk, though I don't think we have done measurements to compare at this point. (I also don't know if the bag itself was tested--the contents sure were examined but have we seen anything about this substance on the outside of the white garbage bag?)

Did they test the white trash bag at all? There is obviously some sort of stain caused by??

 

[ynotdivein]

Dunno, Lola. AFAIK neither GA nor Simon Birch the towyard guy mention this stain in their depos.

But in addition to the central "basketball-shaped" stain (reference courtesy GA), I think I see the crown of Caylee's head outlined in red toward the top of the bag closest to the handles.

 

[wenwe4]

I bumped the other thread that I think goes with this thread . . .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99561&highlight=stains+laundry+bag+caylee&page=2

 

[AZlawyer]

You know, as depressing as this thread is, I am so glad someone bumped it, because it will make it a lot harder for the jury to buy the "accident, cover-up, mental-illness-suppression-of-emotions" defense theory I suggested if it appears that Caylee's hands and arms were bound behind her back. If someone was trying to make a dead body LOOK kidnapped (and believe me, I have zero experience in this) I wouldn't think it would occur to you to do such a good job of the restraints. This looks more like an attempt to prevent a live person from fighting back.

 

[LancelotLink]

This takes me back to the interview GA gave to FBI, the one where he did see into the trunk on gas can day. He said he saw laundry. He said the gas cans were inside the blue bin, so could he have seen the Whitney laundry bag? The reason I mentioned the gas cans inside the blue bin is I got confused from the deposition, seemed like he was saying at the tow yard, there was clothes were in the blue bin. IIRC.

 

[lemon]

TallyHo and wenwe4 see a thin white line around the torso. I see it too and I just had an "aha" moment.

I think it could be the indentation from the wire that wraps around the laundry bag.

I have no idea if this idea fits with all the other stuff we know but I'll throw it out there:

I see the body in a somewhat cross-legged position, with both arms in front. Scene of the crime: Imagine the laundry bag open on the floor. Imagine Caylee being placed in it, deceased or drugged. KC holds her around the torso, her feet dangle. As Caylee's feet hit the bottom of the bag, her knees bend. Her hands, bound or not, rest on her lap. Caylee ends up looking like she is sitting cross-legged in the bag, with her one foot pressed against the side. The bag is placed in the trunk, upright. As KC drives around, the body shifts and causes the bag to topple over. The body is now positioned face down. This causes the stain we are seeing with the faint white ring being the wire from the laundry bag.

I think this fits pretty well except it doesn't account for the garbage bags and that bothers me. Maybe the garbage bags come later when KC opens the trunk and sees that there is a mess to deal with? Maybe what I wrote above all stays the same but the body is placed cross legged in a garbage bag first, then the laundry bag? I feel like something is obvious here that I'm not seeing.

OK wow, as I wrote that, something came to me. What if KC lined the laundry bag with a garbage bag, like you would do with your trash can? Top of the garbage bag folded over the laundry bag's edge. Then she places Caylee in the bags as I wrote above and pulls the drawstring closed on the garbage bag. This could make sense. It would be a very easy way to get the body in both bags.

Ok brainstorm session over. Curious to see what others think.

 

[Phumi]

It's going to be really hard for the defense to convince a jury that "lunchmeat" and "pizza" rotting inside of a garbage bag coincidentally shifted into the shape of a toddler.

 

[cloud9]

OT--cloud9, I had exactly the same experience when my dad died. It'll be 9 years in May. :hug: It gets better.

Thank you for sharing. My Dad passed in the month of May also; the 15th. I see you must have been surprised at how quickly the process starts also.

 

[cloud9]

Bumping USARDOG's story. Also a note that post 656 has an admittedly incomplete but "starter" index to what seem to be the most-referenced posts in this thread.

Thank you! And thanks to USARDOG for sharing this!

 

[strawberry]

The other day I was looking up info on post-mortem fluid purging. I wasn't sure if it purged through the pores or out of orifices. I did find an article but did not post ithere because the pics are rather graphic. One picture shows decomp fluid coming out of the nose and/or mouth of a corpse. The fluid is the exact color of the red on that white trash bag.

 

[cloud9]

The other day I was looking up info on post-mortem fluid purging. I wasn't sure if it purged through the pores or out of orifices. I did find an article but did not post ithere because the pics are rather graphic. One picture shows decomp fluid coming out of the nose and/or mouth of a corpse. The fluid is the exact color of the red on that white trash bag.

Ok, THAT is interesting! There has been so much speculation about what the red was on that bag. Thank you!!!

ETA~ Ok, I just found one too. I am shocked! It IS the same color as what is on the bags!!!