2011.01.11 Info RE: Caylee's Second Autopsy

[Itsy]

I don't think it's going to possible to know with certainty that the remains were laid on the left side or upright. Tropical storm Fay hit the area on August 21, 2008 and before it was over dumped a lot of rain. I think it's likely the remains were carried with the current and motion of the water, and came to rest where they were found after the water subsided.

Not to mention the animals pulling her poor little body this way & that.

Do they really expect anyone to believe the body stayed exactly as it was placed (dumped) from the day it was put there until it was found? :banghead:

 

[Horace Finklestein]

So how many directions are they going in now? How does this relate to any of their other pseudo theories about Kronk, the Grunds, Zanny, etc? Why are they allowed to have so many unrelated trial balloons floating out there? Utter nonsense. Time for someone to get disbarred, get a real lawyer in there and plead this turkey out, imo. Good LORD!

 

[TotallyObsessed]

IOW that CA and GA would read this autopsy report, instead of relying on the BS that JB and company spew their way. If that doesn't open their eyes as to what a cold blooded killer their "President of the Company" is...I don't know what would. How they could even look at KC after reading that autopsy report is BEYOND ME.

 

[Georgia PI]

You have to remember that it is the Defenses job to try and discredit any and everything that the Prosecutors have; I bet you see and hear a lot more crap before the court date.

Phil Spector Trial ~ Dr Werner Spitz Flips out on the Stand ~ Question of Money Slows Phil Spector Trial

http://losangelestrials.blogspot.com/2009/02/phil-spector-trial-dr-werner-spitz.html

Phil Spector was 'splattered with blood', Dr Werner Spitz, who was appearing for the defence, rejected suggestions that lots of blood landed on Spector.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1558690/Phil-Spector-was-splattered-with-blood.html

Forensic Expert In Spector Case Points At 'Holes' In Prosecution's 'Puzzle'

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.ns...oints-at-holes-in-prosecutions-puzzle_1038780

Much more, just Google his name

 

[Macushla]

So how many directions are they going in now? How does this relate to any of their other pseudo theories about Kronk, the Grunds, Zanny, etc? Why are they allowed to have so many unrelated trial balloons floating out there? Utter nonsense. Time for someone to get disbarred, get a real lawyer in there and plead this turkey out, imo. Good LORD!

Unfortunately, or fortunately if you are a defendant, the defense is allowed to float as many trial balloons as they want - until trial comes. THEN anything they say, after their opening statement that is, they have to back up with proof. This is nothing new or different for defense attorneys and prosecutors know it's going to happen.

This just happens to be a high profile case where every word the defense utters is reported on. This goes on all the time in cases, high profile or not. Floating theories around is not something a defense attorney can get disbarred for - if it was, there wouldn't be very many defense attorneys practicing law right now

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

I guess we all know, IF Dr.G HAD taken the skull apart, the defense would have complained about "compromised evidence" or that they weren't able to get an intact examination of the skull....lose/lose situation for Dr. G...IMO

As far as the dirt on the left side of the skull...maybe I'm not gettin it, but, it would mean, IMO, that the remains MUST have been there in August and before, because the area was under H2O at that time....as we've been told by many searchers....so, the remains would have been under H2O, as well.
The body HAD to be totally skeletonized or pretty close to it at that time, because, again IMO, it needed to be covered in muddy/dirty H2O in order for there to be H2O settling in the left side of the skull and then when the
H2O subsided and dried up....it left the dirt residue on the left side.
Dr. Spitz is almost straight out saying there was water...which IMO...would be neccessary to CREATE the dirt to "settle" on the left side.

After the skull/dirt dried, I can be more than positive animals came scavenging to see what was there...we've all probably had experience with nosey raccoons riping up garbage bags and spreading anything in them...or what was left in them. So that's why in different position....AND, I agree with the other poster (sorry, I didn't quote them) that I don't remember states experts saying the skull was "upright"...maybe Kronk said it??? AND...Kronk stated he "kicked the bag" (or poked it with a stick) and the skull kinda rolled out...IIRC.

Also...the part about the states investigators reporting the skull found facing "up"....WHY would the state report anything else?? They found it that way. Just seems to me, in reading the opinion/findings of Dr. Spitz....the defense is almost faulting not only Dr. G, but the investigators for the state, as well. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
The article from the Orlando Sentinel states..... The skull was facing up, "AS CLAIMED" by the investigators as well as experts for the prosecution.


All IMO...hope I made some sense.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I guess we all know, IF Dr.G HAD taken the skull apart, the defense would have complained about "compromised evidence" or that they weren't able to get an intact examination of the skull....lose/lose situation for Dr. G...IMO

As far as the dirt on the left side of the skull...maybe I'm not gettin it, but, it would mean, IMO, that the remains MUST have been there in August and before, because the area was under H2O at that time....as we've been told by many searchers....so, the remains would have been under H2O, as well.
The body HAD to be totally skeletonized or pretty close to it at that time, because, again IMO, it needed to be covered in muddy/dirty H2O in order for there to be H2O settling in the left side of the skull and then when the
H2O subsided and dried up....it left the dirt residue on the left side.
Dr. Spitz is almost straight out saying there was water...which IMO...would be neccessary to CREATE the dirt to "settle" on the left side.

After the skull/dirt dried, I can be more than positive animals came scavenging to see what was there...we've all probably had experience with nosey raccoons riping up garbage bags and spreading anything in them...or what was left in them. So that's why in different position....AND, I agree with the other poster (sorry, I didn't quote them) that I don't remember states experts saying the skull was "upright"...maybe Kronk said it??? AND...Kronk stated he "kicked the bag" (or poked it with a stick) and the skull kinda rolled out...IIRC.

Also...the part about the states investigators reporting the skull found facing "up"....WHY would the state report anything else?? They found it that way. Just seems to me, in reading the opinion/findings of Dr. Spitz....the defense is almost faulting not only Dr. G, but the investigators for the state, as well. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
The article from the Orlando Sentinel states..... The skull was facing up, "AS CLAIMED" by the investigators as well as experts for the prosecution.


All IMO...hope I made some sense.

In order to do an autopsy a ME has to open the skull to inspect it and the contents. Usually this is done by surgically opening it. With Caylee it wasn't necessary to do anything other than remove the duct tape,then the parts could be separated . No one who does a second autopsy can expect to find the body or skull intact.

 

[LCoastMom]

"The additional information offered up today includes a statement that defense expert Dr. Werner Spitz would testify that an examination of the remains by Orange-Osceola Chief Medical Examiner Jan Garavaglia "was less than the appropriate standard for such a medical examiner's protocol."

Spitz would testify that the discovered skull should have been opened by Garavaglia, something Spitz did in his "second autopsy," according to the motion. Spitz, according to the document, discovered a dirt or mud deposit inside the cranium, on the left side – something Garavaglia did not discover.

Spitz, the motion states, "would testify that that is material because it indicates that the remains had been laid on the left side … and, therefore, the body had not been left in an upright or straightforward position as has been claimed by investigators, as well as the experts for the prosecution."

Here's the full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-jose-baez-sanction-appeal-20110111,0,4602564.story

BBM - I hope this information, IF presented to a jury has the same effect on them that it had on me - that little Caylee wasn't desecrated enough by her mother with a roll of duct tape and being left in a swamp - for this person to come along and crack open her little skull, to spew nonsense just pizzed me off all over again.

Go ahead defense give it your best shot - you just can't help but make your client look worse and worse.

 

[ZsaZsa]

"The additional information offered up today includes a statement that defense expert Dr. Werner Spitz would testify that an examination of the remains by Orange-Osceola Chief Medical Examiner Jan Garavaglia "was less than the appropriate standard for such a medical examiner's protocol."

Spitz would testify that the discovered skull should have been opened by Garavaglia, something Spitz did in his "second autopsy," according to the motion. Spitz, according to the document, discovered a dirt or mud deposit inside the cranium, on the left side – something Garavaglia did not discover.

Spitz, the motion states, "would testify that that is material because it indicates that the remains had been laid on the left side … and, therefore, the body had not been left in an upright or straightforward position as has been claimed by investigators, as well as the experts for the prosecution."

Here's the full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-jose-baez-sanction-appeal-20110111,0,4602564.story

Joypath- why would Dr Spitz feel that Dr G should have 'opened the skull' when the two component parts were only held together by duct tape. Once removal of the duct tape had been achieved, the Cranium and the Mandible would be separate and the interior open to inspection wouldn't it ?

 

[jon_burrows]

Is this the big Ah Ha moment Baez promised that once we heard we would all understand? :waitasec: Casey is innocent because there was mud in the skull after 6 months in a swamp. I would think something hinky was up if there wasn't any mud or dirt.

How could there NOT be mud considering the condition Caylee was left in to be torn apart by animals and the elements in a swamp?

Never mind...great theory JB. Hope you float that one by a jury, pretty please. Your client will skip out of jail with this brilliant move.


IMO

 

[ziggy]

IMHO Dr. Spitz is like many of these forensic fame w*o*es that get a taste of the fame and then do what they must to hold onto their shrinking shred of it. I'll put H. Lee in that category as well and that other old codger Wecht. Come on! You've got basically half a skull with zero tissue and you feel it necessary to what, saw it open??? to inspect the interior??? You are not smarter than a 5th grader.

 

[jon_burrows]

I guess we all know, IF Dr.G HAD taken the skull apart, the defense would have complained about "compromised evidence" or that they weren't able to get an intact examination of the skull....lose/lose situation for Dr. G...IMO

As far as the dirt on the left side of the skull...maybe I'm not gettin it, but, it would mean, IMO, that the remains MUST have been there in August and before, because the area was under H2O at that time....as we've been told by many searchers....so, the remains would have been under H2O, as well.
The body HAD to be totally skeletonized or pretty close to it at that time, because, again IMO, it needed to be covered in muddy/dirty H2O in order for there to be H2O settling in the left side of the skull and then when the
H2O subsided and dried up....it left the dirt residue on the left side.
Dr. Spitz is almost straight out saying there was water...which IMO...would be neccessary to CREATE the dirt to "settle" on the left side.

After the skull/dirt dried, I can be more than positive animals came scavenging to see what was there...we've all probably had experience with nosey raccoons riping up garbage bags and spreading anything in them...or what was left in them. So that's why in different position....AND, I agree with the other poster (sorry, I didn't quote them) that I don't remember states experts saying the skull was "upright"...maybe Kronk said it??? AND...Kronk stated he "kicked the bag" (or poked it with a stick) and the skull kinda rolled out...IIRC.

Also...the part about the states investigators reporting the skull found facing "up"....WHY would the state report anything else?? They found it that way. Just seems to me, in reading the opinion/findings of Dr. Spitz....the defense is almost faulting not only Dr. G, but the investigators for the state, as well. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
The article from the Orlando Sentinel states..... The skull was facing up, "AS CLAIMED" by the investigators as well as experts for the prosecution.


All IMO...hope I made some sense.

Great post and it made me think of what a common sense case this really is. I would venture to guess that we've all made the mistake of leaving garbage out only to regret it later. My husband just recently left a black garbage bag next to the trash can but didn't put it inside with the lid. I left for work three hours later and the critters had already ripped the black bag to pieces and trash was thrown all over our yard. Parts of the black bag were even shredded. The way the autopsy report described the bag was eerily similar to what our black bag looked like.

It makes me so sad for Caylee knowing what her body went through. No body should be desecrated like that.

IMO

 

[Star12]

The skull was washed with a saline solution by the OME. Would this not leave a damp, possibly slightly muddy residue which then dried, leaving an area that appeared muddy. Surely the ME would not prop the skull up to dry, would they? Would it not be laid down on its side? Did Spitz check for salinity?
JMHO

 

[whiteangora]

IMHO Dr. Spitz is like many of these forensic fame w*o*es that get a taste of the fame and then do what they must to hold onto their shrinking shred of it. I'll put H. Lee in that category as well and that other old codger Wecht. Come on! You've got basically half a skull with zero tissue and you feel it necessary to what, saw it open??? to inspect the interior??? You are not smarter than a 5th grader.

IMO, if all of JB's experts continue to provide this kind of 'expertise' then the prosecution can just sit back and let the defense win the case for the State.

 

[mydailyopinions]

Yeah well...good luck to ya on that one Baez :loser:

 

[Nore]

Saw this new topic on the way outta here & remembered that Dr. G did note dirt being inside the skull. (See page 8 of her autopsy report.) WTH does Dr. Spitz mean??? Cranium is part of the skull, right?

Sorry I can't c&p it from the pfd - need to learn that one day!

---------------------

Hi Itsy,I remember this also.FGS her body,bones were floating in muddy water!! what do they expect.This jury will be from Florida, trying to knock Dr. G. who has more knowledge in her little finger than they have in their whole body will backfire on them. This just proves how weak they are.Animal
activity also moved Caylee as another poster said.Only God and the murderer know what position she was placed in..sick.

 

[kaRN]

I've been thinking long and hard about Dr G finding debris and a tooth in her examination and Dr Spitz finding mud. Dr G flushed out the debris using saline, to prove it was only debris and what sort of debris it was. She states she used high intensity light and radiographs to examine the skull and would have held it and moved it under the light to visualize the interior. As she saw and probably heard the contents inside move around, she made an educated guess it was debris and not brain tissue and decided to flush out the cavities of the skull to obtain a sample to prove her theory.
Debris would never be used in refence to even the smallest bone on any type of medical reporting. Note her autopsy differentiates between an incisor and other developing teeth and debris. Debris is particles of dirt, leaves, gravel that when mixed with saline, would form mud.
Caylee was in the process of drying out when she was found. The debris in her cranium was dry on exam or Dr G would have used different descriptors in her report IMO and would have suctioned or opened the skull, rather than flushed the skull to remove it. After flushing the debris she required for testing out there would have been some left still in liquid form inside the skull.
After autopsy #1, the remains would have been returned to their anatomically correct place on the table, not back into a reconstructed jumbled mess like they found her so the revelation Dr Spitz has had about his discovey of mud and linking that to anything the SAO may have said about an upright position is total carp IMVHO anyway. It pooled there after autopsy #1 because without neck muscles to keep it facing forward, the skull rolled to the left side.
LKB warned the court via skype at one of the hearings that evidence changed after testing and it did.
If that forensic bombshell you dropped was supposed to be my Ahhhhhhh moment Mr Baez, it failed. :seeya: :loser:MO

 

[AZlawyer]

To help in our discussion of whether Dr. S's "mud" might just be Dr. G's "debris" combined with salt water from the saline wash done by Dr. G:

December 18, 2008 saline wash of cranial cavity by Dr. G (for toxicology purposes IIRC)
December 24, 2008 second autopsy by Dr. S

So only 6 days in between...and I'm sure the skull was kept in a fairly protected environment during that time.

 

[logicalgirl]

To help in our discussion of whether Dr. S's "mud" might just be Dr. G's "debris" combined with salt water from the saline wash done by Dr. G:

December 18, 2008 saline wash of cranial cavity by Dr. G (for toxicology purposes IIRC)
December 24, 2008 second autopsy by Dr. S

So only 6 days in between...and I'm sure the skull was kept in a fairly protected environment during that time.

So AZ, you are saying these "results" from Dr. S. were made TWO years ago and Baez via CM is just using them as an excuse for a late report filing now to try to get out of sanctions?:banghead:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

" 'Now you've called into question a large part of the state's case,' said veteran defense attorney and prosecutor Jeff Deen, who is not affiliated with the case.
Deen said Spitz' findings are also significant because he claims the medical examiner didn't open the skull during the first autopsy, which would be against protocol."

http://www.wesh.com/r/26471656/detail.html

Joypath, would this be "against protocol?" And if so, how bad could that be?