2011.01.11 Info RE: Caylee's Second Autopsy

[The World According]

What people say someone will testify to is not always what they actually testify to. Dr. G was aware of the significance of this examination. so I am sure she took many precautions. Besides, how could debris get into her skull before it was decomposed. Also most experts don't actually get to handle the body, jsut review what had been done. I don't think Spitz is as good as he thinks he is.

Think Scott Peterson and how Garegos said that Wecht and Lee would testify to this and that. They never even got on the stand. What is said in public is NOT what is said under oath in court.
NOot to mention that it's stated in a defense MOTION which is not made under oath or anything of significance. It's just more defense BS and it should be taken as such.

Gaia, it is always good to see you on the board. This is exactly what I thought, only you put it much more politely than I. As soon as I read the hogwash...Dr. Spitz is shocked that Dr. G. did not do x y or z, I thought, the representations the defense are making are guess what.....not direct quotes from the expert. I find the take the defense has on things may as well be PigLatin!!!

Indeed the experts are likely sitting there with their mouths hung open reading the spin the lawyer put on what they talked about, shocked; because, it is very, very far removed from what they said. The inferences Baez and Mason draw from conversations are likely, no where near the intent. This is why having the reports from the actual experts is imperative. We know that Baez and Mason can leave a hearing and in the two minute walk out to the courthouse steps, get it all wrong....opine to reporters nearly opposite of what the judge just now ruled. (At the fraud hearing, part of the ruling, no contact with Amy, ever. Baez says to reporters, regarding Amy..Casey would love to hear from her, if she is watching today...Casey has missed her friend, would love a letter from her.... praphrased. WTH? That is just one of a million examples.)

I am sure that Dr. Spitz is not nearly as confused about these matters as Jose and Cheney are. I am sure that when he testifies he will have no such criticism of Dr. G., and certainly none that will survive questions one through five on redirect from Mr. Ashton. Jeff Ashton will mop the floor with that if he does adopt any nonsense.

I would venture to guess that much like how thoroughly ticked off Terry L. was about his disagreements with Jose, many, many of the experts have come to have a considerable disdain for these particular defense lawyers and are NOT about to say or do anything to embarass themselves professionally in order to appease them. That is the problem with trying this case ten minutes at a time....putting things out there in the media on someone else's behalf. Folks don't take kindly to someone else putting words in their mouth, especially far reaching things that one would never say, that make no sense whatsoever. Volunteering to help pro bono is one thing, having someone put words in your mouth and taint your professional reputation is quite another. I imagine Jose has and will receive more than one don't you dare ever attach my name to any more of your asenine statements again, phone calls.

This reminds me of
Jose,
Todd and
Andrea
all, in different hearings, saying on the record that there is a conflict of interest for Mark Nejame to have once worked with mom and pop and now representing TES. At all three hearings, Brad, to his credit, literally
shook his head NO,
rolled his wheelchair up front,
got Judge Strickland's attention
and said no, that is not correct, the Anthonys are not asserting any such thing, indeed they have signed a waiver of conflict of interest for Mr. Nejame.


After the defense being shown to be lying or wrong the first time, one would think they would never bring up that false claim again, but alas they did, not only one more time, or two more times.....but it culminated in Brad literally resigning over it the very last time ( mom and pop tried to write that ridiculous letter, and Brad said.....no...that is just not true and I will NOT go along with that ...hmmmmm...misreprentation).

Bottom line is like you say Gia.....just because the defense lawyer claims that is the expert's position is no, literally zero indication ...that is what the expert will testify to at all.

The way, the very best way to predict someone's future behavior is by their past behavior, so I say this with conviction......I just do not take a thing they say as correct or true. Even if they were trying to be completely forthright, the evidence has shown, repeeatedly, that they often have a very poor understanding...so either by accident or design, anything they claim their experts will say is in my estimation wrong.

You must keep in mind, this is the crew that had Todd stading in open court claiming they had witnesses who will prove that the baby's little skeleton was put there after Casey was jailed. We later learned these would be witnesses were non other than Laura and Joe and how fast that blew up in their faces.
Coming from the folks who thought Jill Kerley would save the day....... you just can't make this stuff up.


We also have to keep in mind this is the defense team that
tried to have the prosecutors removed from the case
asked Judge Strickland to step aside
tried to say Jesse and Amy are suspects
tried to say Kronk should be a suspect
tried to maniplate both Bret's ( TES searchers ) to the point where they contacted LE over it,
tried to present Laura's testimony and document as legit
tried to say mom made up her seeming shock on the 911 call.....
tried to hand in a check with a wink and say but don't cash it.....
tried to explain the reason their docs due at noon were late was because of five o clock traffic......

for goodness sake ...is anyone surprised that they would put a spin on what they thought their expert meant?


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5710206&postcount=84"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.10.20 - PI Lyons Accused of Witness Tampering[/ame]

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
You can make this stuff up if you are going to sign your name as one of the lawyers for Casey Marie Anthony.

marinadedave - Front Page - Casey trial will stay in OrangeMay 10, 2010 ... I stood near Cheney Mason. Because we were close, I decided to discuss something . “Skin cancer?” Yes, he responded. ...
marinadedave.com/journal/.../5/.../casey-trial-will-stay-in-orange.html - Cached
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTGZmJeOSQ8[/ame]

here it is...Brad said the defense filed false and misleadding pleadings

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlmGd15FEiQ[/ame]

I trust we are simply seeing more of the same in this case.

 

[Reagan]

What people say someone will testify to is not always what they actually testify to. Dr. G was aware of the significance of this examination. so I am sure she took many precautions. Besides, how could debris get into her skull before it was decomposed. Also most experts don't actually get to handle the body, jsut review what had been done. I don't think Spitz is as good as he thinks he is.

Think Scott Peterson and how Garegos said that Wecht and Lee would testify to this and that. They never even got on the stand. What is said in public is NOT what is said under oath in court.

NOot to mention that it's stated in a defense MOTION which is not made under oath or anything of significance. It's just more defense BS and it should be taken as such.

Exactly. It's all about pre-trial publicity and tainting the potential jury pool.

During the Melanie McGuire trial (nurse that dismembered her husband in 3 pieces, shoved him in 3 suitcases, and dropped him off the Chesapeake bay bridge) the front page news stated that she had passed a polygraph. It came out the day that jury deliberations began.

The closer the trial gets, we will be seeing much more garbage like this in an attempt to taint the jury pool. Gag order or not, the defense team will manage to leak false info to the media.

BS indeed...

 

[The World According]

That is pretty funny. Dr. G. is the Orange County Medical Examiner. She is an employee of the county that has jurisdiction over the case. She does not insert herself - it's her job.

The defense better pick a more likely villian. We heard from Dr. G ONE time, to make the announcement.

 

[Gaia713]

Gaia, it is always good to see you on the board. This is exactly what I thought, only you put it much more politely than I. As soon as I read the hogwash...Dr. Spitz is shocked that Dr. G. did not do x y or z, I thought, the representations the defense are making are guess what.....not direct quotes from the expert. I find the take the defense has on things may as well be PigLatin!!!

Indeed the experts are likely sitting there with their mouths hung open reading the spin the lawyer put on what they talked about, shocked; because, it is very, very far removed from what they said. The inferences Baez and Mason draw from conversations are likely, no where near the intent. This is why having the reports from the actual experts is imperative. We know that Baez and Mason can leave a hearing and in the two minute walk out to the courthouse steps, get it all wrong....opine to reporters nearly opposite of what the judge just now ruled. (At the fraud hearing, part of the ruling, no contact with Amy, ever. Baez says to reporters, regarding Amy..Casey would love to hear from her, if she is watching today...Casey has missed her friend, would love a letter from her.... praphrased. WTH? That is just one of a million examples.)

I am sure that Dr. Spitz is not nearly as confused about these matters as Jose and Cheney are. I am sure that when he testifies he will have no such criticism of Dr. G., and certainly none that will survive questions one through five on redirect from Mr. Ashton. Jeff Ashton will mop the floor with that if he does adopt any nonsense.

I would venture to guess that much like how thoroughly ticked off Terry L. was about his disagreements with Jose, many, many of the experts have come to have a considerable disdain for these particular defense lawyers and are NOT about to say or do anything to embarass themselves professionally in order to appease them. That is the problem with trying this case ten minutes at a time....putting things out there in the media on someone else's behalf. Folks don't take kindly to someone else putting words in their mouth, especially far reaching things that one would never say, that make no sense whatsoever. Volunteering to help pro bono is one thing, having someone put words in your mouth and taint your professional reputation is quite another. I imagine Jose has and will receive more than one don't you dare ever attach my name to any more of your asenine statements again, phone calls.

This reminds me of
Jose,
Todd and
Andrea
all, in different hearings, saying on the record that there is a conflict of interest for Mark Nejame to have once worked with mom and pop and now representing TES. At all three hearings, Brad, to his credit, literally
shook his head NO,
rolled his wheelchair up front,
got Judge Strickland's attention
and said no, that is not correct, the Anthonys are not asserting any such thing, indeed they have signed a waiver of conflict of interest for Mr. Nejame.


After the defense being shown to be lying or wrong the first time, one would think they would never bring up that false claim again, but alas they did, not only one more time, or two more times.....but it culminated in Brad literally resigning over it the very last time ( mom and pop tried to write that ridiculous letter, and Brad said.....no...that is just not true and I will NOT go along with that ...hmmmmm...misreprentation).

Bottom line is like you say Gia.....just because the defense lawyer claims that is the expert's position is no, literally zero indication ...that is what the expert will testify to at all.

The way, the very best way to predict someone's future behavior is by their past behavior, so I say this with conviction......I just do not take a thing they say as correct or true. Even if they were trying to be completely forthright, the evidence has shown, repeeatedly, that they often have a very poor understanding...so either by accident or design, anything they claim their experts will say is in my estimation wrong.

You must keep in mind, this is the crew that had Todd stading in open court claiming they had witnesses who will prove that the baby's little skeleton was put there after Casey was jailed. We later learned these would be witnesses were non other than Laura and Joe and how fast that blew up in their faces.
Coming from the folks who thought Jill Kerley would save the day....... you just can't make this stuff up.


We also have to keep in mind this is the defense team that
tried to have the prosecutors removed from the case
asked Judge Strickland to step aside
tried to say Jesse and Amy are suspects
tried to say Kronk should be a suspect
tried to maniplate both Bret's ( TES searchers ) to the point where they contacted LE over it,
tried to present Laura's testimony and document as legit
tried to say mom made up her seeming shock on the 911 call.....
tried to hand in a check with a wink and say but don't cash it.....
tried to explain the reason their docs due at noon were late was because of five o clock traffic......

for goodness sake ...is anyone surprised that they would put a spin on what they thought their expert meant?


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.10.20 - PI Lyons Accused of Witness Tampering

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
You can make this stuff up if you are going to sign your name as one of the lawyers for Casey Marie Anthony.

marinadedave - Front Page - Casey trial will stay in OrangeMay 10, 2010 ... I stood near Cheney Mason. Because we were close, I decided to discuss something . “Skin cancer?” Yes, he responded. ...
marinadedave.com/journal/.../5/.../casey-trial-will-stay-in-orange.html - Cached
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTGZmJeOSQ8

here it is...Brad said the defense filed false and misleadding pleadings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlmGd15FEiQ

I trust we are simply seeing more of the same in this case.

Well said. Another important thing to remember during the trial is that NOTHING the attorneys say is under oath. Consequently they will say ANYTHING they can to trick the jury. And since the defense persists in putting pure lies out there - like the duct tape was not over the mouth - the autopsy said it was attached to the mandible and the maxillary - in my book, that's over the mouth!! Maybe they just don't know what a mandible is.

http://www.smartimagebase.com/anatomy-of-the-maxilla-and-mandible-jaw-bone/view-item?ItemID=3535

 

[beach]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92404"]Just a reminder[/ame]

 

[Aedrys]

The defense better pick a more likely villian. We heard from Dr. G ONE time, to make the announcement.

Yes, I will NEVER forget that one time either. And she looked like she was DYING to say a lot more than she could actually say. I can't wait to see her on the stand in court. Spitz can't even spit on her shoes!

 

[seagull65]

Not to mention the animals pulling her poor little body this way & that.

Do they really expect anyone to believe the body stayed exactly as it was placed (dumped) from the day it was put there until it was found? :banghead:

how would the skull have wound up in the position the crime scene reports described it in, upright like it was, if had been blown or dragged around by the elements or animals...?

I thought it was only lower parts of the spine or hips etc that appeared to have been moved by animal predation as far as we'd seen so far in the documents? (just posting from the front of the thread here.)

(I did always think it was curious about her skull supposedly being upright like that anyway. Hard to imagine how it would wind up in that position regardless how she was laid there.)

...in RK's calls to LE reporting the find of the remains IIRC he described the skull as being under a white board that was leaning on the log or hanging over the log or something along those lines, it gives the impression of the remains still being pretty much in a place where they'd been placed and a board leaned over the top to conceal them, you know. I mean if the skull was moved around by animals or water how would it have put itself rightside up concealed under a board like that etc?

I always wondered why we didn't hear more about the board later, would have been nice for it to have been checked for prints. I don't remember mention of the board still being over the skull in the crime scene reports etc.

 

[seagull65]

Also...the part about the states investigators reporting the skull found facing "up"....WHY would the state report anything else?? They found it that way. Just seems to me, in reading the opinion/findings of Dr. Spitz....the defense is almost faulting not only Dr. G, but the investigators for the state, as well. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
The article from the Orlando Sentinel states..... The skull was facing up, "AS CLAIMED" by the investigators as well as experts for the prosecution.


All IMO...hope I made some sense.

I thought the crime scene reports described the skull as sitting upright, facing toward the curtain of vines, etc, some hair still lying over the top ....IIRC. Some of us wondered back at the time how it had come to be sitting upright, rather than lying back for example. Now I'm going to have to go back and read those things again Tink! honestly some of it is getting a bit rusty after this long

 

[LolaMoon08]

When Roy Kronk lifted or kicked the bag, he said that the skull rolled out... and then said that he couldn't be sure if it actually rolled out of the bag or the movement of the bag made it move the skull. I have no problem with Roy Kronk not knowing for sure exactly how anything happened since it had to be a very shocking and devastating moment and I am sure it happened very fast. I do not envy him.

However the movement was done, it could explain why, when LE arrived, Caylee's skull was found upright. They simply reported what they found when they arrived. It doesn't mean that Caylee's skull was upright the entire 6 months that she was out in those woods.

MOO

 

[Aedrys]

When Roy Kronk lifted or kicked the bag, he said that the skull rolled out... and then said that he couldn't be sure if it actually rolled out of the bag or the movement of the bag made it move the skull. I have no problem with Roy Kronk not knowing for sure exactly how anything happened since it had to be a very shocking and devastating moment and I am sure it happened very fast. I do not envy him.

However the movement was done, it could explain why, when LE arrived, Caylee's skull was found upright. They simply reported what then found when they arrived. It doesn't mean that Caylee's skull was upright the entire 6 months that she was out in those woods.

MOO

That and a hurricane, and a swampy environment, oh, and animals tearing the body apart. That skull would have be to cemented to the ground to stay upright for six months.

 

[ynotdivein]

Whatever position Caylee's skull was in when LE arrived on the scene, after all the indignities it had suffered--due to her mother's 31 days of lies, due to the elements, and to the scavengers--her little skull still had three pieces of duct tape wrapped around it.

Three pieces of duct tape long enough to hold her hair and her mandible to her skull, no matter how the elements and the scavengers tugged and pulled at her.

It matters little which position Caylee's skull would be found in after enduring all that. The central and enduring fact remains that it was found with those three pieces of Henkel duct tape wrapped so very very tightly around it.

ETA: And no doubt the second autopsy did not find the three layers of Henkel duct tape adhered around the skull such that it held the mandible in place--the M.E. had to remove it during the first autopsy, so that she could remove the mandible and visually inspect the interior, where she found a dried-mud/dirt residue into which was adhered one of Caylee's little teeth, IIRC.

 

[The World According]

Yes, I also remember something mentioned...went to search can't find it..

It was pointed out at the time that Dr G already had a TV show..she was already known...and her response to news media questions about this case have always been "No comment"

Unlike the Defense team and their experts who have gone on local and National TV shows to speak of the case..

Here you go friend, it was one of these where they were discussing the autopsy, very likely this emergency hearing on 12-12-11[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS-Gmlcd4RY[/ame]

Linda Kenney Baden argued that Kathy Reichs was flying in, Warner Spitz was coming also to observe the autoposy. IIRC the state said NO you may not, for various reasons, least of which is not the fact that we have a child's remains that have not been identified. Jeff Ashton explained that even if the baby had been identified, the defense still had no right to view the autoposy.

Then the defense argued oh isn't that rich, the state is arguing dignity and privacy of the dead person...when their own ME has a show that appears to have folks dead bodies on display with all kind of things being done in the course of an autopsy....certainly there is no privacy for those folks. It was something to that effect, I am paraphrasing from memory, trying to listen to the hearing now.
http://www.wftv.com/video/18265423/index.html
hearing-concerning-the-autopsy-photos
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMADmtgS8Co[/ame]

http://itsamysterytome.wordpress.co...ng-the-autopsy-photos-of-her-daughter-caylee/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,469545,00.html

later they argue about it again
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae5J_ObjkTw[/ame]

 

[The World According]

It could be something they said to reporters on the courthouse steps and that is why I am not hearing the exact line in the hearing.

It could be in this long hearing too. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6044761&postcount=1196"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2011.01.06 Baez Slapped with Formal Sanction[/ame]

 

[sleutherontheside]

Bump in light on recent Werner Spitz updates.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but exactly what difference does it make which direction the body was laying with all that duct tape and dead baby laying around to rot in the first place? I may be missing something there, but I don't see what difference it makes in the least.

ETA: I also believe that had Dr G opened the skull they would have been crying about the fact that she disturbed the roots.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Werner Spitz as displayed by the above media coverage is no more special than AL. He employs a standard MO for autopsies as well.

I particularly enjoy Daniel Spitz commenting on "taking additional" actions that exceed standard protocol (paraphrased).

 

[jen&jonhart]

Ok am I wrong or is this not the Dr. that was on Geraldo's show the other night?I caught a little of it before I had to turn. Is a witness allowed to talk about the case before they testify?

 

[mikeysmommom]

Whatever position Caylee's skull was in when LE arrived on the scene, after all the indignities it had suffered--due to her mother's 31 days of lies, due to the elements, and to the scavengers--her little skull still had three pieces of duct tape wrapped around it.

Three pieces of duct tape long enough to hold her hair and her mandible to her skull, no matter how the elements and the scavengers tugged and pulled at her.

It matters little which position Caylee's skull would be found in after enduring all that. The central and enduring fact remains that it was found with those three pieces of Henkel duct tape wrapped so very very tightly around it.

ETA: And no doubt the second autopsy did not find the three layers of Henkel duct tape adhered around the skull such that it held the mandible in place--the M.E. had to remove it during the first autopsy, so that she could remove the mandible and visually inspect the interior, where she found a dried-mud/dirt residue into which was adhered one of Caylee's little teeth, IIRC.

ITA! Thank you.

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/28239316/detail.html

Wasn't Baez there even before Caylee's body was found? What kind of involvement does a medical examiner have in a missing child case?

"I went there and did an autopsy, a second autopsy," Spitz said.

He said he has been involved in the case for a relatively long time -- before defense attorney Jose Baez started representing Anthony.

While prosecutors claim Anthony suffocated the child, Spitz said the cause of death is still undetermined.

That's what the prosecutor's witness said as well, that the COD is undetermined. She determined the manner of death as homicide.

 

[katydid23]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/28239316/detail.html

Wasn't Baez there even before Caylee's body was found? What kind of involvement does a medical examiner have in a missing child case?



That's what the prosecutor's witness said as well, that the COD is undetermined. She determined the manner of death as homicide.

Baez was there the first day Casey was in jail. She heard about him during intake, and she had an inmate call him, and he showed up the very next day.

So Spitz has his cases mixed up. imo