2011.06.13 Sidebar (Trial Day Seventeen)

[Celt1997]

No,actually they don't . There are many convictions with decomposed bodies and even when NO BODY is found. They don't have to have show COD .
After Caylee was dead ,during those 31 days ,ICA was saying Caylee was having a great time with the nanny.They were at every fun spot in FL.
It wsn't until the 31st day she came up with the Nanny took her. The duct tape was already on Caylee at that point.

We are 100% certain ICA hadn't made the Nanny story up prior to day 31, and had kept it in her back pocket, waiting for the day people finally found out Caylee was gone? Yes, I believe the duct tape was already Caylee at that point, but it doesn't mean the whole story hadn't been planned.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I am still not convinced either that the duct tape came BEFORE Caylee's death...in fact, I wrote this earlier in the week and am just putting the theory out there again...
Has anyone else considered that maybe Casey's "sickness" was real---because she realized after hearing the testimony that the child who she had accidentally drugged and thought she had killed had actually STILL BEEN ALIVE when she wrapped that duct tape around her little head?? and ... Just think, if it were an accident (meaning she meant to knock her out with chlorAform, not kill her) and that when she could not wake her, mistakenly thought she was dead, and then in part of her hurried frantic attempt at covering up her crime, actually did kill her--and imagine all this time she thought she was dead BEFORE the tape and only learned yesterday, that she actually was not. Now wouldn't that be a serious Mind**** for Casey?

ICA was fine the next day if it was a serious Mind**** for her she recovered quickly.................just saying:innocent:

 

[MissJames]

Believe me, I held on to that theory for quite some time until I realized that Casey did not just place a single piece of duct tape across her daughters face and mouth BUT, that she wound that roll of tape around her daughters little face and head. The tape across her hair eliminated all thoughts that she had ever intended to place it temporarily...such as she had attempted an induced chloroform nap while she was out having her fun times.

It was 3 separate ,long strips,but I don't believe she wound it around 3 times. There was separation in the back. Still does it for me,but just wanted to clarify.

 

[stilettos]

IMO, the air samples prove that poor little Caylee was decomposing in the trunk of KC's car, not that she used chloroform to murder her.

I believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee was deceased and in the trunk of the Pontiac Sunfire for an undetermined period of time post-mortem.

I don't believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that KC murdered Caylee with chloroform, or even with duct tape, for that matter.

This has been a very tough trial for me to watch. I have cried, I have been angry, I have been nauseated.

Over these past 3 weeks, I have listened, I have watched, I have pondered.

At this point in the trial, the only I'm convinced of is that KC is a liar and that she covered up the death of her daughter.

Is there any other reasonable and logical reason besides murder for her to drive around with her daughter's dead body in her trunk, then for her to double bag it and put it in a laundry bag, no less to add some duct tape into the mix, and then dump the body of her baby girl like nothing more that refuse? IMO, no other logical conclusion than murder 1.

Then you have the lying for three years about what happened to her....Zanny the Nanny, letting people and LE search for Caylee so long...nope. Murder one!

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

Please, excuse the clip - done for space.

IIRC, Rickenbach also said he was surprised to find chloroform at all. I think he said he had never found it on a carpet sample or anything but liquid before. If I am remembering that correctly, I think that is a substantial point for SA. mOO

They were talking about 2 totally different things 1)was speaking of the air samples and the 2) was speaking of the amount found in the carpet....two totally different things but JB is hoping the jury don't pick up on that.

 

[NocturnalLady]

I thought the only evidence of that fight was LA's statement to JG? The neighbor testified to hearing fights between CA and ICA were prior to Caylee's disapearance. We do know that on the stand CA stated that she had gone to BofA and was looking for ICA to discuss this with her in person.........

I am not sure why the SA hasn't pursued this argument between CA and ICA, but I imagine they have their reasons.

The SA don't ask because they really can't ask. All they have is a hearsay statement from LA. And they know that is they ask the only witnesses, CA and GA, then all they will get are lies saying it never happened. So trying to prove motive there is not going to help the SA's case in anyway.

Throughout this whole case the SA have been treating both of the A's very lightly and kindly (given how obstructive and combative they have both been). Why? A few reasons:
1. The SA doesn't want to come off as being mean to grieving grandparents. 2. The SA knew in general what the DT's theory was going to be. They knew the A's were now more on the side of the SA and justice for Caylee than they have ever been before. I'm sure they felt like now was their chance to finally get some co-operation from these people.
3. (And this is the biggest reason I think). The SA would be opening a Pandora's Box by going down that rabbit hole! We on WS have seen the lies told by all of the Anthony family unfold and pile up layer upon layer over a period of three years and it is still hard for us to process. Just imagine a juror who (supposedly) is a blank slate to this case. If the SA starts down the tangled path of lies told by GA and CA all they will do is confuse the jury, muddy up the case, discredit the Anthony's as witnesses and assure that the A's will turn right back into hostile witnesses. Remember that the A's are vital firsthand witnesses to many of the facts in this case. If the SA brings out how many lies they have told (CA why did you say you had given us the wrong hairbrush when we were trying to get hairs for dna to identify Caylee? GA why does your description of the morning you last saw Caylee change every time you tell it? etc etc...) then all that will happen is that the jury will come to not believe ANYTHING the A's have testified to.

So, getting back around to why the SA doesn't ask about the fight between CA and ICA... they don't because they know all they will hear is a denial, a lie. So, while we know a whole lot more than the jury in terms of motive in this case, the SA is just keeping it simple and sticking only to what they need to show to prove their case.

As an aside - if Baez has any brains at all, when the defense presents it's case he will attempt to impeach the Anthony's with every lie they have ever told. There are plenty on record. He needs to totally discredit them (and NOT by asking them how much money they are making off the case for pete's sake!). He needs to prove that they lie just as much as Casey does. I'm just not sure how much of that he can get in to his case - probably only what he can prove they have testified to in this case that directly contradicts what they have testified to before. That's another reason the SA doesn't bring this stuff up, so Baez can't use it!

 

[MissJames]

We are 100% certain ICA hadn't made the Nanny story up prior to day 31, and had kept it in her back pocket, waiting for the day people finally found out Caylee was gone? Yes, I believe the duct tape was already Caylee at that point, but it doesn't mean the whole story hadn't been planned.

We could come up with" what if's" all day long.I'm just going with what we know.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I must have missed this.....did this happen during trial testimony? what type of signals??

I hope this helps ...

correct link:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6662194&postcount=51"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - What is Cindy A doing while trial watching?[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6663747&postcount=125"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - What is Cindy A doing while trial watching?[/ame]

 

[Velouria]

IMO, the air samples prove that poor little Caylee was decomposing in the trunk of KC's car, not that she used chloroform to murder her.

I believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee was deceased and in the trunk of the Pontiac Sunfire for an undetermined period of time post-mortem.

I don't believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that KC murdered Caylee with chloroform, or even with duct tape, for that matter.

This has been a very tough trial for me to watch. I have cried, I have been angry, I have been nauseated.

Over these past 3 weeks, I have listened, I have watched, I have pondered.

At this point in the trial, the only I'm convinced of is that KC is a liar and that she covered up the death of her daughter.

I appreciate your honesty, sorrell skye, and I understand your pain, however...

Just remember, 1) it ain't over 'til it's over, and 2) ISP now sits on Death Row, and there was even less forensic evidence used to convict him.

Stay strong.

 

[Celt1997]

It was 3 separate ,long strips,but I don't believe she wound it around 3 times. There was separation in the back. Still does it for me,but just wanted to clarify.

And, if it was the murder weapon, would be more likely something someone would do in a rage. Ripping 1 long piece frantically, then the next, and the next, each with more rage than the one before it. Graphic, certainly, but possibly more in line with someone who was "losing it" at that moment, than wrapping it around and around.

 

[NocturnalLady]

DUCT TAPE AFTER DEATH? FLORIDA SUPREME COURT SAYS NOT REASONABLE


Thread: Implications of Huck Case Ruling RE: duct tape on nose and mouth
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:19 PM
Bobbisangel Bobbisangel is offline
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Implications of Huck Case Ruling RE: duct tape on nose and mouth
I found this on another site...it is great!


Fl. appeals court shoots down most of defense arguments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We found a case that is on point in the Florida criminal cases, that involves a ME not being able to say for certain how the victim died, and also involves duct tape.

Perry v. State, 801 So. 2d 78, 84 (Fla.
2001); State v. Law, 559 So. 2d 187, 189 (Fla. 1989). "
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA
FIFTH DISTRICT
JULY TERM 2004
BRENT ROBERT HUCK,
Appellant,
v.
CASE NO. 5D03-1906

STATE OF FLORIDA,
Appellee.
___________________________________/
Opinion filed July 16, 2004
Appeal from the Circuit Court
for Brevard County,
David Dugan, Judge.
Gregory W. Eisenmenger and Robert R. Berry of
Eisenmenger, Berry & Peters, Melbourne, for
Appellant.
Charles J. Crist, Jr., Attorney General, Tallahassee,
and Kellie A. Nielan, Assistant Attorney General,
Daytona Beach, for Appellee.
MONACO, J.
Brent Robert Huck appeals his convictions for the kidnapping and felony murder of his
former girlfriend, Misty Morse.

www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts
__________________

"At trial the medical examiner testified that because of the condition of the body, he was not "one hundred percent" certain of the cause of death. In his opinion, however, the victim
died "within a reasonable degree of probability" from asphyxia either by the tape on her nose and mouth or from drowning. " Interesting that they did not need to prove exactly, or be married to one particular cause of death.

. "The State is not required to rebut conclusively every possible variation of events that could be inferred from the
evidence. Rather, it is the State's obligation to introduce competent substantial evidence that is inconsistent with the defendant's theory of events". Perry v. State, 801 So. 2d 78, 84 (Fla.
2001); State v. Law, 559 So. 2d 187, 189 (Fla. 1989). "
Someone better send this to the defense.

Also, from Huck's attempt to appeal, and say the duct tape did not prove anything - the FL Supreme Court had this to say:
"More importantly, the assertion that Mr. Huck taped the victim's eyes and mouth shut after she died is not particularly reasonable. The only logical reason to tape her eyes and mouth shut would have been to prevent her from seeing, talking, screaming for help, or breathing while she was alive. There is no logical or reasonable purpose for taping a person's eyes and mouth shut after she is dead."
__________________
"The only logical reason to tape her eyes and mouth shut would have been to prevent her from seeing, talking, screaming for help, or breathing while she was alive." FL appeals court
Last edited by BondJamesBond; 05-18-2010 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Removed poster info & clarified thread title
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Thanks for posting this! And holy cow that is a creepy Casey photo in you sig.!

 

[susan1122]

Wasn't the SA's witness list near 300 people? What about the Home Depot video? My assumption is that the state is able to close early due to ICA's new lie.

What is her new lie? Sorry, I may have missed it.

 

[egnarts]

IMO The defense is now FORCED to admit Caylee was in that car. They are forced now to claim George hid it there, unbeknownst to Casey, after finding a drowned Caylee, not attempting CPR, not calling 911 and after he agreed to help her hide the body. Good luck with that Jose!

So...George duct taped and hid the body in Casey's trunk...she didn't know and somehow Roy Kronk got a hold of it......probably from the PI's working for the Anthony's. How else would Roy have gotten a key to Casey's trunk?

To the points above, the DT so far 'has':
1) GA had an extra set of keys (car was in parental units name - no biggie)
2) ICA telling AH(?) the car had a foul odor after 'her dad' ran over that darn squirrel (proven LIAR spinning a yarnstory)
3) ICA telling TL 'her dad' would take care of the car left @ Amscot on 6/27 (see LIAR comment above)

DT has a long way to go to prove their story. Maybe they also have imaginary friends to testify? I honestly can't envision how DT intends to pull anything off without putting ICA on the stand. And, if ICA is put on the stand, JB will be in another cellblock, right along with her. The ultimate 'throwing under the bus'. imho

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

It was 3 separate ,long strips,but I don't believe she wound it around 3 times. There was separation in the back. Still does it for me,but just wanted to clarify.

Curious, did they say if the ends of the tape had a smooth cut or jagged one? Remember when CA was on the stand and was asked what she saw in the photo of ICA's car...the last thing she said was "and I see one of my steak knives"...but, they didn't allow that in.

 

[beach]

The SA needs to decide, was it chloroform, or was it the tape? I'm hoping tomorrow is the final piece of the puzzle, but, right now, I just can't see how people can say the duct tape is issue is so black and white.

<snipped>

No,actually they don't . There are many convictions with decomposed bodies and even when NO BODY is found. They don't have to have show COD .
After Caylee was dead ,during those 31 days ,ICA was saying Caylee was having a great time with the nanny.They were at every fun spot in FL.
It wsn't until the 31st day she came up with the Nanny took her. The duct tape was already on Caylee at that point.

ITA!


What difference does it make? Chloroform or duct tape? Why would a 2 1/2 yr. old be in the trunk of her mother's car where there is a mind-boggling amount of evidence of chloroform registering? 84 (?) computer searches for chloroform? Why would a 2 1/2 yr. old have duct tape placed over her airways? Both are deadly. Chloroformed OR duct tape. The State is under no obligation to "choose one" over the other. I think it is wise that they leave it up to the jury to decide which one fits their own theory. Just as is evident here, people disagree. Bottom line: both are deadly and neither one should be anywhere near a 2 1/2 yr. old toddler's face.

 

[Celt1997]

We could come up with" what if's" all day long.I'm just going with what we know.

I agree with you, and that's what is frustrating about this. Hoping, against hope, that the what "ifs" aren't great enough to take away Murder 1.

As to going with what we know, some people speak as if it is 100% known that the duct tape was the murder weapon, but, the truth is, we don't know.

 

[smart blonde]

before all the searches on the computer ...I'll never think someone innocently looks up chloroform EIGHTY-FOUR (84 !!!!!) times.

But before that nugget came out in court....I believed that what went down was Casey was neglecting Caylee while on the computer. Caylee drowned and it was a LONG time later when she found her - so the body would have been bloated and obviously in the water for an hour or more. That made it impossible for her to confess to the accident without admitting to her neglect. She then went in to kidnap mode - put the tape on Caylee and fled the scene with her. She fully expected the body to be found but the duct tape would show someone kidnapped her (its so typical... from every movie!) Then she started to have fun....and didn't have even deal with the aftermath at all by staying away.

I don't know. It takes a certain kind of evil to go rent videos at Blockbuster with your unsuspecting boyfriend, just hours after your child dies- whether it was an accident, or not.

Actually, I think if your child died unexpectedly (as with an accidental drowning), it would be even harder to carry on as if nothing happened.

Ironically, if Caylee's death really had been unexpected, an accident, I believe Casey would have been devastated.

But, since Casey was the one who made the decision, Casey was the one in control. I believe 100% that Casey killed Caylee because she wanted to.

 

[NocturnalLady]

No,actually they don't . There are many convictions with decomposed bodies and even when NO BODY is found. They don't have to have show COD .
After Caylee was dead ,during those 31 days ,ICA was saying Caylee was having a great time with the nanny.They were at every fun spot in FL.
It wsn't until the 31st day she came up with the Nanny took her. The duct tape was already on Caylee at that point.

I think the SA is saying it was chloroform AND duct tape. They are implying that Casey knocked Caylee out with chloroform and then duct taped her causing her death.

 

[MissJames]

Curious, did they say if the ends of the tape had a smooth cut or jagged one? Remember when CA was on the stand and was asked what she saw in the photo of ICA's car...the last thing she said was "and I see one of my steak knives"...but, they didn't allow that in.

There is a thread on the duct tape.I don't believe it was cut with scissors,but you will find what other WS's were able to do remarkable.

 

[pcrum12]

The amount of duct tape used is what justified in my mind that this was a clear indication of homicide.

If ICA was devastated about the drowning and only put duct tape on Caylee to make it appear like it was a kidnapping, then why would ICA feel the need to use more than one piece of tape? Knowing the dynamics of the family, especially the relationship between CA and ICA, I could have possibly been swayed into envisioning a distraught ICA holding Caylee in her arms, sobbing uncontrollably as she softly places ONE piece of tape across Caylee's mouth. (of course I don't buy this, I'm just saying)

However, the fact that several pieces of duct tape was used and wrapped with considerable amount of force, completely around Caylee's head is confimation to me that this was a homicide. It shows that ICA was in a rage when she put the duct tape on Caylee. ICA had had enough and she snapped. Poor little Caylee didn't stand a chance.

It was n't wrapping around her head per witness testimony.