4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #83

[Sozo]

I'm not sure how much extra "sleuthing" we can do of family members beyond MSM claims. But I would not assume having training in counseling necessarily gives a person the ability to see the dynamics in her own family from an objective viewpoint, especially if the training was very recent. Recent training also means the person must practice under supervision. IMO the supervision requirement could explain the job loss that appeared unfair on the surface (unfair to me anyway.)

The whole Dateline story about the sister being suspicious seems to come from unnamed sources so I'm a bit skeptical. The accounts include the information that the sister expressed her opinion to her family "loudly." Not sure what to make of that for lots of reasons (including in terms of family dynamics.) And the accounts seem to say her suspicions were based on the kind of car he drove and his wearing gloves at the house. (While the gloves are definitely odd, my first thought wouldn't be a person wearing gloves at a family home killed someone the month before.) Further, stories report the search of the car that the sister instigated found nothing. No surprise IMO-- what expertise does a counselor have to find that sort of evidence? And the dad had ridden across the country in the car. If the car had lots of visible blood inside it, he'd have to have been in a lot of denial not to see that. And LE didn't seem to see blood at the traffic stops either.

Many stories say nothing was found because police observed BK using bleach to clean his car.
Example of bleach claim Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

Besides being a possible violation of the gag order, I can't imagine LE really said something so silly. How does someone "observe" the use of bleach while doing covert surveillance? Was BK observed walking out of the house carrying a big bottle clearly labeled "bleach?" If he was, are we sure it was bleach in the bottle? Or was the covert observer so close he/she smelled bleach? And both watched and smelled the use of bleach to try to destroy evidence? Kind of doubt that.

Can someone point me to evidence we have that BK used bleach? I know some talking heads (usually former FBI agents) have opined he might have and maybe he did, but do we know that he did? I can't find anything except talking heads saying he could have and anonymous LE bleach claims used as a reason the sister's search was fruitless.

And as the story goes he bleached his car in the middle of the night in the darkness to not to draw attention to his activity. In the dark how could they see it was bleach?

 

[Balthazar]

A judge rules they had to stop selling the fake Vans, but did ALL the merchandise get removed from every store? What are the chances that all stores were in compliance?

Judge bars Walmart from selling shoes Vans alleges are knockoffs

The shoe brand accused the retailer of flooding the market with "cheap, low-quality, and confusingly similar shoes."

www.retaildive.com

 

[NCWatcher]

And as the story goes he bleached his car in the middle of the night in the darkness to not to draw attention to his activity. In the dark how could they see it was bleach?

Good point!

 

[10ofRods]

And as the story goes he bleached his car in the middle of the night in the darkness to not to draw attention to his activity. In the dark how could they see it was bleach?

Who is the "they"? If we're talking about what the sister allegedly said, I would assume they saw a bleach bottle and/or smelled it.

OTOH, perhaps he screwed up his carpet/upholstery in the car...with bleach.

At any rate, if the family bleach from the laundry was used, I suspect more than one family member might have noticed.

On the topic of "Who would suspect their own *brother*???" Well, look up the Unabomber.

And some of us have experience with either our own families and criminality, or with others very well known to us who have had criminal siblings (or parents or children, etc). My grandfather went to reform school (youth prison) for something (that no one can talk about as they are all dead and no one talked about it until after grandpa was dead). Then he got out, moved back home, where he did something that caused his own mother to try and kill him (she was unsuccessful, but in fear of her life). That grandpa had 7 kids, one of whom is suspected by the other 6 as being a potential murderer. Long story (this would be my aunt). And that's just my own family. There are also two suicides (self-murder) on the other side of my family. Everyone suspected all of these people to be at risk/different but no one knew what to do. The way they handled these situations was not optimal, IMO.

I have students every semester who are dealing with a criminal family member, although I will say that during COVID the number of household members who were engaged in criminal activity dropped (booted from the family home for the duration, for what the families felt were good reasons). So yes, that means these people - undesirable even to their FOO - are out there somewhere, somewhere else (mostly homeless or "couch-surfing" is my guess).

Siblings steal from siblings; use the money for drugs. Siblings steal ID's from siblings, use the ID"s to get rental cars or drugs. I of course live and teach in a vast metropolis and where I work, the students mostly still live at home - lots of stories.

My point is that siblings often know siblings very well - and in a different way than the rest of us know the same people.

IMO.

 

[NCWatcher]

Who is the "they"? If we're talking about what the sister allegedly said, I would assume they saw a bleach bottle and/or smelled it.

OTOH, perhaps he screwed up his carpet/upholstery in the car...with bleach.

At any rate, if the family bleach from the laundry was used, I suspect more than one family member might have noticed.

On the topic of "Who would suspect their own *brother*???" Well, look up the Unabomber.

And some of us have experience with either our own families and criminality, or with others very well known to us who have had criminal siblings (or parents or children, etc). My grandfather went to reform school (youth prison) for something (that no one can talk about as they are all dead and no one talked about it until after grandpa was dead). Then he got out, moved back home, where he did something that caused his own mother to try and kill him (she was unsuccessful, but in fear of her life). That grandpa had 7 kids, one of whom is suspected by the other 6 as being a potential murderer. Long story (this would be my aunt). And that's just my own family. There are also two suicides (self-murder) on the other side of my family. Everyone suspected all of these people to be at risk/different but no one knew what to do. The way they handled these situations was not optimal, IMO.

I have students every semester who are dealing with a criminal family member, although I will say that during COVID the number of household members who were engaged in criminal activity dropped (booted from the family home for the duration, for what the families felt were good reasons). So yes, that means these people - undesirable even to their FOO - are out there somewhere, somewhere else (mostly homeless or "couch-surfing" is my guess).

Siblings steal from siblings; use the money for drugs. Siblings steal ID's from siblings, use the ID"s to get rental cars or drugs. I of course live and teach in a vast metropolis and where I work, the students mostly still live at home - lots of stories.

My point is that siblings often know siblings very well - and in a different way than the rest of us know the same people.

IMO.

BBM

The "they" who spoke about bleach having been used according to multiple stories in the MSM are unnamed LE who supposedly said BK was "observed" using bleach to clean his car. Here's one example of the bleach claim but there are others. Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

The sister never mentioned bleach so far as I can tell. She never said she smelled bleach or said she saw bleach. But various stories have claimed that's why the sister didn't find anything in the car when she supposedly looked. That's not believable IMO for lots of reasons. And I can find no credible source for the story that BK was observed using bleach. Many have said he might have but there's no on-the-record source I know of that says he did.
JMO

 

[Chloegirl]

It's not the website, per se. But there are a several posters who aren't on-board the impeccable train for a variety of reasons. There are others who believe it's sealed tight and a sure thing. Just depends on which posts you're reading (and sometimes, on what day). JMO.

Thank you. I value all opinions (even when I disagree with them). Plus things shift, and it is good to look through the prisim from lots of angles. I need to hear things I agree and disagree with at times.

 

[Balthazar]

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger cleaned car, was seen wearing surgical gloves, source says

In one instance prior to Kohberger's arrest, authorities observed him leaving his family home around 4 a.m. and putting trash bags in the neighbors' garbage bins, according to the source.

6abc.com

"Kohberger, who was pursuing a PhD in criminal justice at Washington State University at the time of the killings, "cleaned his car, inside and outside, not missing an inch," according to the law enforcement source."

No bleach mentioned. Just a thorough cleaning.

 

[10ofRods]

BBM

The "they" who spoke about bleach having been used according to multiple stories in the MSM are unnamed LE who supposedly said BK was "observed" using bleach to clean his car. Here's one example of the bleach claim but there are others. Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

The sister never mentioned bleach so far as I can tell. She never said she smelled bleach or said she saw bleach. But various stories have claimed that's why the sister didn't find anything in the car when she supposedly looked. That's not believable IMO for lots of reasons. And I can find no credible source for the story that BK was observed using bleach. Many have said he might have but there's no on-the-record source I know of that says he did.
JMO

That article mainly talks about the sister, though.

The incident where LE said he had cleaned his car was in Pullman, I think. The article is vague about that. It's not clear whether the sister says LE told her that (possible). It's also not clear what LE was referencing (which makes me wonder if the bleaching took place in Pullman - Pullman police are not under a gag order). Moscow LE has said virtually nothing about what they know of Kohberger.

Article after article just says "police said" but with no named policeman and no mention of which police. Kind of strange. This somewhat better written article from ABC says that the bleach observation (by police) took place in the 4 days right before the arrest (so, that would be in PA):

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger cleaned car, was seen wearing surgical gloves, source says

In one instance prior to Kohberger's arrest, authorities observed him leaving his family home around 4 a.m. and putting trash bags in the neighbors' garbage bins, according to the source.

abc7chicago.com

If he was using bleach in PA, it's possible a family member noticed.

Regardless of whether it's the sister(s), the family, the neighbors or LE - how did anyone know it was bleach? (As opposed to some other solution?) I am assuming that said persons must have smelled it or seen a bleach bottle. It's too bad that none of the articles I can find mention which PD it was (and the ABC article doesn't mention a source - so it's not clear which "LE" they are really speaking about).

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger cleaned car, was seen wearing surgical gloves, source says

In one instance prior to Kohberger's arrest, authorities observed him leaving his family home around 4 a.m. and putting trash bags in the neighbors' garbage bins, according to the source.

6abc.com

"Kohberger, who was pursuing a PhD in criminal justice at Washington State University at the time of the killings, "cleaned his car, inside and outside, not missing an inch," according to the law enforcement source."

No bleach mentioned. Just a thorough cleaning.

Right??

Many of the articles say this. And, well, I don't see any stream of articles mentioning that he did this cleaning in WA. I thought we read, early on (I'd have to go back through the Media thread, but way too tired to do that), that he cleaned his car in WA, but I"m certain there's never been a news article detailing exactly what he did. I remember a reporter going to a local car wash not too long after the arrest and the operator didn't remember BK. I remember people posting about whether it's possible to use a hose at the Steptoe Apts (apparently yes but no word on anyone remembering BK cleaning there that I know of).

I am going to discount the bleach story until the trial, although I think it's interesting that the sister apparently expressed real concern about whether her brother was the killer (and surely, she must have based that on something). It's too bad that several articles are conflating all these PA events into a stew that removes any kind of ability to analyze what was going on.

The most oft-quoted "LE statement" is that he "cleaned his car, inside and out, not missing an inch." (This statement mentions no bleach, although bleach is sometimes added somewhere else in the article. The bleach statement didn't get into my consciousness until the Dateline special. However, Dateline is quite obscure about where it heard that. I had assumed the sister - since I doubt that plainsclothes LE were watching this all go down up close, close enough to see every inch of the car - or smell the bleach.

I can see LE having enough surveillance to watch him clean the car - but to know what ingredients he actually used, if before arrest, I'm skeptical. Unless, of course, it came from a family member.

IMO.

 

[NCWatcher]

That article mainly talks about the sister, though.

The incident where LE said he had cleaned his car was in Pullman, I think. The article is vague about that. It's not clear whether the sister says LE told her that (possible). It's also not clear what LE was referencing (which makes me wonder if the bleaching took place in Pullman - Pullman police are not under a gag order). Moscow LE has said virtually nothing about what they know of Kohberger.

Article after article just says "police said" but with no named policeman and no mention of which police. Kind of strange. This somewhat better written article from ABC says that the bleach observation (by police) took place in the 4 days right before the arrest (so, that would be in PA):

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger cleaned car, was seen wearing surgical gloves, source says

In one instance prior to Kohberger's arrest, authorities observed him leaving his family home around 4 a.m. and putting trash bags in the neighbors' garbage bins, according to the source.

abc7chicago.com

If he was using bleach in PA, it's possible a family member noticed.

Regardless of whether it's the sister(s), the family, the neighbors or LE - how did anyone know it was bleach? (As opposed to some other solution?) I am assuming that said persons must have smelled it or seen a bleach bottle. It's too bad that none of the articles I can find mention which PD it was (and the ABC article doesn't mention a source - so it's not clear which "LE" they are really speaking about).

IMO.

BBM

I do see that the anonymous source in the above article says he/she was briefed about what investigators observed in PA during those four days. But nowhere in that article is the word "bleach" ever used. So I'm not sure how we can possibly conclude anyone ever saw or smelled bleach.

Articles about the sister seem (to me) to mention the use of bleach as the reason she didn't find any "evidence" in the car. (As if she was trained to find trace evidence!) At any rate, I think it's unfortunate the bleach story seems accepted as fact when there's no real source ever cited for the story. If the sister had said she smelled bleach, why not say that? We know she was loud with her family, we know her dad disagreed with her, we know she was concerned about the kind of car BK drove, we know she was concerned about the gloves...if she smelled bleach, why not say so? My conclusion is she didn't smell it. Probably no one did.
JMO

 

[jjleroche]

His oldest sister is a family therapist, licensed in the state of New Jersey. She would have the qualifications to see signs from a psychological angle.

And...

1. Her brother had been living only a few miles from the scene of the murders,
2. Her brother owned and drove a white 2012-2015-ish Hyundai Elantra,
3. Her brother had been cleaning the car's interior (with bleach) for the several weeks since returning to the family home for the Christmas break

She may also have been aware of...

1. Her brother fossicking around in the neighbour's garbage
2. Her brother separating various garbage items into ziplock bags

 

[NCWatcher]

And...

1. Her brother had been living only a few miles from the scene of the murders,
2. Her brother owned and drove a white 2012-2015-ish Hyundai Elantra,
3. Her brother had been cleaning the car's interior (with bleach) for the several weeks since returning to the family home for the Christmas break

She may also have been aware of...

1. Her brother fossicking around in the neighbour's garbage
2. Her brother separating various garbage items into ziplock bags

Do you have a citation documenting "Her brother had been cleaning the car's interior (with bleach) for the several weeks since returning to the family home for the Christmas break." I can't find an on-the-record source documenting he cleaned the car even once with bleach, much less that he cleaned it that way for "several weeks."
JMO

 

[Ursamajr]

Seeing all the back and forth about the Elantra...
I keep thinking about the footage of YingYing Zhang getting into a nondescript black Saturn Astra. The license plates weren't visible but the front tire rim had a dent. That little blurry dent led them right to Brent Christensen, her killer.

Police determined a defect on a hubcap of Brendt Christensen’s car matched that of the vehicle Zhang entered the day she vanished. Christensen agreed to be interviewed by the FBI and campus police.

That white Elantra seems to have been caught on camera a handful of times the night of the Moscow murders. What are the chances...

 

[Ksfarmer8]

Do you have a citation documenting "Her brother had been cleaning the car's interior (with bleach) for the several weeks since returning to the family home for the Christmas break." I can't find an on-the-record source documenting he cleaned the car even once with bleach, much less that he cleaned it that way for "several weeks."
JMO

The only place I remember bleach being mentioned within MSM in cleaning the car was in the "Independent" article about halfway down and it says that police said...... rather an off hand comment.

Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

Sources told NBC’s Dateline that the accused killer’s family searched his white Hyundai Elantra for possible evidence of the Idaho college murders

www.independent.co.uk

 

[schooling]

I'm not sure how much extra "sleuthing" we can do of family members beyond MSM claims. But I would not assume having training in counseling necessarily gives a person the ability to see the dynamics in her own family from an objective viewpoint, especially if the training was very recent. Recent training also means the person must practice under supervision. IMO the supervision requirement could explain the job loss that appeared unfair on the surface (unfair to me anyway.)

The whole Dateline story about the sister being suspicious seems to come from unnamed sources so I'm a bit skeptical. The accounts include the information that the sister expressed her opinion to her family "loudly." Not sure what to make of that for lots of reasons (including in terms of family dynamics.) And the accounts seem to say her suspicions were based on the kind of car he drove and his wearing gloves at the house. (While the gloves are definitely odd, my first thought wouldn't be a person wearing gloves at a family home killed someone the month before.) Further, stories report the search of the car that the sister instigated found nothing. No surprise IMO-- what expertise does a counselor have to find that sort of evidence? And the dad had ridden across the country in the car. If the car had lots of visible blood inside it, he'd have to have been in a lot of denial not to see that. And LE didn't seem to see blood at the traffic stops either.

Many stories say nothing was found because police observed BK using bleach to clean his car.
Example of bleach claim Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

Besides being a possible violation of the gag order, I can't imagine LE really said something so silly. How does someone "observe" the use of bleach while doing covert surveillance? Was BK observed walking out of the house carrying a big bottle clearly labeled "bleach?" If he was, are we sure it was bleach in the bottle? Or was the covert observer so close he/she smelled bleach? And both watched and smelled the use of bleach to try to destroy evidence? Kind of doubt that.

Can someone point me to evidence we have that BK used bleach? I know some talking heads (usually former FBI agents) have opined he might have and maybe he did, but do we know that he did? I can't find anything except talking heads saying he could have and anonymous LE bleach claims used as a reason the sister's search was fruitless.
JMO

Found nothing perceptible to the eye.

The FBI likely broke that car down into a million and one pieces. Dismantled and tested every square inch.

I think the seizure of the vacuum likely used to clean his car supports the stories that the FEDS observed him cleaning it. I don't remember seeing in any of the reports that bleach was used. I don't recall any cleaning agents or methods being identified.

 

[schooling]

Seeing all the back and forth about the Elantra...
I keep thinking about the footage of YingYing Zhang getting into a nondescript black Saturn Astra. The license plates weren't visible but the front tire rim had a dent. That little blurry dent led them right to Brent Christensen, her killer.

Police determined a defect on a hubcap of Brendt Christensen’s car matched that of the vehicle Zhang entered the day she vanished. Christensen agreed to be interviewed by the FBI and campus police.

That white Elantra seems to have been caught on camera a handful of times the night of the Moscow murders. What are the chances...

And if you remember LE went out of their way to put BK in the grocery store parking lot the morning following the murders. IMO it's to explicitly link him to the car and the cellular evidence as theirs no speculation as to who's inside. It's broad daylight. Likely high resolution.

I think that they are going to be able to link the grocery store elantra 110% driven by BK to the crime scene adjacent pullman elantra much in the same way you just described. By identifying A small defect or mark barely perceptible on the Elantra suspect car night footage...juxtaposed with grocery store BK, where the same cell phone from the murder night said he would be, getting out of a white Elantra with the same defect.

IMO the grocery store footage is key to further validating the suspect elantra footage and explicitly linking it to BK.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

While it is probably correct that the defense will attempt to raise doubt on many aspects of her statement, the fact that a person with blood on their shoes did stand in the place that she said she saw a man is indisputable.

Did anyone say the defense wouldn't question her?

The post I was replying to said: "Without the print, the defense would have gone after her testimony and try to taint it by questioning how much alcohol she had consumed that night"

And I'm saying that the defense is still going to do that, regardless of the shoe print, IMO. I never insinuated nor said someone made the claim the defense wouldn't question her.

 

[Rumination1]

Does any one know or recall any part of Bf’s testimony , I just recall mention hers and DMs phones had done texts ? No doubt being young texting from room To room. That’s what my kids do

However ,my kids also come knock on my door if there’s strange noises in the night

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Does any one know or recall any part of Bf’s testimony , I just recall mention hers and DMs phones had done texts ? No doubt being young texting from room To room. That’s what my kids do

However ,my kids also come knock on my door if there’s strange noises in the night

Nothing about BF's experience/questioning/testimony has been released to the public, except that she saw Xana and Ethan at one of the parties earlier that evening. There were rumors in MSM, but nothing else that's officially been released, IIRC.

 

[Rumination1]

Quote:
recent refusal to be interviewed

BK refused to be interviewed? By who?
He should only talk to his attorneys.

I may be wrong but I thought he gave only a 5 min interview upon arrest . Then got a lawyer

Is that standard if one is innocent to refuse to answer any questions thereon upon attorney recommendation and presence

I’d have thought an attorney would say tell your side ( if he had said he was innocent and had an alibi)
Maybe im naive