Please apply your methodology of analysis of data and Occam's razor to the post below:
Sorry Voynich, (and pardon my bluntness), do it yourself. It will make for good practice.
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Please apply your methodology of analysis of data and Occam's razor to the post below:
There is so much to be alarmed about in JBR's toileting habits. I don't mean the bed-wetting since we all know this happens (although there is a query going on elsewhere about why Patsy didn't procure some of those 'alarmed' sheets that seem to 'cure' the problem within a few days).
Similarly, Patsy claimed to have told JBR that there were very few people who should touch her 'swim suit' area, a discussion which you'd presume would mark the onset of the age of modesty. Yet JBR would ask literally anybody to wipe her. She had been coached in dance steps and lengthy songs, to sashay on stage and wear formal clothing, to perform songs for her class-mates, to share her cup-cakes, to worry that Burke got less money than she got (according to Nedra) but reverted to infancy over her toileting. Some may say that this indicated a desperate attempt to hold onto her child-hood while it was being eroded by the pageants etc. Others will talk about dangerously blurred boundaries. Everyone has to admit, though, that this is a behavioural red flag.
The encopresis is another major red flag. One of the shrinks who came on the forums pretty much explained that the very least this showed was huge stress.
Add this to the view held by the experts appointed by LE and by various other commentators that the damage to JBR's vagine was unlikely to be self-inflicted, and you have to conclude that, taken holistically, the only reasonable conclusion is that JBR had been exposed to some sexuality other than her own.
Before I had children, I remember a comedian saying, "As the father of 3 girls, I underestimated the number of times I would have to say, 'don't put that in your vagina'"
I now have two little girls (3 and 7.5). I have one child who loves to stick things in her vagina. Suckers, fingers, etc. I don't know if it enough to actually cause damage to her hymen, but it is possible.
My other daughter has many of the same isses JB had, including bedwetting, not liking to bathe, and poor wiping skills. Coincidentally, she has also participated in pageants. The combination of these factors often makes her itchy "down there". I could see her itching herself vigorously enough to cause some damage.'' In addition, Patsy may have had to touch her to apply creme (like vagasil or similar product).
So to me, the hymen erosion does not offer evidence of IDI or RDI.
And for the record, if someone said one of my daughters were sexually abused, I would be extremely defensive also.
I don't often post on this thread, but feel this should be mentioned. (I'll preface this with the opinion that RDI)
I believe it likely that although JR was probably abusing JB in some ways, the erosion of the hymen could have come from self-play or consensual sexual exploration with other children. For instance, if JR refrained from penetration, but engaged in stroking, petting or other manual genital manipulation that gave his daughter sexual pleasure and awakened her sexuality for the first time, no matter how inappropriately, she might have tried to stimulate herself the same way or even further, i.e., insertion of finger or foreign objects, vigorously rubbing her genital area against something that would, over time, erode the hymen further. I imagine if JR routinely spread her legs wider and wider during molestation, this could also cause tiny tears in the membrane and eroded it.
Also, if Daddy was diddling her and she liked the sensations and attention, she could seek out Burke or others to play house or doctor, and engage him in much of the same play. But because he wouldn't be aware of the need to protect the hymen, he was rougher with his explorations, and the hymen receded further on the vaginal opening.
IOW, I believe it's likely that JR was the first, but not the only one, who explored JB sexually.
I'm posting this here where it seems to be appropriate - basically I think burke & his friends, possibly, was abusing her. The thread this comes from has a ridiculous fantasy of JonBenet enjoying being molested, et al....won't go into it more, so posting my post here instead:
First -ICK! Could have used at least a warning. Anyway - I get your point....not sure it adds up. As nasty as I find the Ramseys, not sure even they would pimp their daughter sexually. Although, as far as I'm concerned the nature of the beauty pageants come close.
I think that the clitoris might be formed enough to create sensation. Not sure of orgasm in the sense of a grown sexually mature woman, though.
I still have doubts about Burke. I can't help but feel he might have been the one sexually assaulting her. But, it may have been mutual in the sense that JonBenet went along with it. It's a taboo - but, I know of at least two siblings when I was young who 'experimented' with each other. Nothing overt, etc. - more like the playing 'doctor' thing - children are very curious. And I think Burke was coming to an age of being curious and he's got this sister...so - he explores this with her. I don't mean to offend or gross people out - but, it is a fact that many siblings have something like this happen. I lived for a time in a very bad neighborhood - that is where I learned of stuff between a brother & sister....gross & I won't go into it. there was a six year old (I was six to seven) who would steal playboys out of her step-fathers bathroom - she climbed up through the window to get these things. I still remember being traumatized from one particular image! I was almost 'raped' by a boy in this neighborhood a few years older - I write rape in quotes because I'm not sure what he'd be capable of....another gal when I was around nine was always trying to pressure me into taking baths or otherwise getting naked with her...and at the same time some boy my age too! This boy is the other sibling pair I know that some 'exploring' went on. I'm writing all this to back those who think 'no way' or it isn't possible - considering all we know of Burke - his whittling at wood with a knife, his yellling at people to get out of his room & having the door closed with JonBenet in there, his asperger like qualities, his wanting to just 'forget' and 'get on' with life after her death, etc. And that she would go to his bed. I think it is quite possible.
I apologize if any of this disturbs anyone. I've though about posting something about Burke & sexually assaulting JonBenet but felt I'd have to back up my concerns with my own experience....yuck...but I did it finally.
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The 'yuck' and 'ick' or responses from another thread - not anyone's remarks on this one!
I, for one, am growing increasingly disturbed by the descriptions of what JB may have put in her vagina or done to herself or her imagined orgasms (complete with a group of men looking on). I have to wonder, as should we all, what is behind it. This is speculation- not fact, and nothing is served (especially not JB) by the continuing graphic descriptions of an imagined, but still horrific, molestation of a little girl.
Someone molested her. Fact. Whether or not some vaginal injuries MAY have been the result of childhood sexual exploration- something penetrated her that night with enough force to cause bleeding. News flash to some males out there- this does NOT feel good to any female. And no child would do that to herself.
You are right. And once again, I have to wonder the real purpose of the continued imaginings concerning the abuse (including self-abuse) of this innocent CHILD.
DeeDee, I have to admit that my reaction to parts of this thread was in itself a reaction to reading John Mark Karr yammering on about Madeleine McCann elsewhere and realising that the sick freak still reads the forums. I know we can't worry too much about who is reading the forum or we'd end up posting nothing, but, ewwww!
Give it a rest, already. JBR did not masturbate to the point of bleeding. And she did not masturbate herself to death.
6-year old girls do not engage auto-erotic asphyxiation.
This was not consensual sexual contact.
Hi DeeDee.
Yes I was having difficulty considering this possibility,
as suggested by voynich, that masterbation would cause this type of damage.
As LA retold her experience at the autopsy, did she not say the damage suggested digital penetration by a right handed individual and possibly, previously by an object the size of a penis?
Det. Linda Arndt was present at the autopsy, and she reported that the coroner said that the injuries to JB were consistent with digital penetration, NOT a penis.
Unless...it belonged to Burke