I'm pretty much equal opportunity about these things. I'm of the mind that, if exploring something could lead to a resolution, I'll pursue it and others should as well, even if I don't like it.
Your choice.
A rather "personal" question about female part
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I'm pretty much equal opportunity about these things. I'm of the mind that, if exploring something could lead to a resolution, I'll pursue it and others should as well, even if I don't like it.
Your choice.
Linda7NJ
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BBM Many sexually abused children, forensically examined, yield ZERO evidence of abuse. I have personally known young female children that were the victims of intercourse with adult males where the hymen has remained intact. It depends upon the amount of time and care invested by the male and the elasticity of the hymen.
I've known male children that were the victims of sodomy and no tearing, fissures or scar tissue was present.
The specific cases I am referring to, there was other evidence to convict... a sexually transmitted disease, photographs taken by the adult or video evidence.
All that said...my money is still on Patsy
Sorry...should have clarified that I also meant not only is evidence frequently over-simplified, missed, or ignored...but that (specifically regarding sexual abuse in children) my point was that even an ME or pediatric specialist could very possibly not see evidence of these particular crimes that occur against children.
Linda7NJ- thank you for pointing out more clearly what I was trying to say.
Linda7NJ- thank you for pointing out more clearly what I was trying to say.
Jane Osa
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I'm posting this here where it seems to be appropriate - basically I think burke & his friends, possibly, was abusing her. The thread this comes from has a ridiculous fantasy of JonBenet enjoying being molested, et al....won't go into it more, so posting my post here instead:
First -ICK! Could have used at least a warning. Anyway - I get your point....not sure it adds up. As nasty as I find the Ramseys, not sure even they would pimp their daughter sexually. Although, as far as I'm concerned the nature of the beauty pageants come close.
I think that the clitoris might be formed enough to create sensation. Not sure of orgasm in the sense of a grown sexually mature woman, though.
I still have doubts about Burke. I can't help but feel he might have been the one sexually assaulting her. But, it may have been mutual in the sense that JonBenet went along with it. It's a taboo - but, I know of at least two siblings when I was young who 'experimented' with each other. Nothing overt, etc. - more like the playing 'doctor' thing - children are very curious. And I think Burke was coming to an age of being curious and he's got this sister...so - he explores this with her. I don't mean to offend or gross people out - but, it is a fact that many siblings have something like this happen. I lived for a time in a very bad neighborhood - that is where I learned of stuff between a brother & sister....gross & I won't go into it. there was a six year old (I was six to seven) who would steal playboys out of her step-fathers bathroom - she climbed up through the window to get these things. I still remember being traumatized from one particular image! I was almost 'raped' by a boy in this neighborhood a few years older - I write rape in quotes because I'm not sure what he'd be capable of....another gal when I was around nine was always trying to pressure me into taking baths or otherwise getting naked with her...and at the same time some boy my age too! This boy is the other sibling pair I know that some 'exploring' went on. I'm writing all this to back those who think 'no way' or it isn't possible - considering all we know of Burke - his whittling at wood with a knife, his yellling at people to get out of his room & having the door closed with JonBenet in there, his asperger like qualities, his wanting to just 'forget' and 'get on' with life after her death, etc. And that she would go to his bed. I think it is quite possible.
I apologize if any of this disturbs anyone. I've though about posting something about Burke & sexually assaulting JonBenet but felt I'd have to back up my concerns with my own experience....yuck...but I did it finally.
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First -ICK! Could have used at least a warning. Anyway - I get your point....not sure it adds up. As nasty as I find the Ramseys, not sure even they would pimp their daughter sexually. Although, as far as I'm concerned the nature of the beauty pageants come close.
I think that the clitoris might be formed enough to create sensation. Not sure of orgasm in the sense of a grown sexually mature woman, though.
I still have doubts about Burke. I can't help but feel he might have been the one sexually assaulting her. But, it may have been mutual in the sense that JonBenet went along with it. It's a taboo - but, I know of at least two siblings when I was young who 'experimented' with each other. Nothing overt, etc. - more like the playing 'doctor' thing - children are very curious. And I think Burke was coming to an age of being curious and he's got this sister...so - he explores this with her. I don't mean to offend or gross people out - but, it is a fact that many siblings have something like this happen. I lived for a time in a very bad neighborhood - that is where I learned of stuff between a brother & sister....gross & I won't go into it. there was a six year old (I was six to seven) who would steal playboys out of her step-fathers bathroom - she climbed up through the window to get these things. I still remember being traumatized from one particular image! I was almost 'raped' by a boy in this neighborhood a few years older - I write rape in quotes because I'm not sure what he'd be capable of....another gal when I was around nine was always trying to pressure me into taking baths or otherwise getting naked with her...and at the same time some boy my age too! This boy is the other sibling pair I know that some 'exploring' went on. I'm writing all this to back those who think 'no way' or it isn't possible - considering all we know of Burke - his whittling at wood with a knife, his yellling at people to get out of his room & having the door closed with JonBenet in there, his asperger like qualities, his wanting to just 'forget' and 'get on' with life after her death, etc. And that she would go to his bed. I think it is quite possible.
I apologize if any of this disturbs anyone. I've though about posting something about Burke & sexually assaulting JonBenet but felt I'd have to back up my concerns with my own experience....yuck...but I did it finally.
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Same caveat as above post!
Now that I'm thinking on this many other instances have popped out of the abyss of childhood. It's distubing, really. But, my point is that children are very curious and some can be pretty agressive about it. I've recalled all these instances from when I, and other kids, were under the age of ten!
Also, the type of injuries sustained that, if I'm not wrong, couldn't be fully determined also seem like 'childs play' - not something a grown adult would do...but damage or penetration, irritation, etc. via child-like games, etc. Also - no semen, right? Anyway...I find it difficult to 'talk' about JonBenet and possible sexual abuse. So, I'll leave it there. But, there is something about Burke that instinctively raises my hackles! And I haven't been able to shake it from the get go. I would add that anything between Burke and JonBenet may have been relatively 'innocent' - but, finding them may have triggered a rage in Patsy or maybe Burke did go to far with some 'game'.
Now that I'm thinking on this many other instances have popped out of the abyss of childhood. It's distubing, really. But, my point is that children are very curious and some can be pretty agressive about it. I've recalled all these instances from when I, and other kids, were under the age of ten!
Also, the type of injuries sustained that, if I'm not wrong, couldn't be fully determined also seem like 'childs play' - not something a grown adult would do...but damage or penetration, irritation, etc. via child-like games, etc. Also - no semen, right? Anyway...I find it difficult to 'talk' about JonBenet and possible sexual abuse. So, I'll leave it there. But, there is something about Burke that instinctively raises my hackles! And I haven't been able to shake it from the get go. I would add that anything between Burke and JonBenet may have been relatively 'innocent' - but, finding them may have triggered a rage in Patsy or maybe Burke did go to far with some 'game'.
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05-30-2009 05:14 PM
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05-27-2009 11:57 PM
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05-27-2009 11:46 PM
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05-27-2009 10:41 PM
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05-23-2009 05:00 PM
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05-22-2009 12:32 PM
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Thanks for the laugh!
>insert sarcasm here for the following:<
"graphic depictions of vaginas"...OH MY! Quick...get the damn warning up NOW! Warn everyone of this danger!! Wow---we will all be mentally poisoned and our eyes will fall out if we read about VAGINAS! People crack me up. It's a freaking vagina--big deal. Newsflash: Everyone in the world has genitalia. It's amazing the hang-ups people still have about it.
PUH-LEEZE! If anyone needs a warning because vaginas (oh my!) are being discussed, they shouldn't be reading on WS. You feel that you should have been warned prior to reading this thread?
Eh, never mind.
Having been the proud owner of a vagina for 60 years, it doesn't disturb me in the least to discuss vaginas.
Nor is it disturbing to read about the vaginal trauma and injuries found on JBR- it is, after all, a necessary part of the case.
It is, however, disturbing to discuss the notion that a 6-year old girl found strangled, bludgeoned with bruising and/or blood in or near her vagina got that way through masturbation. And that is what was being mentioned here.
Nor is it disturbing to read about the vaginal trauma and injuries found on JBR- it is, after all, a necessary part of the case.
It is, however, disturbing to discuss the notion that a 6-year old girl found strangled, bludgeoned with bruising and/or blood in or near her vagina got that way through masturbation. And that is what was being mentioned here.
Sophie
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Thanks for the laugh!
>insert sarcasm here for the following:<
People crack me up. It's a freaking vagina--big deal. Newsflash: Everyone in the world has genitalia. It's amazing the hang-ups people still have about it.
PUH-LEEZE! If anyone needs a warning because vaginas (oh my!) are being discussed, they shouldn't be reading on WS. You feel that you should have been warned prior to reading this thread?
We are talking pictures of immature vaginas. Not about discussion of them. There should have been a warning that there were these pictures on the thread as we always warn when there are autopsy pictures which, using your reasioning, we should expect given that this is a murder site.
Discussing whether JBR masturbated or played with tampons will never in a billion years solve this crime and is essentially just an IDI excuse to try to downplay the prior vaginal injury. However, it's not the discussion that alarmed anyone.
Sophie
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I have no idea why people are still going on about my objecting to a lack of warnings that there were going to be pictures of an immature vagina on the thread. We do it for autopsy pictures and should do it for other pictures: people aren't always alone when they view these threads and the fact is, we aren't talking about adult sexuality, we are talking about a child. More sensitivity is obviously required, especially given the view of the Ramseys and their lawyers of the weirdness of JBR-case followers on the Internet. This isn't about prudishness or about stifling discussion. I was careful not to ask that the pictures be removed, that the mods make a ruling or that the discussion be curtailed. We are mostly adults and this is an important aspect of the case. What I was asking for was a recognition that this is a dead child's most intimate parts that we are discussing. It's not my vagina, or DeeDee's or Madeleine's. It's that of a murdered 6 year-old.
Separately, Voynich, I was wrong. You haven't started many threads on the topic. However, you have made a number of lengthy contributions to threads where this was discussed. For example, you told us all that if you were a woman, you would masturbate vaginally and clitorally. You also suggested making a model vagina which attracted criticism from a number of posters. You also indicated that, as a heterosexual male, you were fascinated by the Sapphism of the Meredith Kercher murder and were disappointed that there had been no response to your post about it. These were all discussed at length by many posters so no one is suggesting anything untoward in your posts. No one is suggesting anything untoward in this thread other than a simple request that you put a warning before the pictures since people may view these threads at work, on the train home or with their kids in the same room.
ETA: One of the posts I had in mind:
07-09-2009, 05:08 AM
voynich
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeDee249
Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. And what of the vaginal trauma? Traces of blood, bruising...that was NOT from bubblebath. Or overzealous cleansing. To suggest these things were self-inflicted is an absolute disgrace against an innocent child. To suggest it simply because of the refusal to consider parental abuse is disgusting.
Is it possible that say JB played doctor w/say BR, found it pleasurable and continued on her own? I've heard it claimed by lesbians and feminists that girls will play with girls "down there". I want to make it clear I'm just the messenger.
And while I'm not female, if I were, why not masturbate BOTH clitoris and vagina? I imagine that's what I would do.
How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?
It should be possible to construct a replica using latex and rubber of a 5 y/o and perform test trials but I suspect that it is not possible.
__________________
Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics can be downloaded by clicking here
http://www.filestube.com/8ab5481c3a4...9/details.html
Justice is in IDI or JIDI (pronounced Jedi)
We Ramsey SpIn Theme or We R SITH
Separately, Voynich, I was wrong. You haven't started many threads on the topic. However, you have made a number of lengthy contributions to threads where this was discussed. For example, you told us all that if you were a woman, you would masturbate vaginally and clitorally. You also suggested making a model vagina which attracted criticism from a number of posters. You also indicated that, as a heterosexual male, you were fascinated by the Sapphism of the Meredith Kercher murder and were disappointed that there had been no response to your post about it. These were all discussed at length by many posters so no one is suggesting anything untoward in your posts. No one is suggesting anything untoward in this thread other than a simple request that you put a warning before the pictures since people may view these threads at work, on the train home or with their kids in the same room.
ETA: One of the posts I had in mind:
07-09-2009, 05:08 AM
voynich
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: college campus
Posts: 979
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeDee249
Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. And what of the vaginal trauma? Traces of blood, bruising...that was NOT from bubblebath. Or overzealous cleansing. To suggest these things were self-inflicted is an absolute disgrace against an innocent child. To suggest it simply because of the refusal to consider parental abuse is disgusting.
Is it possible that say JB played doctor w/say BR, found it pleasurable and continued on her own? I've heard it claimed by lesbians and feminists that girls will play with girls "down there". I want to make it clear I'm just the messenger.
And while I'm not female, if I were, why not masturbate BOTH clitoris and vagina? I imagine that's what I would do.
How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?
It should be possible to construct a replica using latex and rubber of a 5 y/o and perform test trials but I suspect that it is not possible.
__________________
Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics can be downloaded by clicking here
http://www.filestube.com/8ab5481c3a4...9/details.html
Justice is in IDI or JIDI (pronounced Jedi)
We Ramsey SpIn Theme or We R SITH
Sophie
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That is 100% the case. You can't be a woman in the 21st century and object to the discussion of vaginas. Trying to link a child's masturbatory habits to her murder is another matter entirely. Ironically, RDI could easily 'spin' (just for you, Voynich) the possibility of a slightly prudish parent catching JBR masturbating and lashing out at her in a sort of Puritan fury.
Sophie
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Thanks for the laugh!
>insert sarcasm here for the following:<
People crack me up. It's a freaking vagina--big deal. Newsflash: Everyone in the world has genitalia. It's amazing the hang-ups people still have about it.
PUH-LEEZE! If anyone needs a warning because vaginas (oh my!) are being discussed, they shouldn't be reading on WS. You feel that you should have been warned prior to reading this thread?
BTW, we are talking about PICTURES of vaginas. Children's vaginas. Not the discussion of them. Not adults' vaginas. Children's vaginas. That is what is meant by 'depiction' here. If you don't see why a caveat about these pictures - albeit from Wiki and innocent for research purposes - is appropriate and if you think talking about vaginas generally is the same as talking about a child 13 years dead having her masturbatory habits speculated upon in order to try to exonerate her parents from any wrongdoing then I guess we are just on different wavelengths.
I am disturbed, though, that you find anything to laugh at here. If the fact that the little lamb is still being robbed of her dignity on a daily basis by speculation about her masturbation is funny to you (because that, and pictures of immature vaginas were what a couple of us found upsetting) I'd hate to see your sofa after an episode of 'Curb Your Enthusiasm.'
Whether JBR masturbated or not will never solve this crime. Police looking at who had close, unsupervised contact with JBR may just help.
Thanks for the laugh!
>insert sarcasm here for the following:<
People crack me up. It's a freaking vagina--big deal. Newsflash: Everyone in the world has genitalia. It's amazing the hang-ups people still have about it.
PUH-LEEZE! If anyone needs a warning because vaginas (oh my!) are being discussed, they shouldn't be reading on WS. You feel that you should have been warned prior to reading this thread?
BTW, we are talking about PICTURES of vaginas. Children's vaginas. Not the discussion of them. Not adults' vaginas. Children's vaginas. That is what is meant by 'depiction' here. If you don't see why a caveat about these pictures - albeit from Wiki and innocent for research purposes - is appropriate and if you think talking about vaginas generally is the same as talking about a child 13 years dead having her masturbatory habits speculated upon in order to try to exonerate her parents from any wrongdoing then I guess we are just on different wavelengths.
I am disturbed, though, that you find anything to laugh at here. If the fact that the little lamb is still being robbed of her dignity on a daily basis by speculation about her masturbation is funny to you (because that, and pictures of immature vaginas were what a couple of us found upsetting) I'd hate to see your sofa after an episode of 'Curb Your Enthusiasm.'
Whether JBR masturbated or not will never solve this crime. Police looking at who had close, unsupervised contact with JBR may just help.
The only pics I see are "drawings".
My laugh was geared toward the posted objections regarding this subject. Your insinuation that I would laugh at a "little lamb still being robbed of her dignity on a daily basis" is ridiculous. Some people might say that referring to this beautiful child as an animal (i.e., a little lamb) is robbing this child of her dignity, albeit in a small way.
If I found a thread so disturbing, I simply wouldn't continue to participate in it, because as we know, each posting puts the thread right back on the top of the list. You have continued to participate and post some interesting opinions and good info (I thought they were interesting and I do mean that in a good way) that have contributed to this thread. Although the innuendo that Voynich is somehow getting off on this topic is unfair and not deserved.
We don't have to agree.
By the way, my sofa looks fabulous before, during and after an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Thanks for the innuendo, though.
Well exactly. While Dave is the resident Sith Lord, Sophie has done a better job pissing me off. :furious: Perhaps SD is a Dooku apprentice and Sophie the master Sidious.
I'd suggest you take a second look at those pictures.
They are medical illustrations ---drawings--- of HYMENS, not pictures. We cannot even infer they are hymens of children since theoretically adult women can have an intact hymen.
You forget but your fellow Sith lord Deedee claimed the hymen is NOT located near the entrance of the vagina, and she has, she admits, repeatedly made this claim in the past.
DeeDee249
Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. I'd say she knew about douching because people who knew Patsy said she did it to JB after she soiled herself.
But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina and no where near the clitoris, where pleasure is most felt.
But I don't think that a 6-year old would reach it with her fingers. I've heard it can be torn by certain activities, but I don't think that ballet as practiced by a 6-year old would damage it.
My reply to Deedee is there's no reason a girl couldn't masturbate BOTH clitoris and vagina.
Not just me,
Would you mind answering my question then? How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?
Ok well test the above with the below,
DeeDee249
Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. I'd say she knew about douching because people who knew Patsy said she did it to JB after she soiled herself.
But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina and no where near the clitoris, where pleasure is most felt.
But I don't think that a 6-year old would reach it with her fingers. I've heard it can be torn by certain activities, but I don't think that ballet as practiced by a 6-year old would damage it.
My reply to Deedee is there's no reason a girl couldn't masturbate BOTH clitoris and vagina.
please read below
Do you agree with Deedee or Karikaie
Would you mind answering my question then? How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?
Ok well test the above with the below,
DeeDee249
Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. I'd say she knew about douching because people who knew Patsy said she did it to JB after she soiled herself.
But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina and no where near the clitoris, where pleasure is most felt.
But I don't think that a 6-year old would reach it with her fingers. I've heard it can be torn by certain activities, but I don't think that ballet as practiced by a 6-year old would damage it.
SOphie, how would you respond to Deedee?
Please specify these claims
1 hat is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous.
2 But to suggest that JB eroded her own hymen through masturbation is particularly vile, as well as being impossible. Her fingers would not reach her hymen.
3 I've said this before, but you choose to ignore it. The hymen is NOT near the opening of the vagina and no where near the clitoris, where pleasure is most felt.
4 But I don't think that a 6-year old would reach it with her fingers. I've heard it can be torn by certain activities, but I don't think that ballet as practiced by a 6-year old would damage it.
Sophie, tell me something, can an Adult man insert his entire finger into a 6 year old vagina and hymen on a repeated basis, startng when say she was 3, without rupturing it? What about his penis? How likely is this? Prove it.
Sophie
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Look, it really doesn't warrant all the giddiness. It's just another difference of opinion on the JBR case. There have been thousands before and there will be thousands again.
Voynich, you are entitled to do what you think best and I presumably am entitled to worry about whether we are doing JBR a disservice by discussing her intimate habits when the first point of investigation has to be looking at the probable link between the acute and chronic vaginal injuries sustained by a murdered child.
If you think that JBR knowing about menstruation and masturbation will help solve the crime, then you must carry on with the discussion. I disagree and will beg out of the thread. On this point, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. END OF.
Voynich, you are entitled to do what you think best and I presumably am entitled to worry about whether we are doing JBR a disservice by discussing her intimate habits when the first point of investigation has to be looking at the probable link between the acute and chronic vaginal injuries sustained by a murdered child.
If you think that JBR knowing about menstruation and masturbation will help solve the crime, then you must carry on with the discussion. I disagree and will beg out of the thread. On this point, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. END OF.