A Thought

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Along this line of thinking, what if the scream was actually PR walking into something and SHE screamed? Could she have grabbed the nearest thing - a golf club - and swung it at the molester and whacked JB over the head instead? Just thinking of all possibilities...
 
Thanks for starting this thread, Anyhoo. Lately I have come to see this type of theory as the one that answers most of the forensic evidence, as well as the motive, and the circumstantial evidence.

FWIW, I do believe BR was a very, very troubled child and do not doubt that he was abused within the family and perhaps by close friends. Add the invalidated reports of him displaying symptoms of aspergers, and I see most of the witnessed behaviors after JB's death being very believable without having to suspect he was involved in anything related to it short of learning about it very, very early that morning when he asked questions during the 911 call.

Support of a JR molestation/PR catching them in the act:

1. Chronic vaginal evidence at autopsy. Statistics declare an adult male most responsible in child sexual abuse. (I have to add here that I believe JAR and even Burke were also involved with JB...she was trained by PR to believe sexualization at her age was acceptable. I believe Patsy grew up that way as a victim in her home, and accepted her adult lifestyle as a sort of "reward" that was a complex mix of daddy worship, love of money and beauty, and secretive behavior.)

2. The "secret Santa visit" expected by JB, with the Santa suit, admittedly JR's, taken into evidence by BPD. Cotton was also taken into evidence, which I believe prompted questioning of JR later by LE with regard to the type of material the Santa beard was made of. The angel ornament taken into evidence from the WC also connects to JR: he called JB his angel when he laid down on the floor next to her after she was placed in the living room. JB had a tree in her room with angels on it, one especially for Beth, and that JR recalled in one of his books that he had been using medication to help with his inordinate continued grieving for Beth that year. I have always wondered if the angel ornament was the one representing Beth that might have been taken from JB's tree and carried along on the trip to the basement.

3. The photo posted up on FFJ some time back with what appears to be a "Holiday Barbie" from that year packaged as a gift, in a somewhat disheveled display. JR disclosed in one of his books that he had wrapped Christmas gifts himself that year....and I believe the Holiday Barbie could have been used as an enticement for JB.

4. The time of the death as determined from the digestion of the pineapple would match up well with the supposition that PR could have fallen asleep while finishing some last minute packing activities, but awakened to recall the need to take JB to the bathroom, only to discover her missing from bed. And after checking the other bedrooms and also seeing JR gone from bed, went quietly about following up her suspicions of molestation.....grabbing the flashlight and keeping the lights off to remain undetected by JR as she set about the search.

5. Patsy was suffering from fatigue, use of alcohol, reported use of anti-depressants, and as much as she downplayed her ovarian cancer, I believe she harbored a real terror of that cancer coming back at any time. It is a killer cancer, and that deep rooted gnawing at her along with the physical hormonal changes coupled with LHP's report of the trouble in the Ramsey's sex life, could have produced a bubbling volcano of rage just waiting for the spark that would ignite the explosion.

6. The RN screams PR. Try as I might in pinning that on JR (and I have really tried) I must conclude for myself that the RN was part of a quickly concocted scheme to develop something that looked as if an intruder came into their home and killed JB. JR might have had some input as to how to "reason" the plot, but I believe Patsy put the plan together, only to then become the one to place the 911 call which disrupted the full plan which would have allowed for removal of her body because she could not bear to dispose of JB into the elements. I think she transitioned into becoming a genuine basket case as the effects of her rage wore off. She had to live with her lie, but without her daughter in the beginning it was horrific for her.

7. The plans for Charlevoix and the Disney cruise indicate to me that her death was not premeditated prior to the head blow. All indications were that the family had plans which would have taken them all away from Boulder and into each other's close company for a good deal of time, and that supports the idea that JR would have additional reasoning in his mind for a special sexual event with JB for Christmas.

8. A scream by JB could have been accounted for by pain OR terror of seeing her mother coming at her in rage with a raised weapon poised for the blow. The type of head injury indicated force with intent to do harm much more than a knee-jerk reaction by JR to pain JB might have caused him. It's also possible the scream came from PR as a reaction to her discovery. If JB's scream was a reaction to pain caused by JR, he could have stifled her (with some kind of short choke hold?) as she struggled until he could put his hand on a weapon that he could use intentionally, fearing she would have that time disclosed the truth.

9. JR's shirt fibers inside her size 12 panties lead me to believe he was there with her at some time after she returned from the Whites and before she was brought up from the WC, when she would have been without any sort of bottoms at all. One pair would have been off in order for the size 12's to go on.

10. I believe the pineapple and tea were prepared by Patsy and Burke, and that JB was a part of snack time. It is at this time that Patsy could have then decided to go off and do some packing, or even head for bed, thinking JR would or could get the kids to bed. Maybe BR was next to bed, with JR planning to save "bedtime" for JB for last. Could he have actually taken her to her room, put her down, and returned very shortly for the secret Santa visit? Pretty easy for him then to lead her down to the basement, accounting for the lint found on the bottom of her feet.

It is possible the molestation attempt began gently in her bedroom, but it was planned for escalation which required the trip to the basement. Given the condition of the train room, and marks on JB that could have resulted with her body coming in contact with the track pieces, I suspect somehow there could have been havoc related to the molestation occurring in the train room, possibly complicated by PR's discovery of them there. I believe the WC was the "dumping" spot for things they could not dispose of or try to return to their original spots that were related to the crime and any staging that happened. Naturally, some things would have been overlooked in the aftermath...other pieces of paintbrush left in the tray, the pineapple snack not cleaned up. So much to do and so little time before early AM and the ruse would have to ensue.

I believe the ligature was used by JR, but constructed by PR. It is not a stretch to me to think that he told PR they should put a garrote device around her neck to make her death look like an intruder killing, especially if they felt they might actually have to end her life because she was not gone from the head blow. PR could have collected up some of her supplies from her art work, gotten the cord ready, but had to hand it off to JR for the final deed if she could not go through with it. He was the one most likely to be familiar with garroting being used as a quick method of debilitation, having been stationed in Subic Bay, where the garrote was (and still is) a major method of debilitation, crime and death. He had to take a shower and clean himself up, and with PR still wearing her party clothing from the night before, this might have allowed time for her to fashion the ligature and write the note. JR would have needed time to make sure all forensic evidence related to being close to JB sexually, and perhaps even in a struggle, would have been thoroughly cleansed and then disposed of.

The reveal of the GJ indictment placing responsibility for JB's death on both parents has helped me to finalize my decision of a sexual molestation related crime involving JR with JB, and PR acting out against JB in rage upon full awareness of her participation with JR. I believe PR was keeping a blind eye to what she did not want to accept but probably suspected for a good deal of time about JB involved incestuously not only with her son, but her husband, but then the perfect storm of that Christmas became the stage for what ended up being the "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town".
 
This rings true b/c PR had her doing that beauty pageant thing. Maybe she lived vicariously through JBR but got then got jealous of her. It's really dark stuff.

Along this line of thinking, what if the scream was actually PR walking into something and SHE screamed? Could she have grabbed the nearest thing - a golf club - and swung it at the molester and whacked JB over the head instead? Just thinking of all possibilities...

Wow nice insight. I can actually envision that happening. In that case, both parents would likely feel compelled to create the ruse, each for different reasons but the main reason would be self preservation. However, I don't like the idea of the two assaults. Something odd about that.
 
Wow nice insight. I can actually envision that happening. In that case, both parents would likely feel compelled to create the ruse, each for different reasons but the main reason would be self preservation. However, I don't like the idea of the two assaults. Something odd about that.

I don't know... I always found JRs story about climbing half naked through the broken window suspect. It felt like he was trying to explain away the broken window and possible DNA. I guess in my head someone swinging a golf club in that room explained a lot.
Side note - through all the interviews and everything, why do they keep stating how JR is in his underwear? Climbing through windows, reading ransom notes... It's seems unnecessary information.
 
Snipped content . . .
From Midwest Mama
'The reveal of the GJ indictment placing responsibility for JB's death on both parents has helped me to finalize my decision of a sexual molestation related crime involving JR with JB, and PR acting out against JB in rage upon full awareness of her participation with JR. I believe PR was keeping a blind eye to what she did not want to accept but probably suspected for a good deal of time about JB involved incestuously not only with her son, but her husband, but then the perfect storm of that Christmas became the stage for what ended up being the "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town".
_______________
Here's a couple of other things that swayed me towards the parents' involvement:

From the Bonita papers: “On December 27, 24 hours after the discovery of JonBenet's body, Det. Arndt went to the Fernies' residence for a second meeting with John and Patsy, but was confronted by Mike Bynum, a lawyer and family friend. Arndt was informed that attorneys had been retained to speak for the Ramseys and that John and Patsy would answer no further questions from the Boulder police.

“The next morning official confirmation came from the Denver law firm of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman that they had been retained to represent John, and that Boulder attorneys Patrick Burke and Patrick Furman had been retained to represent Patsy. When the Boulder police subsequently attempted to interview John's former wife, it was discovered that an attorney had also been hired to represent her, and eventually even Burke would get his own legal counsel.”

He obtained lawyers first for himself and PR. Then for his ex-wife and lastly for BR is how I read this. Now what one assumes (rightly or wrongly), is they are the ones in need of an attorney. Then, JR recognized the BPD might question his ex about his past. JR had already fessed up to an affair ending his marriage, so what was he worried about that she might say? Involves speculation here.

Shortly after they’d departed from the home, PP was allowed to remove items. One of the items requested were PR’s and JR’s passports. One’s daughter has been murdered, but one might need a passport? Was the R’s trip to the Caribbean to try to move money into an offshore account? Just questions. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything here, ‘cause none of us know for sure.

It just has seemed like there was a true desperate quality to JR's decisions and actions. If he was involved, JR was making d--m sure he would not ever face a jail. All moo.
 
JR might have had some input as to how to "reason" the plot, but I believe Patsy put the plan together, only to then become the one to place the 911 call which disrupted the full plan which would have allowed for removal of her body because she could not bear to dispose of JB into the elements.

Thanks for this detailed post. It's the clearest one-page explanation of a plausible scenario I have seen.

One thing I don't understand is how they had time to do the staging if the initial plan was to dump the body elsewhere but PR interrupted that plan by calling 911. The RN reads like a longwinded explanation of all the reasons the Rs would sneak around and travel long distances without contacting LE or friends. So if LE found him in the woods with her body, he could say this was the arduous delivery of the ransom but the kidnappers didn't keep their word.

By calling 911 and friends, she completely hosed this scenario. The note says repeatedly they're being watched carefully and will kill her if they even suspect someone called LE or friends, yet that's the first thing she does. For this scenario, they should have written a note that says something about sexual fantasies about killing little girls.

It appears someone took time and effort making it look like a sexual predator did it and time and effort crafting a RN that points the opposite direction. Why would they put effort into two contradictory scenarios?
 
I don't know... I always found JRs story about climbing half naked through the broken window suspect. It felt like he was trying to explain away the broken window and possible DNA. I guess in my head someone swinging a golf club in that room explained a lot.
Side note - through all the interviews and everything, why do they keep stating how JR is in his underwear? Climbing through windows, reading ransom notes... It's seems unnecessary information.

I would imagine if he was wearing a $1500. Suit... He'd strip down. I know my husband better before crawling into a basement window.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Snipped content . . .
From Midwest Mama
'The reveal of the GJ indictment placing responsibility for JB's death on both parents has helped me to finalize my decision of a sexual molestation related crime involving JR with JB, and PR acting out against JB in rage upon full awareness of her participation with JR. I believe PR was keeping a blind eye to what she did not want to accept but probably suspected for a good deal of time about JB involved incestuously not only with her son, but her husband, but then the perfect storm of that Christmas became the stage for what ended up being the "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town".
_______________
Here's a couple of other things that swayed me towards the parents' involvement:

From the Bonita papers: “On December 27, 24 hours after the discovery of JonBenet's body, Det. Arndt went to the Fernies' residence for a second meeting with John and Patsy, but was confronted by Mike Bynum, a lawyer and family friend. Arndt was informed that attorneys had been retained to speak for the Ramseys and that John and Patsy would answer no further questions from the Boulder police.

“The next morning official confirmation came from the Denver law firm of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman that they had been retained to represent John, and that Boulder attorneys Patrick Burke and Patrick Furman had been retained to represent Patsy. When the Boulder police subsequently attempted to interview John's former wife, it was discovered that an attorney had also been hired to represent her, and eventually even Burke would get his own legal counsel.”

He obtained lawyers first for himself and PR. Then for his ex-wife and lastly for BR is how I read this. Now what one assumes (rightly or wrongly), is they are the ones in need of an attorney. Then, JR recognized the BPD might question his ex about his past. JR had already fessed up to an affair ending his marriage, so what was he worried about that she might say? Involves speculation here.

Shortly after they’d departed from the home, PP was allowed to remove items. One of the items requested were PR’s and JR’s passports. One’s daughter has been murdered, but one might need a passport? Was the R’s trip to the Caribbean to try to move money into an offshore account? Just questions. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything here, ‘cause none of us know for sure.

It just has seemed like there was a true desperate quality to JR's decisions and actions. If he was involved, JR was making d--m sure he would not ever face a jail. All moo.
re your last paragraph. Exactly. A lot has been said about BR being sent off with friends, because 'what if he let something slip'? But what about PR? She was so sedated she could barely function. Weren't they scared she'd slip up? So, we have BR being allowed to go off with others, PR sedated, (remember the cnn interview?), and JR bustling around arranging flights, hiring lawyers, wanting his passports...something's not right here. I've never discounted L Arndt's testimony. She saw JR when he was at his most vulnerable and she knew something was seriously not right. For awhile now, I've been giving some theories besides an isolated rage some consideration. What if the molestation was ongoing, PR knew it and couldn't take it anymore. What if she felt that this was it, her daughter was ruined and now was the time. Enough was enough and one way or another, this was going to stop. So, maybe a rage plus some forethought. Maybe JR wasn't present during the murder, but he knew what caused it, so he jumped on board. IDK, just a theory based on the previous injuries. moo
 
Along this line of thinking, what if the scream was actually PR walking into something and SHE screamed? Could she have grabbed the nearest thing - a golf club - and swung it at the molester and whacked JB over the head instead? Just thinking of all possibilities...

Possibility. I could swear that in a photo of the basement, a set of golf clubs are shown.
 
The scream of pain is different than the scream of great fear. Whether she actually screamed or not, IDK, but if she did I remember this scream was described as a child in the grasp of terror. This would lead credence to your theory about being discovered by PR and the fear JB might have felt with PR's anger.

Your theory is one I've looked at several times. Essentially, of course, IDK, but it is close to one of the scenarios I think could have happened. When I’ve viewed the photos of BR at JB’s funeral, there’s JR looking dignified and serene, there’s PR dressed like Jackie Kennedy, and there’s BR – like an afterthought, in a too small suit, not an arm around him, not much attention to him. PR had a friend of BR’s come along with his mother to provide someone to be with BR, a companion for him during this dark event and a "nanny" for BR. And the views of these 2 parents at the funeral lead me back to how immersed they were in themselves.

I don’t know with any certainty why PR was the one to call 911, and while I can’t exclude any of the 3 of them for any of it, one of my theories is that the two adults were involved in JB's death and then reached some kind of uneasy détente between one another that night. The estrangement between them the morning of LA’s appearance, the accusatory admonition in the note to JR, paraphrasing: It’s up to you now J (to fix this.) And, for insurance, a dictionary pointing to the word “incest,” in case he did not protect her and the family. That dictionary wouldn't be open to that to point to BR imo. moo

BBM- Who brings along a friend to occupy a kid at his sisters funeral? Wouldn't they all want to be together as a family? I mean a member of the family was brutally killed. This was one wacky family.
 
re your last paragraph. Exactly. A lot has been said about BR being sent off with friends, because 'what if he let something slip'? But what about PR? She was so sedated she could barely function. Weren't they scared she'd slip up? So, we have BR being allowed to go off with others, PR sedated, (remember the cnn interview?), and JR bustling around arranging flights, hiring lawyers, wanting his passports...something's not right here. I've never discounted L Arndt's testimony. She saw JR when he was at his most vulnerable and she knew something was seriously not right. For awhile now, I've been giving some theories besides an isolated rage some consideration. What if the molestation was ongoing, PR knew it and couldn't take it anymore. What if she felt that this was it, her daughter was ruined and now was the time. Enough was enough and one way or another, this was going to stop. So, maybe a rage plus some forethought. Maybe JR wasn't present during the murder, but he knew what caused it, so he jumped on board. IDK, just a theory based on the previous injuries. moo

I think that PR had JR and other close friends around her to keep her in check. And she did say to the woman who made JB's pageant dresses something to the effect of asking her to fix this and we didn't mean for this to happen.
Of course, if she did let something slip, they could blame it on her heavy meds.
 
Snipped content . . .
From Midwest Mama
'The reveal of the GJ indictment placing responsibility for JB's death on both parents has helped me to finalize my decision of a sexual molestation related crime involving JR with JB, and PR acting out against JB in rage upon full awareness of her participation with JR. I believe PR was keeping a blind eye to what she did not want to accept but probably suspected for a good deal of time about JB involved incestuously not only with her son, but her husband, but then the perfect storm of that Christmas became the stage for what ended up being the "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town".
_______________
Here's a couple of other things that swayed me towards the parents' involvement:

From the Bonita papers: “On December 27, 24 hours after the discovery of JonBenet's body, Det. Arndt went to the Fernies' residence for a second meeting with John and Patsy, but was confronted by Mike Bynum, a lawyer and family friend. Arndt was informed that attorneys had been retained to speak for the Ramseys and that John and Patsy would answer no further questions from the Boulder police.

“The next morning official confirmation came from the Denver law firm of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman that they had been retained to represent John, and that Boulder attorneys Patrick Burke and Patrick Furman had been retained to represent Patsy. When the Boulder police subsequently attempted to interview John's former wife, it was discovered that an attorney had also been hired to represent her, and eventually even Burke would get his own legal counsel.”

He obtained lawyers first for himself and PR. Then for his ex-wife and lastly for BR is how I read this. Now what one assumes (rightly or wrongly), is they are the ones in need of an attorney. Then, JR recognized the BPD might question his ex about his past. JR had already fessed up to an affair ending his marriage, so what was he worried about that she might say? Involves speculation here.

Shortly after they’d departed from the home, PP was allowed to remove items. One of the items requested were PR’s and JR’s passports. One’s daughter has been murdered, but one might need a passport? Was the R’s trip to the Caribbean to try to move money into an offshore account? Just questions. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything here, ‘cause none of us know for sure.

It just has seemed like there was a true desperate quality to JR's decisions and actions. If he was involved, JR was making d--m sure he would not ever face a jail. All moo.

I just want to point out that JR's behavior in hiring these attorneys and esp who he hired them for does not point to BDI. Had this been a case of the parents teaming up to protect their son, a different pattern would have been seen. No, everything JR did was to protect himself and his wife. Even BR was an afterthought. The emphasis was to prevent unwanted information from coming to light about the parents, but especially about JR. This indicates he had something to hide, skeletons in his closet which could relate to the current murder of his daughter. An innocent man has no reason to lawyer up like this so heavily.
 
BBM- Who brings along a friend to occupy a kid at his sisters funeral? Wouldn't they all want to be together as a family? I mean a member of the family was brutally killed. This was one wacky family.
Back in the day, most of the news came from the tabloids and a few news clips. I remember seeing clips of the funeral and was stunned at BR, because for all practical purposes, he was alone. As a matter of fact, I remember my jaw literally dropping. This was all about the Rs and JR being aloof and dignified and PR leaning on her support system. There was no place in their grief for BR. I felt like he had been completely shut out. I didn't know if they didn't care about him or if they were angry with him, or if there was a reason they couldn't include him-like shame and guilt, maybe? For PR to plead with others to keep their babies close, she sure didn't follow her own advice. Neither did JR. moo
 
Back in the day, most of the news came from the tabloids and a few news clips. I remember seeing clips of the funeral and was stunned at BR, because for all practical purposes, he was alone. As a matter of fact, I remember my jaw literally dropping. This was all about the Rs and JR being aloof and dignified and PR leaning on her support system. There was no place in their grief for BR. I felt like he had been completely shut out. I didn't know if they didn't care about him or if they were angry with him, or if there was a reason they couldn't include him-like shame and guilt, maybe? For PR to plead with others to keep their babies close, she sure didn't follow her own advice. Neither did JR. moo

If they cared so much about BR that they covered up for him surely they would pretend to be very close to him post-murder so as to minimize suspicions surrounding him.
 
How does the dictionary folded to that page provide insurance?

These are "if" scenarios, but If PR had perpetrated the head strike, and If JR the molestation, and JR decided to lead police to her, she left a clue for the police. PR was all about hidden clues, acronyms, e.g. PR operated in many ways like an enabling spouse, protecting her husband, yet maybe not knowing whether she might be sold down the river here, and maybe/likely not fully in support of him over this situation.

Now, it doesn't probably seem like "insurance," but PR wouldn't want to turn directly on JR, it seems to me, but rather have the BPD investigate him without her directly saying something to the police.

As I think about it, I have to wonder if JR wasn't contemplating something similar when JR (with great helpfulness) handed over PR's tablet to police, the one from which the RN was written. I don't think the two were at that stage totally in collusion. That happened later. All moo.
 
re your last paragraph. Exactly. A lot has been said about BR being sent off with friends, because 'what if he let something slip'? But what about PR? She was so sedated she could barely function. Weren't they scared she'd slip up? So, we have BR being allowed to go off with others, PR sedated, (remember the cnn interview?), and JR bustling around arranging flights, hiring lawyers, wanting his passports...something's not right here. I've never discounted L Arndt's testimony. She saw JR when he was at his most vulnerable and she knew something was seriously not right. For awhile now, I've been giving some theories besides an isolated rage some consideration. What if the molestation was ongoing, PR knew it and couldn't take it anymore. What if she felt that this was it, her daughter was ruined and now was the time. Enough was enough and one way or another, this was going to stop. So, maybe a rage plus some forethought. Maybe JR wasn't present during the murder, but he knew what caused it, so he jumped on board. IDK, just a theory based on the previous injuries. moo

Have thought of this scenario as well. It was something said by BR in his interview about what happened: Somebody took her quietly downstairs and . . ." What if he was really telling what he knew, because he had heard footsteps going towards JB's room and the footsteps leaving. Kids hear more than we think sometimes and perhaps locked in his head, is the knowledge of whose footsteps those were. moo
 
These are "if" scenarios, but If PR had perpetrated the head strike, and If JR the molestation, and JR decided to lead police to her, she left a clue for the police. PR was all about hidden clues, acronyms, e.g. PR operated in many ways like an enabling spouse, protecting her husband, yet maybe not knowing whether she might be sold down the river here, and maybe/likely not fully in support of him over this situation.

Now, it doesn't probably seem like "insurance," but PR wouldn't want to turn directly on JR, it seems to me, but rather have the BPD investigate him without her directly saying something to the police.

As I think about it, I have to wonder if JR wasn't contemplating something similar when JR (with great helpfulness) handed over PR's tablet to police, the one from which the RN was written. I don't think the two were at that stage totally in collusion. That happened later. All moo.

I agree. That dictionary page thing was a deliberate move by someone in that household presumably PR. It seems likely that it was a clue.
 
If they cared so much about BR that they covered up for him surely they would pretend to be very close to him post-murder so as to minimize suspicions surrounding him.
or on the other end of the spectrum, if he did this to his sister, they could have left him with a sitter. If one of my kids killed a sibling, I wouldn't allow him at the funeral. They could have said the funeral was too traumatic with all the media and it would have been accepted. I didn't understand why the parents weren't hugged up to him, but I remember being very angry. It gave the impression that JB was so favored over BR, that they didn't have the time of day for him.
 
I agree. That dictionary page thing was a deliberate move by someone in that household presumably PR. It seems likely that it was a clue.
could be, because how could 2 college educated adults not know the definition? and they didn't lead sheltered lives at all. Maybe BR looked it up? That sounds a little more age appropriate for him, but IDK. Maybe he heard the word being screamed in a fight so he looked it up, or maybe PR left the book open to point to motive. As in "incest...this is what caused this all". At times, JR and PR seemed ready to turn on each other -like him identifying her paper. Please, who does that?
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
192
Guests online
519
Total visitors
711

Forum statistics

Threads
608,439
Messages
18,239,490
Members
234,370
Latest member
Laura Harter
Back
Top