Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[Betty P]

Today/New on the docket:

The Defense (via Hennessey) files petition for clarification of the Prosecution's Contempt allegations, as (per the D's clarification requests) none appear to meet the definition of contempt.

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JMO

 

[M. Kay]

I'm reading a public library copy of "Down the Hill" by Susan Hendricks, CNN reporter, c. 2023. She subtitles her "descent into the double murder in Delphi", describing interviews with "people at the heart of the story".
Paul Holes cover blurb says we'll never look at this case the same way again. Note, recurring basic questions here on WS are clarified, e.g. her Detective Jerry Holeman interview confirms there is crime scene DNA.
Hendricks is close to loved ones, reports Feb.13th. is especially hard. Let's send collective thoughts from our hearts at this time. .

 

[SharonNeedles]

Before this theory grows legs, there has been no MSM or even a still-standing post in the thread that suggests LE planted a bullet.

I recall a poster hinted at that, but it’s been deleted, so I hereby retract it as on the list of potential conspiracy theories that have been noted.

Hope that helps.

As near as I can ascertain, that was a story circulating on social media.

 

[Betty P]

I did actually and found it to be pompous and at times disrespectful 3 x "older than dirt". I'm not surprised, this seems to be the caliber of RA's Defense team and those associated with them, who also happen to be Defense related usually. It reminds of the saying "water seeks its own level".

There are good, professional Defense Attorneys out there, I've seen many in the cases on WS over the years, just not these.

It's a formal Motion to the Court, show some respect and professionalism, but after the FM, it seems like anything goes.

JMO

Allowing copies to be made of the graphic crime scene photos of the victims, later distributed on the internet is probably one of the most egregious and unprofessional acts I've seen in a long time.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Allowing copies to be made of the graphic crime scene photos of the victims, later distributed on the internet is probably one of the most egregious and unprofessional acts I've seen in a long time.

If some sort of punishment is not handed out for this behavior then the floodgates will be open and the legal process will be clown show that will take 5-10 years to get cases to trial.
Attorneys with such experience should have upheld the esteem of the court and alerted the court and the prosecutors when an error was made and discovery outline including the full legal names of MINOR witnesses was sent to a local social media content creator.
Attorneys with such vast experience in trial procedure should have known how to file a franks memorandum as confidential properly.
Attorneys trusted with high profile cases with sensitive material should have procedures in place to protect such material and not allow access to known or unknown third parties through neglect or otherwise.
Licensed defense attorneys should understand the scope of sharing strategy and have procedures in place to not allow individuals that have not been thoroughly vetted and under signed disclosures access to their work product or discovery.

I understand that attorneys and make mistakes. But this many serious mistakes by the same attorney on one case is baffling.
If there are not real consequences for attorneys that pull these shenanigans, there will be nothing to deter them from repeating it in the future.

 

[Emma Peel]

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JMO

Is this a comment?
Sorry, I don't understand the comment.

Here the Defense is requesting clarification information as to a direct contempt hearing when the contempt motion contains allegations that specifically are not examples of direct contempt.

In other words, the Prosecution technically messed up its filing, filed it in the wrong Court, and failed to cite allegations that met the standard of the contempt law cited for the hearing.

This Prosecution error was independently addressed in detail by last week's Motion For Summary Denial (of the Contempt Motion/Hearing). That motion was submitted (on the docket) by Habeus Appellate attorney Ausbrook - the motion explained the law and the P's erroneous Contempt filing (for more, refer to Ausbrook). Per Ausbrook, Gull's court has no jurisdiction over the Motion the P has filed.

I would think the P is free to withdraw this error-ridden Contempt motion, then refile a legally correct revision with relevant legal citations and supporting allegations - and file it with the correct Court. The other solution is for Gull to deny it, as Ausbrook recommends.

 

[lightofmine99]

Allowing copies to be made of the graphic crime scene photos of the victims, later distributed on the internet is probably one of the most egregious and unprofessional acts I've seen in a long time.

I was not aware photos of the girls had been released to the public and/or leaked online. The defense did this? I'm confused, I apologize.

 

[Emma Peel]

Maybe he considered that "older than dirt" was a kinder, more amusing way of saying: "You should know better"?

I tend to agree it was harsh.

I took the harshness as directed toward the Prosecution (McL).
(Ausbrook's actually doing the P & the Court a solid here. But he's not going to weigh in without smacking the P upside the head for a really irresponsible Contempt filing.)

Ausbrook did Gull's research for her, and gave Gull the law she needs to dismiss the P's Contempt motion to avoid hearing something she a) has no juridisction over and b) a motion that has no relevant evidence in it.

IMO, this error is very embarrassing for McL.
Gull still has a chance to save face here.

We'll see. JMHO.

 

[snooptroop88]

Does anyone have any thoughts at all on this "keepsake bullet"? I've never heard of such a thing. I haven't known many gun owners, but I've known some. Why would anyone want or have a "keepsake bullet"? Maybe a first hunting trip or something? Military funeral? How common is this? I can't imagine it's very common, but maybe I'm just not up on this and it's a "thing," I have no idea. When I searched it, it doesn't seem like it is. And from what I remember, it was in a wooden box in a drawer in the bedroom. I am still trying to figure out some reason why anyone would have a "keepsake bullet" in the first place. But I'm also wondering about the wooden box & the location of the bedroom. I'm just curious, is this some kind of "thing" that is a popular custom or tradition? Part of a trend?

 

[zh0r4]

Thread #161, post #122 is an example, although the poster doesn’t implicitly say LE planted it. I felt that it was insinuated.

Thread #167, post #267 describes how the bullet in evidence may not be the same one found at the crime scene.

That said, I understand your point, and the potential impact is that defense may call for the bullet to be excluded and not be admissible as evidence if the chain of custody was compromised.

I would like to understand the proposed implication of the potential loss of chain of custody of the bullet. All we have now is that the document wasn’t signed, which could just be a harmless omission.

Would the lack of signature be enough to exclude the bullet? Would defense have to support a theory that there was willful manipulation of the bullet‘s custody for it to be tossed out?

Lack of chain of custody doesn’t innately imply willful manipulation. It could be due to human error just like the loss of recordings is likely human error.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Lack of chain of custody doesn’t innately imply willful manipulation. It could be due to human error just like the loss of recordings is likely human error.

Thanks - I’m seeing that the CoC paperwork and procedures are crucial for admissible evidence. If the defense does challenge, the lack of a signature on each page could become a costly error to prosecution‘s case.

 

[Thepumalives]

Does anyone have any thoughts at all on this "keepsake bullet"? I've never heard of such a thing. I haven't known many gun owners, but I've known some. Why would anyone want or have a "keepsake bullet"? Maybe a first hunting trip or something? Military funeral? How common is this? I can't imagine it's very common, but maybe I'm just not up on this and it's a "thing," I have no idea. When I searched it, it doesn't seem like it is. And from what I remember, it was in a wooden box in a drawer in the bedroom. I am still trying to figure out some reason why anyone would have a "keepsake bullet" in the first place. But I'm also wondering about the wooden box & the location of the bedroom. I'm just curious, is this some kind of "thing" that is a popular custom or tradition? Part of a trend?

It’s pretty common in the hunting community to keep spent shell casings from memorable hunts (first deer for example), but I’ve also never heard it called a keepsake bullet before. Most people I know that keep them will write on them to mark the occasion, but who knows what RA was doing with his.

 

[steeltowngirl]

In remembrance of the girls, their families are holding an annual food drive and encouraging people outside Delphi to donate to food pantries near them.

Libby’s grandmother, Becky Patty, is also honoring Libby’s memory by sharing Facebook posts highlighting milestones and everyday events in her granddaughter’s life. Recently, she shared Libby’s official Oracle Softball team portrait and the recipe for vegan fettuccine alfredo, Libby wanted to try.

Delphi Murders: Where does the case stand 7 years later?

Tuesday marks seven years since 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German were murdered in Delphi, Indiana.

www.courttv.com

 

[sunshineray]

The bullet issue is one I've brought up more than once. The missing link of how bullet A became bullet Z.
Three pics of a bullet on/in the ground and one picture of a bullet in the lab. Nothing in between.
I've never claimed someone placed the bullet at the scene to frame RA.
I have questioned if the bullet could have been substituted between the scene and the la.b

After all, a lot of evidence can be lost between 2017 and 2022.

Snipped and BBM

"I have questioned if the bullet could have been substituted between the scene and the lab."

Can you please clarify what you mean here. It's confusing as this would have been long years before the RA search warrant was issued. What would the supposed substitution have been and why would it have possibly occured just a day or so after the murders?

 

[snooptroop88]

It’s pretty common in the hunting community to keep spent shell casings from memorable hunts (first deer for example), but I’ve also never heard it called a keepsake bullet before. Most people I know that keep them will write on them to mark the occasion, but who knows what RA was doing with his.

Much thanks on this. Agreed.

 

[susiQ]

Lebrato kind of walked that statement back:

<snipped & BBM>
“He’s always very respectful to us in our meetings with him,” Lebrato said. “I think he’s not guilty or innocent because I believe the presumption of innocence is one of the most important legal theories that we have. That presumption of innocence carries with him through every stage of the trial, until the jury has heard all the evidence, including closing arguments, and until they deliberate. That presumption of innocence follows him the whole way.”

And he also provided his thoughts on Judge Gull also:
“Judge Gull knows no other way than to be fair,” he said. “She does not play favorites. The Supreme Court didn’t pick her name out of a hat. They chose her for a specific reason. In their ruling, they unanimously voted that Judge Gull stays on this case.”

‘I’ve never seen so many twists and turns’: Former attorney for Delphi suspect Richard Allen discusses case

At least he’s willing to give RA the presumption of innocence. That’s more than he gets here from most.

He did get one thing wrong IMO, that being his comment about JG. Obviously the SCOIN didn’t feel she was being fair when she DQ’d RA’s attorneys without following proper procedure and granting the P the top request on his wish list. Hence R & B’s reinstatement. She’s an experienced judge. One would think she would know better. And how fair was her denial of the motion to move RA without granting a hearing? I guess my and Lebrato’s idea of “fair” are vastly different. JMHO.

 

[Megnut]

Bullet:

What makes more sense?

Someone planted it years ago in order to frame someone today?

Or

Chain of custody isn't straight forward?

It seems pretty well documented based on the little we know.

Was it between the girls at the time of the crime? IMO yes. May it have been stepped on, embedding it in the muddy soil? IMO maybe. Is it a match to other bullets cycled through the accused's gun? I believe it but I'm willing to hold judgment until I've heard from the experts.

That BG appears to have had a gun on him and a bullet was found, there's room for a 1:1 association. Compelling.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

A Question for people who still believe KAk is involved.

Why do you believe in a theory that his own Defense are not even using for trial?

Let’s be honest a predator who lures children is a lot easier pill to swollen than a far fetched cult. Yet the Defense are sayings it’s a Cult not KAK so that would indicate there is nothing there.

Mooo

It's seeming more and more to me that it's certainly within the realm of possibility that there could be a connection. anthony_shots account catfished Libby. In KAK's interrogation, KAK admits he used that account and another to catfish young girls. That a_shots account talked to Libby on the day she was murdered. Also in his interrogation, that account also spoke to a friend of Libby's after the murders insinuating that he (a_shots) and Libby were suppose to meet up the day she was murdered but she was a no show. Then you have KAK's internet searches about DNA and more. You have KAK's dropbox and Indiana launching the largest
S C A M investigation in it's history. There is more but that's a lot right there, IMO.

Now you have KAK being moved out of Wabash almost simultaneously as RA is arriving there.

This is all just theory...if RA had access to KAK's dropbox, he might also have had access to his catfishing account or information from it. Again just theorizing.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQtI60iqeEAxVVElkFHWaWAWIQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UCec4pq8ZIE22ETk6MKZ3

Indiana Incarcerated Database Search

 

[snooptroop88]

It's seeming more and more to me that it's certainly within the realm of possibility that there could be a connection. anthony_shots account catfished Libby. In KAK's interrogation, KAK admits he used that account and another to catfish young girls. That a_shots account talked to Libby on the day she was murdered. Also in his interrogation, that account also spoke to a friend of Libby's after the murders insinuating that he (a_shots) and Libby were suppose to meet up the day she was murdered but she was a no show. Then you have KAK's internet searches about DNA and more. You have KAK's dropbox and Indiana launching the largest
S C A M investigation in it's history. There is more but that's a lot right there, IMO.

Now you have KAK being moved out of Wabash almost simultaneously as RA is arriving there.

This is all just theory...if RA had access to KAK's dropbox, he might also have had access to his catfishing account or information from it. Again just theorizing.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQtI60iqeEAxVVElkFHWaWAWIQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UCec4pq8ZIE22ETk6MKZ3

Indiana Incarcerated Database Search

I heard one YouTuber ask the question of what the odds would be that you'd have someone like "Anthony Shots" waiting for you, but you were suddenly attacked and murdered by a completely different "someone." It's just too weird for words, literally. It's too strange.

 

[sunshineray]

I heard one YouTuber ask the question of what the odds would be that you'd have someone like "Anthony Shots" waiting for you, but you were suddenly attacked and murdered by a completely different "someone." It's just too weird for words, literally. It's too strange.

I think it's very possible KAK told and/or sold the things he acquired while catfishing young girls. The drop box mostly likely factors into his crimes, IMO...product and information.