Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[sunshineray]

That I can't answer for you.

Sorry, I should have put, rhetorical question.

 

[girlhasnoname]

In your opinion, what was so important about that spot that he dragged her body there?
I'm having a real hard time trying to imagine why the killer did that.

Why did RA leave Libby unclothed? Why was Abby killed clothed lying face down where she lay? Why does any killer do anything of the vile, vicious things they do?

We will never understand their sick, disordered thinking, unless we have a killers mind.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Patrick Cicero - Blood Splatter Specialist

When on the stand when being cross examined:

a: He admitted it was just an alternate theory of the blood transfer - he couldn't say for certain that that's what happened.

b: He also agreed to it being a chaotic scene when it was put to him and also answered: "Yes" to it being impossible for him to recreate the scene.

Mindful and honest it seems.

I find blood spatter interesting in a way. I tried to learn how thin blood would spatter versus thick blood OR if it even made a difference. Didn't find much of value.

"Chaotic scene...impossible to recreate." What on earth? That goes way beyond what we know: bodies, branches, leaves and a piece of rope. Poor, poor girls.

 

[Kittybunny]

This is a good possibility.
EF made what sounds like incriminating statements. But, as you have stated, we don't have the full conversation or context.

If LE really thought that he was involved, we would know.

He is an easy target.

He willingly gave a mouth swab.
I can't help but wonder if he didn't understand why that was needed. He might have been trying to clarify what happens with his "spit".

The officers that looked at EF confirmed that there is nothing that connects him to the crime scene .

IMO it's because he wasn't there.

BBM. This is exactly what I think happened. The minute I read that EH made that supposedly incriminating statement ONLY AFTER providing his saliva, it clicked. It’s possible LE even explained it that way to him. “We need to check to see if someone spit on the girls.” Per usual, another Defense Nothingburger with a side of Hyperbole Sauce.

Trial cannot come soon enough. In the meantime, the insane merry-go-round of dead horses will continue to get beaten even after being debunked in actual hearings. Is anyone on either side of the fence going to change their mind at this point? Neigh, I say.

I wish I could completely quit this thread for my own sanity, but I’ve invested too much and am committed to seeing justice for these two girls who had their lives so cruelly stolen from them. So Ignore button and lurking till trial it is!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Why did RA leave Libby unclothed? Why was Abby killed clothed lying face down where she lay? Why does any killer do anything of the vile, vicious things they do?

We will never understand their sick, disordered thinking, unless we have a killers mind.

MOO

I guess I can understand, to some degree, the re-dressing. Face down to control the blood flow?
I'm stuck on the dragging to a specific spot. Did he have something there that we don't know about? What makes it chaotic?

 

[MiniMoo]

At the hearings, the blood expert Cisero said Libby was dragged a distance (probably from an area by a tree her blood was found on), thru her numerous pools of blood, to the spot she was found.

I understand it was one large and maybe 2-3 smaller pools of blood. Libby is thought to have been dragged through her blood about 7-8 feet by pulling her body along the ground using her left arm.

 

[Tealgrove]

The problem is, there were still a lot of cars still in the parking lot. Some first responders and locals and family members and friends continued to search until dawn. So if the ragtag group of Odinists returned to the scene of the crime, they would have seen the vehicles and probably would have seen flashlights bouncing around in the darkness.

Really hard to believe they would have returned with the girls knowing they could easily walk into some cops or vigilantes or angry family members. Let alone take the time to perform a ritual sacrifice while voices are calling out the girls names all around them.

I think some were also parked at the cemetery, which is EXTREMELY close to where the girls were found. Correct me if I’m wrong. So this whole thing about coming back and taking them away, bringing them back is really far fetched IMO.

For the killer, or anyone coming back in sheer darkness to find Libby’s phone, turn it on, turn it off and then leave it there is totally a nonstarter for me. It is nonsensical. Add to that there were some people still there.

For what it’s worth, LE has repeatedly said the girls were found where they were killed.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

I agree with you on the unreliable witness accounts. MOO

But I'm very interested in his confessions.

Yes, I think we are all very interested in hearing the confessions, although hearing the same thing, we may still see things quite differently.

The P would have to present some jaw dropping evidence for me to believe RA wielded the knife. Perhaps some peripheral involvement? We shall see. Nothing I’ve seen thus far convinces me of his guilt. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

In your opinion, what was so important about that spot that he dragged her body there?
I'm having a real hard time trying to imagine why the killer did that.

I'm thinking it was a simple decision. That's where he'd placed Abby, killed Abby or fatally wounded Abby. I think that Libby tried to run and, like the blood expert described, RA sliced at her neck from behind, bringing her to her knees by the tree which she touched with her bloody hand. He dragged her back to put them together, side by side. Was there a deeper reasoning for that? Maybe. Could he have taken pictures? Maybe. Or he just wanted them to look a certain way, for whatever reasons he had. Again, I wonder why he said he did what he did, the way he did it. Rhetorical question but it has been testified that he gave details within all those confessions and incriminating statements. Trial can't come soon enough, AJMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Fully MOO - it can be but not always; my thoughts on that (please take with grain of salt, IMO etc) is that if the body is already fully cold due to ambient temperature, they may record ambient temp and transport the body first and take a liver temp once the pathologist is in attendance. I obviously have no idea what was done in this case though, as it was a pretty extreme circumstance to find them murdered like that.

Below is a snip from the article linked. Do you have any idea if/how no heat or refrigeration would affect a body temperature? The article doesn't say when those problems began so it may be a non-issue in this case. I'm just curious.

New Coroner copes with leftover problems - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the airbags and it possibly needs a wheel bearing. In addition, Enoch said there are outstanding bills, one from last February, which should be paid immediately. She said the department’s records, which she should use for background research, do not seem to be accurate.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I guess I can understand, to some degree, the re-dressing. Face down to control the blood flow?
I'm stuck on the dragging to a specific spot. Did he have something there that we don't know about? What makes it chaotic?

I think Libby was stabbed once in the neck and staggered closer to the tree. Another 2 blows put her on the ground. I think RA had more rage towards Libby than Abby for fighting back harder or for other twisted personal reasons?

Finding a scene like that would be beyond chaotic and the things nightmares are made of. IDK, I don't like to dwell on that part of this crime. Those poor girls suffered fear beyond our understanding and it's so very sad for them and their families who have endured many years of emotional pain by fake and sensationalized rumors.

I just want true justice, the right person, whom I believe to be RA, to go to trial, have the evidence presented, and for a jury of his peers to decide his guilt or innocence. This has gone on far too long for everyone. If the jury finds RA innocent I will accept that, but I honestly do not think that will happen here.

This has been a long journey here on WS, many threads, many thoughts, many emotions, many words, but I still believe that each one of us want the killer of these girls to face justice.

MOO

 

[Vern]

Who says it was 'powered off' at 18 minutes?

No one who has testified under oath.

Under oath it was testified to that the girls were abducted at 2:14pm, 13 February;
Under oath it was testfified to that, 'all movement of the phone ceased after 18 minutes';
Under oath it was testified to that the murder timeline was between 2:30pm and 3:30pm on the 13th.

The Sheriff has stated that they have evidence to prove that it was all over by 3:30pm on the 13th.

2:14pm + 18 minutes = 2:32pm (IMO - 1st murder occurs at this time; that of Abby as the phone was found under her and it's movement ceased);
And Libby's murder occured after that, but prior to 3:30pm as "it was all over by 3:30pm" (staging etc would have occured after actual death, so perhaps that staging is what was "all over" by 3:30pm on the 13th of February.

IMO, the crime scene was also well down in the bottom of the gorge. Hard to connect with towers for signal. To me it's quite possible that at 4:33am on 14th February that one of the numerous cell towers finally managed to connect with the phone for a moment and thereby sent in the flurry of texts that had been accumulating/waiting for connectivity since a tower had last reached it for a connection. IMO, no one returned in that terrain, in the dark, sans flashlight (which surely would have been observed by those still at the scene [although not searching overnight precisely because of the terrain] in the midst of the night to turn that phone "on". Perhaps even, this is where a "woodland creature" may come into play: perhaps at 4:33am one of those creatures bumped Abby's leg just enough to expose the phone and for a tower to finally reach it for a moment. There were deer about the girls when they were found and that is what drew the attention of those who found them.

Judge again denies Delphi suspect Richard Allen's motion to dismiss

Special Judge Frances Gull says there's no evidence that prosecutors "acted in bad faith."

www.jconline.com

Delphi murders: What we know and don't know 5 years after Abby and Libby were killed

The Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Liberty German are unsolved. From Kegan Kline to Ron Logan , here are the latest Delphi murders updates.

www.indystar.com

Terrifying new evidence on Delphi victim's last moments pins trial on phone

A CELL phone belonging to one of the Delphi murder victims will likely play a key role in their accused killer’s forthcoming trial, two experts say. Richard Allen, a 51-year-old married fathe…

www.the-sun.com

 

[iamshadow21]

Below is a snip from the article linked. Do you have any idea if/how no heat or refrigeration would affect a body temperature? The article doesn't say when those problems began so it may be a non-issue in this case. I'm just curious.

New Coroner copes with leftover problems - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the airbags and it possibly needs a wheel bearing. In addition, Enoch said there are outstanding bills, one from last February, which should be paid immediately. She said the department’s records, which she should use for background research, do not seem to be accurate.

It's my understanding that the girls' bodies were immediately taken to Terre Haute, and did not linger in the local area, but I don't have a link right now. I'll see if I can find one.

EDIT: this timeline says that they were autopsied in Terre Haute 'earlier that day' ie. day after they were found.

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

 

[sunshineray]

That's one of those statements that I think could possibly be intentionally false. Ricky had quite a unique knife collection as noted by the SW.

There is a reason this DT has fought like rabid dogs to get that SW thrown out, considering their client is factually innocent, why would they still be so overly concerned? Nothing to see here at an innocent man's home. Something they recovered during that search ties RA to the scene IMO.

JMO

Yes, I agree and I think it's more than the cycled round found between the victim's bodies that supposedly matches the gun recovered in the search of RA's house. There's something more I think. We shall see, if the trial happens as scheduled. MO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Just wanted to add that RA had a mental assessment scheduled at 10am on April 14th 2023 if you want to add that to the proposed timeline.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

It’s on page 7 section 28 in States Response to Defense’s Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping order.

It also spells out his conditions if he were moved to Cass County in section 13 which may be of interest to some IMO.

Edit: had wrong year

Thank you. I added it to the list.

Judge rules Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to be moved to county jail

It is not yet known where Allen will be housed or when he will be moved to a new jail.

www.wthr.com

March 23, 2023: Allen was depressed and withdrawn and said he “was not straight in the head."
April 4, 2023: Allen suffered from insomnia, hopelessness, was suicidal, and stated “death would bring relief to him."
April 13, 2023: Allen was exhibiting “bizarre” behavior, including consuming his own feces, and was suffering from a “grave disability.” The prison psychologist ordered Allen receive an involuntary injection of psychotropic medication.
April 14, 2023: Mental health evaluation 10 am **** See added documentation
April 21, 2023: Allen’s thoughts were disjointed and he was saying “strange things.” Wala discussed that he might be considered incompetent to stand trial.
May 3, 2023: Allen said he wanted to confess details of the crime.
May 18, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
May 23, 2023: Allen diagnosed as suffering from stress-induced psychosis.
June 8, 2023: Allen’s depression “at its peak,” noted trembling, knees buckling.
June 16, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
Late June, 2023: Allen’s mental health improving.
October 2023: Allen was proclaiming his innocence.
Allen’s defense team claims the confessions fall within the timeframe of Allen’s severe psychosis diagnosed by prison psychologists.

Pg 7 States Response to Defense’s Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping
**** https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[susiQ]

It's difficult to say with nothing solid being presented but I doubt this is a first time for this person. It sounds coordinated and experienced. "Guys down the hill" so cold so calculated not the rush one would expect from a first timer. Just speculation though. If the bodies were staged I would be very surprised if this person didn't have experience with it.

It is interesting that there is in fact an individual from the Delphi area that posted a pic to his FB (prior to the murders) eerily similar to the crime scene, however only one “body” in that pic. Surprisingly, local LE appeared to have “lost” it and the D had to travel to Georgia to retrieve this evidence.
Pg 48 of FM

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

pdfhost.io

 

[sunshineray]

The problem is, there were still a lot of cars still in the parking lot. Some first responders and locals and family members and friends continued to search until dawn. So if the ragtag group of Odinists returned to the scene of the crime, they would have seen the vehicles and probably would have seen flashlights bouncing around in the darkness.

Really hard to believe they would have returned with the girls knowing they could easily walk into some cops or vigilantes or angry family members. Let alone take the time to perform a ritual sacrifice while voices are calling out the girls names all around them.

My opinion, it's ludicrous to think that someone would have returned to bring their bodies back there when so many were searching for them thru the night. Bringing bloody dead bodies back into the woods in darkness when they could have driven them somewhere else where there was nobody around. Makes no sense at all, AJMO

 

[MiniMoo]

I find blood spatter interesting in a way. I tried to learn how thin blood would spatter versus thick blood OR if it even made a difference. Didn't find much of value.

"Chaotic scene...impossible to recreate." What on earth? That goes way beyond what we know: bodies, branches, leaves and a piece of rope. Poor, poor girls.

I definitely feel for Abby and Libby as well as their families.

Chaotic is what was used so you could be right with the leaves, branches, bodies and...

Where did you get piece of rope from?

 

[iamshadow21]

I definitely feel for Abby and Libby as well as their families.

Chaotic is what was used so you could be right with the leaves, branches, bodies and...

Where did you get piece of rope from?

It's mentioned in the first Franks, so have your salt cellar at the ready.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

RSBM
While this is true, we have no way of knowing if BG came across from the far side, passed the girls and then doubled back behind them and then used a weapon to get them DTH. If BG came from the other side, up from the road, nobody would have seen him on the trail side. May have been RA’s misfortune to have worn a blue or black jacket and jeans that day, but it’s just what some guys wear, daily!

With regard to the dress code in those parts, after hubby died late last year I found 3 blue jackets just like the one BG had on. Oh, and he wore jeans a lot and often hiking boots or runners. I live in a small town surrounded by farms. I see a lot of middle aged guys that look just like BG. JMO

But people did see him and Libby captured his approach on video. Audio confirms the girls were concerned about him approaching them. It can be determined, because of Libby's video and her picture of Abby, where that took place. MO